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Kobe Bryant doesn't get it

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Where's BWOOD on this topic?
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[quote name='ZB1224' timestamp='1357268418' post='2075822']
Serious question... have you watched a Lakers game this year? If so, have you watched more than 1 or 2?

First you say that Steve Nash has played all season, then you said that Kobe is taking 30+ shots every night to get 25-30 points, as well as some other totally false stuff. It's hard to take you seriously if you can't at least act like you don't absolutely despise Kobe.
[/quote]

Why would I despise Kobe? I have watched several Lakers games as I have watched Kobe over nearly 17 seasons.

It makes absolutely zero sense that Kobe Bryant averages nearly as many shots per game as Gasol and Howard combined.

When you look at the Heat, Lebron is averaging 18.7 shots per game, Wade averages about 15.4 shots per game, and Bosh averages 12.3 shots per game

In LA Kobe averages 21.8 shots pers game, Gasol averages 11.6 shots per game, and Howard only averages 10.7 shots per game.

Unless those numbers start to even out, the Lakers are not going to reach their full potential. Because how can you team reach its full potential when there is only one guy taking all the shots?

There is a reason why a guy like Lebron can take a team whose second best player was Antwan Jamison (the guy who doesn't even get off the bench in LA because they are so talented) and lead them to 61 wins, but Kobe with two all-star post players is struggling to get to .500.

All I am saying is that Kobe is great, he just tries to do too much, and it usually hurts his team.

PS- When you account for Kobe's shots that result in free throws, he is shooting close to 30 times a game. I definitely exaggerated to make a point though, so for that I apologize.

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[quote name='teeray' timestamp='1357284538' post='2076146']
Why would I despise Kobe? I have watched several Lakers games as I have watched Kobe over nearly 17 seasons.

It makes absolutely zero sense that Kobe Bryant averages nearly twice as many shots per game as Gasol and Howard combined.

When you look at the Heat, Lebron is averaging 18.7 shots per game, Wade averages about 15.4 shots per game, and Bosh averages 12.3 shots per game

In LA Kobe averages 21.8 shots pers game, Gasol averages 11.6 shots per game, and Howard only averages 10.7 shots per game.

Unless those numbers start to even out, the Lakers are not going to reach their full potential. Because how can you team reach its full potential when there is only one guy taking all the shots?

There is a reason why a guy like Lebron can take a team whose second best player was Antwan Jamison (the guy who doesn't even get off the bench in LA because they are so talented) and lead them to 61 wins, but Kobe with two all-star post players is struggling to get to .500.

All I am saying is that Kobe is great, he just tries to do too much, and it usually hurts his team.

PS- When you account for Kobe's shots that result in free throws, he is shooting close to 30 times a game. I definitely exaggerated to make a point though, so for that I apologize.
[/quote]

The main reason that Kobe shoots 21.8 times per game compared to Gasol shooting 11.6 and Howard shooting 10.7 per game is the offense and the bigs ineffectiveness. Against Philly, Dwight went 1-7 and Gasol went 2-11... they have games similar to that quite often (though maybe not quite to that extent). Pau Gasol has been pretty terrible this season and is shooting less than 42% from the field and Dwight has ZERO post game at all.. 1/3 things happen when Dwight gets the ball in the post. 1. He gets stripped and it leads to a TO. 2. He faces up and drives by his defender. 3. He shoots a contested hook shot. (1 and 3 seem to happen the most often) Although I will agree with you that the Lakers need to get the ball in the post to Dwight more, it's not really Kobe's decision. Mike D'Antoni has gone on record stating that he thinks that post-up's are ineffective so he doesn't run them.

LeBron is the better all around player, and I'll give ya that. Kobe at this point in his career is a scorer and that's about it. However, prime Kobe Bryant took Pau Gasol, and Lamar Odom to the NBA Finals 3 straight years and won twice... with those guys as his best players... Gasol had made the All-Star team once in his career before he got to LA and had never sniffed the 2nd round. Lamar Odom has never made an All-Star team. His 3rd best player was hobbled Andrew Bynum who was always hurt and largely ineffectively most of the time. Although I will say that without Bynum I'm not sure that the Lakers would've made 3 straight finals (unless you replace him with another average C that can play defense well).

