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The Problem With Our Fanbase


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#31 panthers55

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:16 PM

Josh Thomas had been with us since last year.

What are the chances that he spontaneously hit some huge development milestone mid-season this year when he had been here a full season and a half, IIRC?

And I don't think he replaced Norman, I believe he stepped in with Gamble's injury and Captain moving inside more often after that. Norman continued to start initially. And honestly, I saw no big change in Norman's play from the beginning of the year to his demotion. So what changed there? He was a great tackler, made great plays on the ball when he was in position, but the problem was he gave too much cushion as was rarely ever in good position.

As for Joe Adams, it's like I said... I just threw his name out there among others, in hindsight, he shouldn't have been included because he earned his demotion. I'm not a Joe Adams-guy, so to speak. I was excited when we drafted him, but that quickly dissipated early on after he started muffing punts. My bigger point was that Nakamura was doing the equivalent to what Adams was doing on defense and he wasn't deactivated.

Yes, everything on our end is done in hindsight because we don't see what is going on day-to-day at every practice. But, in a case like Nakamura's, Rivera could've suited up himself and played better than Nakamura was.

I think Rivera plays favorites, and often, it isn't justified. Deangelo IS the prime example there. The argument with Gettis on the sidelines during one of the games when he was inactive comes to mind as well. Naanee last year anyone?

As to your point about Chud being the problem offensively and with some of the personnel being misused... There's a reason Rivera is the HC. He oversees ALL OF THAT. Especially the general philosophy and approach on both sides of the ball. If what Chud was doing wasn't working, then he needed to step in and say so and change it. Instead, he threw Deangelo under the bus and rode with the read option until Hurney got fired and they went back to traditional runs against Chicago.

Rivera gets blame because he deserves blame. He told on himself numerous times in pressers that demonstrated how dysfunctional his staff was, as well as his own decision making.

No, he doesn't deserve all of the blame and I'm not blaming him for all of it. But, he should be held responsible for game-related management/decision making because he oversees all of it... Or at least he was supposed to. And when you are the head guy, as Rivera said himself, the buck stops with him.

We won a few games and now people forget all of the problems that got us in the hole we were in to begin with.


You can throw out all the justifications for why you want him gone and you will find people who agree with you. And you can find some situations where personnel-wise he made some mistakes but your context is to look for the negative and try to find issues even to the point of manufacturing them. For example, no one would say that Nakamura was the answer after the Atlanta game but to that point he was the best free safety we had against the run and he was likely the best of the rest in practice against the pass. I think everyone thought he was going to better than he was and it didn't turn out. You could say that everyone should have been ready to step in for him but it likely took time to give everyone else enough reps with the 1s and game experience in order to move everyone around. Add to that the fact that injuries caused shuffling lineups most of the second half.

I can't tell if you are like most of us and are disappointed in the season and need to argue and bitch about the team and this is the way you chose to do it. You are obviously unable to see any of the positives and only focus on the negatives. Like stages that people go through when faced with an emotional issue, perhaps you can get through this and move on. I am not happy with the first 10 games of the year but instead of all the problems I see all the things we actually did right. I look at 4 or 5 plays where the coaches made the right decisions and the players didn't execute as the difference between 7-9 and 10-6. I also see the 4 or 5 boneheaded coaching decisions that could have made the difference between 10-6 and 12-4. I see what could have been and what I expect to happen next year.

Why am I optimistic? Because while it hasn't been at anywhere close to his level, I have coached teams over the years and I know that when I screwed up I was always my hardest critic. And while I might make the same mistake again, it won't be frequent and I will make steps to prevent it at all costs. I agonized about how I screwed up in private. But like him, I wasn't going to discuss it in public. I firmly believe he is going to review everything and learn from his mistakes. It is not bad to make a mistake, it is bad to keep repeating it and not learn from the experience. I think he will and you think he won't. Difference is I am not on a mission to tell everyone we need to fire him. I am fine with whatever the Panthers do. After they have the most at stake and have insider info we don't.

#32 Panther53521

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:31 PM

If we keep the same complete coaching staff from this year and we start the first game next year in the read option .... I will be so tempted to go on a killing spree.

#33 Toundra

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:32 PM

the whole board



Not the whole board hopefully.

#34 heelsrule1988

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:43 PM

(sex)

Marry me. That may or may not be no homo.

#35 carolina-chuck

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:48 PM

Just win baby

#36 Baby Andy Reid

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:51 PM

Not so much about Joe Adams, but his situation is a microcosm of Rivera's problems in personnel management...

It's really about benching Joe Adams for muffs, but leaving a guy like Nakamura out there to get torched and allow our defense to be a living, breathing, sieve. Or keeping him on the bench in favor of Armanti and his breakaway speed featuring his legendary 6th gear.

There seems to be little to no reasoning as to why or when he makes the moves he does regarding personnel and Adams was among those that found themselves in Rivera's doghouse repeatedly while others continued starting/playing who shouldn't have been.


Adams deserved his spot on the bench. Dont defend him. If you are saying Ron was inconsistent with benching players, i guess i agree with that.

#37 Proudiddy

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:05 PM

You can throw out all the justifications for why you want him gone and you will find people who agree with you. And you can find some situations where personnel-wise he made some mistakes but your context is to look for the negative and try to find issues even to the point of manufacturing them. For example, no one would say that Nakamura was the answer after the Atlanta game but to that point he was the best free safety we had against the run and he was likely the best of the rest in practice against the pass. I think everyone thought he was going to better than he was and it didn't turn out. You could say that everyone should have been ready to step in for him but it likely took time to give everyone else enough reps with the 1s and game experience in order to move everyone around. Add to that the fact that injuries caused shuffling lineups most of the second half.

I can't tell if you are like most of us and are disappointed in the season and need to argue and bitch about the team and this is the way you chose to do it. You are obviously unable to see any of the positives and only focus on the negatives. Like stages that people go through when faced with an emotional issue, perhaps you can get through this and move on. I am not happy with the first 10 games of the year but instead of all the problems I see all the things we actually did right. I look at 4 or 5 plays where the coaches made the right decisions and the players didn't execute as the difference between 7-9 and 10-6. I also see the 4 or 5 boneheaded coaching decisions that could have made the difference between 10-6 and 12-4. I see what could have been and what I expect to happen next year.

Why am I optimistic? Because while it hasn't been at anywhere close to his level, I have coached teams over the years and I know that when I screwed up I was always my hardest critic. And while I might make the same mistake again, it won't be frequent and I will make steps to prevent it at all costs. I agonized about how I screwed up in private. But like him, I wasn't going to discuss it in public. I firmly believe he is going to review everything and learn from his mistakes. It is not bad to make a mistake, it is bad to keep repeating it and not learn from the experience. I think he will and you think he won't. Difference is I am not on a mission to tell everyone we need to fire him. I am fine with whatever the Panthers do. After they have the most at stake and have insider info we don't.


I don't see what I manufactured or fabricated in my argument. All evidence shows that the guys who played behind Nakamura were better than he was. You are adding the caveat that those guys behind him were probably not ready and that's why they weren't playing ahead of him to begin with. Isn't that the same kind of "manufacturing" you are accusing me of? We don't know either way. We don't know if they were ready and we don't know if they weren't ready. So, both of us are making assumptions based on the angle we're approaching it from.

And I think it's easier to assume they were ready because, such as in the Nakamura situation, Martin had previous starting experience. Despite his numerous flubs in his first two seasons, it was clear he was a better athlete and a superior pass defender compared to Nakamura. So, I don't get how he wouldn't have been "ready." Then once the favorites started getting exposed or injured, and these guys were forced into the lineup, our defense rose to a Top 10 level. That's not coincidence, IMO. It points to his mismanagement of personnel. But, you could also credit RR or McDermott for their scheme/gameplanning the last few games of the season.

And it isn't my intent to argue with anyone. Yes, I'm pissy, angry, disappointed, and any other negative adjective you can come up with for this season because we didn't play to our potential AGAIN, and as a diehard Panther fan, that means we have to wait another 9 months for meaningful football. That is depressing. And it shouldn't be that way with the talent we have. That's why I'm pointing at the coaching staff.

And just like you, I take inventory every year, and these meaningless wins always lure us into believing next year will be different.

If Rivera remains, I have no choice but to hope for the best and pull for him because he's our coach. I don't care who the coach is, as long as they lead us to wins. All I'm saying is that from what I've seen so far, I don't think he's that guy. I understand coaches aren't perfect, they make plenty of mistakes, but it was the wealth of mistakes and the kind of mistakes that he has made that give me pause.