LeBron's Cavs team didn't have a ton of talent, but they were talented enough to make the finals in a VERY weak Eastern conference. Let's not pretend that having LeBron on your team is automatic success. I definitely respect your opinions on the Panthers and I usually agree with them as you probably know (liking post, giving pie, etc), but I just don't agree with your basketball opinions, at least when specifically talking about Kobe Bryant.

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[quote name='teeray' timestamp='1357284538' post='2076146']

It makes absolutely zero sense that Kobe Bryant averages nearly twice as many shots per game as Gasol and Howard [b]combined.[/b]


In LA Kobe averages 21.8 shots pers game, Gasol averages 11.6 shots per game, and Howard only averages 10.7 shots per game.

[/quote]

Did you fail basic fuging math? Since when is 21.8 nearly twice of 22.3 ???

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[quote name='C47' timestamp='1357305298' post='2076212']
Did you fail basic fuging math? Since when is 21.8 nearly twice of 22.3 ???
[/quote]
Touche' :blush:

I think I typed that around 2:30AM so maybe you can cut me a little bit of slack. :(

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[quote name='teeray' timestamp='1357306002' post='2076218']
Touche' :blush:

I think I typed that around 2:30AM so maybe you can cut me a little bit of slack. :(
[/quote]

Eh, I suppose....

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[quote name='ZB1224' timestamp='1357286097' post='2076152']
The main reason that Kobe shoots 21.8 times per game compared to Gasol shooting 11.6 and Howard shooting 10.7 per game is the offense and the bigs ineffectiveness. Against Philly, Dwight went 1-7 and Gasol went 2-11... they have games similar to that quite often (though maybe not quite to that extent). Pau Gasol has been pretty terrible this season and is shooting less than 42% from the field and Dwight has ZERO post game at all.. 1/3 things happen when Dwight gets the ball in the post. 1. He gets stripped and it leads to a TO. 2. He faces up and drives by his defender. 3. He shoots a contested hook shot. (1 and 3 seem to happen the most often) Although I will agree with you that the Lakers need to get the ball in the post to Dwight more, it's not really Kobe's decision. Mike D'Antoni has gone on record stating that he thinks that post-up's are ineffective so he doesn't run them.

LeBron is the better all around player, and I'll give ya that. Kobe at this point in his career is a scorer and that's about it. However, prime Kobe Bryant took Pau Gasol, and Lamar Odom to the NBA Finals 3 straight years and won twice... with those guys as his best players... Gasol had made the All-Star team once in his career before he got to LA and had never sniffed the 2nd round. Lamar Odom has never made an All-Star team. His 3rd best player was hobbled Andrew Bynum who was always hurt and largely ineffectively most of the time. Although I will say that without Bynum I'm not sure that the Lakers would've made 3 straight finals (unless you replace him with another average C that can play defense well).

LeBron's Cavs team didn't have a ton of talent, but they were talented enough to make the finals in a VERY weak Eastern conference. Let's not pretend that having LeBron on your team is automatic success. I definitely respect your opinions on the Panthers and I usually agree with them as you probably know (liking post, giving pie, etc), but I just don't agree with your basketball opinions, at least when specifically talking about Kobe Bryant.
[/quote]

I we agreed on everything, what would be the fun in that? ;)

The Lakers had Trevor Ariza/Metta World Peace, Derek Fisher, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, and Pau Gasol. That is a really, really good team.

Lebron's Cavs team had no talent.

But I will say this for Kobe. If I had to pick between Kobe and Lebron to be on my team I would take Lebron all day. But if I had to pick between Kobe or Lebron to have the ball on a final possession to win a game, I take Kobe all day long.

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if I had to pick between Kobe 10 years ago and Lebron anytime in his career...I'd take Kobe anyday!
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[quote name='Hawk' timestamp='1357314509' post='2076375']
if I had to pick between Kobe 10 years ago and Lebron anytime in his career...I'd take Kobe anyday!
[/quote]

Kobe 10 years ago isn't a whole lot different than Kobe right now.

Lebron is better than Kobe in every way. I mean that as far as overall impact on both sides, obviously Kobe is a better shooter than Lebron. And Lebron makes everyone else around him better. Kobe does not.