I don't rally for people to lose their jobs. I don't revel in it. I'm just saying I don't think he's the right guy for us and we should move on by providing anecdotal examples and coming to a conclusion through inductive reasoning.

I'm not trying to force you to adopt my line of thinking, I'm just responding to your questions. We are all fans and we all have our own opinions, and that's why we're here - to discuss them.

And if you recall my posting history on this board, I always start the season optimistic and I'm usually so throughout the offseason (with occasional jokes about how bad we've been), but this season leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

#38 Proudiddy

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:07 PM

Adams deserved his spot on the bench. Dont defend him. If you are saying Ron was inconsistent with benching players, i guess i agree with that.

I'm not defending him, as I said, he was a bad example. I clarified what I was saying in subsequent posts... Yes, I'm saying he was inconsistent in benching poorly performing players and in turn, he was also inconsistent in giving playing time to guys that deserved it - or at least a chance at it.

#39 panthers55

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:22 PM

And if you recall my posting history on this board, I always start the season optimistic and I'm usually so throughout the offseason (with occasional jokes about how bad we've been), but this season leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.


Yeah you used to be positive and one of the good posters on this board. I can understand getting angry and being upset. But if you are the same person who used to post here, then you will also stop and look at the bigger picture which is not what went wrong this year but who is best leading the Panthers next year. And you will see that Rivera has them playing better right now than they have played in a decade. And that is all you can know right now. Not how they will play next year or who is going to be drafted, etc. And right now Rivera has the team playing potentially better than any other team in the league bar none.

All that talk about meaningless games is really just talk. Players play for pride and I know the Panthers wanted to kick some ass on Sunday. And the Saints didn't want to have a losing season and get beaten in the dome and swept by us this year. I don't think you can find a coach who can make the players we had do any better the last quarter of the season. I just think he will be able to pick up where he left off. Everyone gets it.... With anyone else it is starting all over again. And perhaps going backwards.

#40 MadHatter

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:32 PM

How quickly we forgive and forget.

If we keep RR as the head coach, so be it, we have to be behind him and hope he is the right guy for the job.

Problem is, there is a plethora of evidence against that, yet we get a couple meaningless wins at the end of the year, decreasing the value of our draft pick in the process, and everyone is feeling good. Everyone starts coming around to the idea that, "hey, we did this at the end of the season this year, so we'll do it at the beginning of next season! It's all good!"

No. No. No. It's not "all good."

There are major problems.

I've seen people completely about face on several issues that have been plaguing this team as a result of our team racking up moral victories, because they sure as hell didn't mean anything in terms of success or progression as a franchise.

One issue:

Deangelo. People are on here blowing him off, minus a few who have hardlined about preferring Stew over him all along and lamenting that he is overpaid.

The rest are talking up how they're so happy we have him, and most likely feel like Marty Hurney with a pen in hand after his performance yesterday.

I never gave up on DWill and knew they were misusing him and mistreating him for that matter. Forget his cap number, look at his production when used correctly.

Now, this brings me back to my point on Coach Rivera.

Just Week 5, the whole board was looking forward to trading DWill because he was "old, washed up, useless, overpaid, unproductive, etc., etc."

Now, he's out there looking like Barry Sanders-lite the last few weeks and everyone "told you so..." Amirite?

You see, Deangelo was Denagelo the whole time. Rivera was going about his regular no rhyme, or reason coaches' pet favoritism game and benched him saying he wasn't what they were looking for in the offense. The offense sucked. He benched a guy with gamebreaking ability. Makes sense, right?

This isn't the only example of personnel mismanagement.

Armanti.

Joe Adams.

David Gettis.

Nakamura and Martin.

Josh Norman.

Josh Thomas didn't start until he was forced to.

The list goes on and on.

Again, how quickly we forget.

That's just the personnel side of things, but think of how heavy some of those things have loomed and will loom as we progress into the offseason and into next season. The Gettis and Deangelo situations bother me the most.

I look at it as though any one category of coaching could have him fired for his performance in that area alone... When you combine them, I have no idea how everyone is okay with keeping him. Did we not learn from Foxy? These moral victories at the end of the year literally mean nothing. We go into almost every offseason with that "well, we have something to build on now and we'll be better next season because of it" mentality, and each year, with a subpar coaching effort, we get shown up early and never recover. We don't win the games that matter. That has been the problem since 2009.

Again, it's looking like he's staying, so as a fan, I am forced to support him. But, in now way do I support the decision, and I wish our fanbase would stay as passionate about their convictions versus getting caught up in the hype of meaningless wins.

/rant


Benched a guy with game breaking ability? Lol

Adams was benched because he kept fumbling...not coaching mismanagement.

#41 Proudiddy

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:33 PM

Yeah you used to be positive and one of the good posters on this board. I can understand getting angry and being upset. But if you are the same person who used to post here, then you will also stop and look at the bigger picture which is not what went wrong this year but who is best leading the Panthers next year. And you will see that Rivera has them playing better right now than they have played in a decade. And that is all you can know right now. Not how they will play next year or who is going to be drafted, etc. And right now Rivera has the team playing potentially better than any other team in the league bar none.

All that talk about meaningless games is really just talk. Players play for pride and I know the Panthers wanted to kick some ass on Sunday. And the Saints didn't want to have a losing season and get beaten in the dome and swept by us this year. I don't think you can find a coach who can make the players we had do any better the last quarter of the season. I just think he will be able to pick up where he left off. Everyone gets it.... With anyone else it is starting all over again. And perhaps going backwards.

I'm sorry, I couldn't make out the rest of your post as I was too distracted by the stinging sensation left by your backhand, lol.

Nah, I read it and I agree we don't know what the future holds, and as I said, I hope he is the guy. Yes, the team played better at the end of the year, but we always do. My concern is winning when things are a stake - like a playoff berth. When Rivera starts out a season with a win and beats a team when all those things are on the line, then I will believe in him. Until then, I don't know... All I can do is hope for the best.

And again, referencing my posting history, I AM the same poster of old. As you mentioned in an earlier post, I'm going through he various stages of emotion, and right now, I'm still angry and disappointed in realizing that we just lost another season.

#42 Proudiddy

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:35 PM

Benched a guy with game breaking ability? Lol

Adams was benched because he kept fumbling...not coaching mismanagement.

Umm, the "gamebreaking ability" guy was Deangelo.

Nothing was gamebreaking about Joe Adams... Well, maybe gamebreaking in favor of the opponent when he gave them the ball back.

#43 panthers55

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:46 PM

I'm sorry, I couldn't make out the rest of your post as I was too distracted by the stinging sensation left by your backhand, lol.

Nah, I read it and I agree we don't know what the future holds, and as I said, I hope he is the guy. Yes, the team played better at the end of the year, but we always do. My concern is winning when things are a stake - like a playoff berth. When Rivera starts out a season with a win and beats a team when all those things are on the line, then I will believe in him. Until then, I don't know... All I can do is hope for the best.

And again, referencing my posting history, I AM the same poster of old. As you mentioned in an earlier post, I'm going through he various stages of emotion, and right now, I'm still angry and disappointed in realizing that we just lost another season.

Didn't mean it to come across as an attack. I just meant that when you were more even keeled in your attitude your posts were more balanced as well. More recently they have been predictable and negative. Just not like you......

Anyone who is a Panthers fan wants the team to do well and return to the playoffs. We just differ on who we think can lead us. I saw enough with Rivera to give him another year. But then again I wasn't so ready to ride Fox out on a rail either until he gave up in 2010. But if the team goes a different direction, I will be fine as well. After all I am a Panthers fan for better or worse. I just hope for better and soon. I really think next year is our year. I know I said it last year but I really get the sense that 2012 was a flashback to 2004 all over again.........

#44 Sword

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:49 PM

For a team that is trying to be like the Steeler's firing a coach after two years is not part of that agenda.

#45 Proudiddy

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:49 PM

Didn't mean it to come across as an attack. I just meant that when you were more even keeled in your attitude your posts were more balanced as well. More recently they have been predictable and negative. Just not like you......

Anyone who is a Panthers fan wants the team to do well and return to the playoffs. We just differ on who we think can lead us. I saw enough with Rivera to give him another year. But then again I wasn't so ready to ride Fox out on a rail either until he gave up in 2010. But if the team goes a different direction, I will be fine as well. After all I am a Panthers fan for better or worse. I just hope for better and soon. I really think next year is our year. I know I said it last year but I really get the sense that 2012 was a flashback to 2004 all over again.........

I hope so man... Maybe Prisco was right in his prediction of "taking another step back" before we take one forward.


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