I hate to say it that way, but I don't look at it as much as an insult to Kobe as it is a compliment to Lebron.

However, I still have Kobe ahead of Lebron on my all-time list simply because he has 5 rings (or 2 ;)). But if Lebron wins just one more title he will leapfrog Kobe on my list.

Anyone who thinks that Kobe ever has been as good as Lebron is playing right now, is either a fool or a Lakers fan. Again that is a compliment to Lebron, not an insult to Kobe.

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all comparisons are based on personal opinion...happens in every sport!!


I'll stick with Kobe as a Lakers fan!
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[quote name='teeray' timestamp='1357146727' post='2073101']
And truth be told he never really has.

His recent statements prove that he is a guy that does not and never has gotten it.

He actually thinks this is the best he has played in a long time
[url="http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/8797823/kobe-bryant-los-angeles-lakers-says-season-best-played-awhile"]http://espn.go.com/l...t-played-awhile[/url]

He has the best team possibly ever assembled around him and they still can't win and blames everyone else but himself.
[url="http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/8802288/kobe-bryant-blames-age-los-angeles-lakers-lack-energy"]http://espn.go.com/l...ers-lack-energy[/url]
It is sad when Metta World Peace has to be the logical one in a locker room.

He has publicly ridiculed his teammates and told them to "put their big boy pants on"

He rode Shaq's coattails to three titles, then personally lost them a chance at a 4th, pouted through a playoff game by refusing to shoot the ball in the second half of a game, then forced Shaq and Jackson out because he wanted all the accolades only to fail miserably until the Lakers were forced to re-hire Jackson.

You can put all the all-stars you want around Kobe Bryant (and you have to have all-stars around him to make up for his play *see 04-05) but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. They won't touch the ball unless Kobe wants you to touch the ball.

Ball movement ends when the ball gets to Kobe. That is why the Lakers are second in scoring but 19th in assists. Despite having one of the best passers in NBA history on their team. It makes no sense to have 5 current or former all-stars on your team, and yet one player is shooting the ball around 30 times a game.

Kobe is still one of the best players in the NBA, and he is one of the top 20 players of all-time at worst, so to call him overrated is a little far fetched.

But in a historical context I just don't see him as a top ten player all-time. I see a guy that is about one thing and one thing only, Kobe Bryant. To, at times, the detriment of his teams.
[/quote]

Good read but there are a lot of fallacies with what you've written.

A lot of the statements you made seem to be based on dislike on Kobe as a person and not as a player.

Here's career shooting attempt averages for relevant players:

Michael Jordan - 22.9
Lebron James - 20.3
Kobe Bryant - 19.6
Carmelo Anthony - 19.3
Kevin Durant - 19.0
Dwyane Wade - 18.2

The idea that Kobe "Shoots Too Much" is like saying Cam Newton scores too much. Kobe is a scorer. Kobe is a shooting guard (you know, like shoots the ball?). Kobe is the star player on the team (Did you expect Smush Parker to take those 20 shots per game?)

Why is it that the concept of Kobe shooting the ball too much only applies to Kobe but not to current stars Lebron, Durant, Carmelo and Wade? As I previously mentioned, it's your personal disdain for Kobe.

Kobe doesn't get it? Kobe stated that his team is too old. Being that he is the second oldest starter on the team, he is referring to himself. He is placing the blame on himself as well.

Kobe thinks this is the best he's played in a long time. That is the truth so why question it? He's averaging the most points per game in 7 seasons and he is shooting at a career best shooting percentage.

Kobe telling Pau Gasol to put his big boy pants on while he is playing soft is actually quite tame for Kobe. Regardless of how you view it, Kobe was right and Pau needed to stop playing soft.

Kobe riding Shaq's coattails is an opinion shared by many but the sentiment is also that Shaq would not have won without Kobe.

Here are Shaq's and Kobe's production averages during their 3 peat run:

Shaq = 28.2 PPG
Kobe = 27.9

Looks to me like Kobe more than held his own during the run to those championships. Find me another player to average that many points during a title run and be labeled as someone who rode someone else's coattails. None, only because of the personal disdain for Kobe.
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[quote name='h0llywood' timestamp='1357318052' post='2076496']
Good read but there are a lot of fallacies with what you've written.

A lot of the statements you made seem to be based on dislike on Kobe as a person and not as a player.

Here's career shooting attempt averages for relevant players:

Michael Jordan - 22.9
Lebron James - 20.3
Kobe Bryant - 19.6
Carmelo Anthony - 19.3
Kevin Durant - 19.0
Dwyane Wade - 18.2

The idea that Kobe "Shoots Too Much" is like saying Cam Newton scores too much. Kobe is a scorer. Kobe is a shooting guard (you know, like shoots the ball?). Kobe is the star player on the team (Did you expect Smush Parker to take those 20 shots per game?)

Why is it that the concept of Kobe shooting the ball too much only applies to Kobe but not to current stars Lebron, Durant, Carmelo and Wade? As I previously mentioned, it's your personal disdain for Kobe.

Kobe doesn't get it? Kobe stated that his team is too old. Being that he is the second oldest starter on the team, he is referring to himself. He is placing the blame on himself as well.

Kobe thinks this is the best he's played in a long time. That is the truth so why question it? He's averaging the most points per game in 7 seasons and he is shooting at a career best shooting percentage.

Kobe telling Pau Gasol to put his big boy pants on while he is playing soft is actually quite tame for Kobe. Regardless of how you view it, Kobe was right and Pau needed to stop playing soft.

Kobe riding Shaq's coattails is an opinion shared by many but the sentiment is also that Shaq would not have won without Kobe.

Here are Shaq's and Kobe's production averages during their 3 peat run:

Shaq = 28.2 PPG
Kobe = 27.9

Looks to me like Kobe more than held his own during the run to those championships. Find me another player to average that many points during a title run and be labeled as someone who rode someone else's coattails. None, only because of the personal disdain for Kobe.
[/quote]

One of the reasons Kobe's shot per game over his career is that low is because he had nearly 270 games at the start of his career where he was developing and was taking less than 18 shots per game in each of his first 4 years, including his rookie year when he played in 71 games but only averaged 6 attempts per game.

When you career shooting percentage is .454 you will probably benefit your team by not taking such a high volume of shots, but take higher percentage shots. To put that in perspective, Kobe is currently on on pace to have his best FG% in his career this season at .479. It would mark the [i][b]first time[/b][/i] in Kobe Bryant's career he finished with a FG% higher than .470 Lebron has only had a FG% [i][b]lower[/b][/i] than .470 once in his career, his rookie season. Dwyane Wade has only shot below .470 twice. His rookie year and 07-08 (.469 so pretty close) and has a career FG% of .486.

If you exclude Jordan's time with the Wizards and the season he was hurt and the season he came out of retirement , he only shot below .480 one season, his last season with the Bulls (.465).

To put it more simply, volume of shots doesn't bother me if you are making a high percentage of them. But when you are shooting only .454 (which isn't terrible, it just isn't very good either) of your shots you aren't always helping when you are shooting 25+ times a game.

Which brings me to my next point. Volume of shots can also be a product of your team Although Kobe definitely shot too much in 05-06 (27.2 shots per game) they also didn't have a lot of other options on that team. But when you have Metta World Peace, Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard, and now Steve Nash, you shouldn't have a guy shooting 25+ times a game. Not when there is no one else on that team averaging over 12 shots per game. As I stated earlier there is no reason why Kobe should be averaging as many shots per game as Gasol and Howard [i][b]combined[/b][/i].

You mentioned Lebron's shots per game in your post. But while in Cleveland those shots per game steadily went down as they got better players around him. But then he went to Miami, which has Bosh and Wade, and for the last three seasons Lebron has not averaged over 19 shots per game since he has been in Miami. In Cleveland he only shot below 19 shots per game once, his rookie year. As I mentioned in another post Wade is shooting 15.4 times per game and Bosh 12.3.

There will always be times when Kobe needs to take over the game if he can. But I think in order for this incredible Lakers team with 2 MVPs and the best center in the NBA on it Kobe need to be shooting more in the 16-19 shots per game and there needs to be more balance.

Otherwise, the Lakers are only going to go as far as Kobe Bryant takes them. And it shouldn't have to be that way this year, with this team, and this much talent.

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