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#61 dugbug

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 09:02 AM

At least gantt has passion for the team and gets good info. He may be a bit off his rocker now and then

#62 ladypanther

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 10:19 AM

I am choosing to look at this glass as half full. RR has a chance to correct his early mistakes, which he has admitted he made in his hiring process. Gettleman has a lot of experience and while coaching hires are the responsibility of the HC, got to think that Ron will get some imput from his new boss. I think Chud moving on is a good thing....just can't believe the Browns are so enamored with him. May be the best thing that could have happened to Rivera.

#63 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 10:25 AM

My favorite Chud view...

Cam asks for the read option
Cam teaches teammates/RBs about option
Chud allows Cam to run it

Somehow that makes Chud a mad scientist. Mike Shanahan this year as well.

#64 Argus Plexus

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 07:11 PM

The read option is a type of play, not a base offense.

Secondly, I don't think the read option itself was the issue. i didn't like the way we were running it, and we had a hard time blocking.

It doesn't matter if you are running a power run game, zone run, or read option, if miss your assignments or get beat on your block your going to lose yardage.

Well it was our base offense at the beginning of the year. Our O-Line was being asked to work magic against the league's best pass rushers.

#65 Marguide

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 08:01 PM

Well it was our base offense at the beginning of the year.


Running a certain play frequently does not make it your base offense. We also frequently throw deep outs to Smith out of the gun, but you would never call that play your base offense. The read option run play is no different.

#66 Argus Plexus

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 10:19 AM

Running a certain play frequently does not make it your base offense. We also frequently throw deep outs to Smith out of the gun, but you would never call that play your base offense. The read option run play is no different.

So when the majority of your plays are in the same formation that's not your base offense? Gotcha.

#67 DawgzLife

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 01:24 PM

...(Devil's advocate)

There is still the chance that Chud coaching out of his ass and not being intelligent with how the offense was run is a large part of the reason we were so behind the 8-ball this year. A new OC might fix that problem and effectively save Rivera's job. How many times did we want to burn Chud in effigy this year?


We ranked 12th out of 32 in the league for offense (~ top 1/3 of the league) & 23rd in defense (~ bottom 1/3rd in the league). You think offense was our problem other than Cam making some dumb decisions early on in the season? (BTW, Cam was overwhelmed by the complexity of Chud's system & Chud deducted that complexity, which is when Cam 'improved').

I am not saying Chud's offense was my preference, b/c I like a more treadition rushing attack, but I'm saying it was not our offense that was our biggest problem (defense/coaching were, IMO).

#68 Peppers90 NC

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:46 PM

i think it's a good time for Gettlemen to be the GM and bring in someone of his choice.

#69 Peppers90 NC

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:49 PM

My favorite Chud view...

Cam asks for the read option
Cam teaches teammates/RBs about option
Chud allows Cam to run it

Somehow that makes Chud a mad scientist. Mike Shanahan this year as well.

i think that it is becoming more clear our lacking of execution was much worse than Chud's playcalling. that should have made him make adjustments which he took too long to do, but it has been proven that type of offense can be consistently successful.

#70 mwright350

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:52 PM

We ranked 12th out of 32 in the league for offense (~ top 1/3 of the league) & 23rd in defense (~ bottom 1/3rd in the league). You think offense was our problem other than Cam making some dumb decisions early on in the season? (BTW, Cam was overwhelmed by the complexity of Chud's system & Chud deducted that complexity, which is when Cam 'improved').

I am not saying Chud's offense was my preference, b/c I like a more treadition rushing attack, but I'm saying it was not our offense that was our biggest problem (defense/coaching were, IMO).


There is no question that coaching was our largest problem. But you'll notice that what I'm saying is about the coaches and not the players. Chud coached our offense for the first part of the year like he was playing Madden. We totally lacked balance (in spite of our 80 million dollar backfield) and we ran an offensive scheme that the whole world (but him) knew was not working as a base offense in the NFL.

Our offensive scheme didn't play to the strengths of our team and got Cam hit far more than he should have been hit. It works well as a wrinkle when they're not expecting it but defenders are too fast in the NFL for the option to be your base game plan. It's no surprise that when we started running an offense that was was more suited to the NFL we suddenly started performing better. It had nothing to do with complexity - it had to do with the scheme and the playcalling.

Cam had some issues this year (but he does have the highest passing yard total through his first two seasons of any QB to play the game...so he could have done a little worse). So did our receivers. So did our OLine. But all of this was made to look 100x worse because our playcaller was calling plays like a 12 year old in a sand-lot.

Also it's worth pointing out that our final defensive rankings for the year were:

10th in Yds/G (331.1).
18th in Pts/G

So that's pretty on par with the offense, huh?

To me the failure of this season is on Rivera and Chud. I wanted them both gone. I got one of them. My hope is that a new OC will come in here and run the offense right for an entire season. Maybe that saves Rivera's job...maybe it doesn't.

#71 Peppers90 NC

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 04:05 PM

We ranked 12th out of 32 in the league for offense (~ top 1/3 of the league) & 23rd in defense (~ bottom 1/3rd in the league). You think offense was our problem other than Cam making some dumb decisions early on in the season? (BTW, Cam was overwhelmed by the complexity of Chud's system & Chud deducted that complexity, which is when Cam 'improved').

I am not saying Chud's offense was my preference, b/c I like a more treadition rushing attack, but I'm saying it was not our offense that was our biggest problem (defense/coaching were, IMO).

if you look at point total the offense produced or you could say didnt produce in the first part of the season, coupled with the points the offense gave up against the points the defense gave up minus the points the defense scored, the offense was the obvious problem early in the season. we were always in the top half and defense and bottom half on offense for the first half of the season, and then when the offense found their spark, we moved up fast because we are that good. I believe the flux of the offense line early in the season was the biggest problem, and of course some bad luck and poor coaching.

Finished 10th in overall defense yardage btw, not that that is the most important stat and same in my opinion for offensive yardage. I think points is more important for both and don't forget the defense scored 3 or 4 touchdowns this season while the offense gave 3 or 4.

#72 DawgzLife

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 02:59 PM

There is no question that coaching was our largest problem. But you'll notice that what I'm saying is about the coaches and not the players. Chud coached our offense for the first part of the year like he was playing Madden. We totally lacked balance (in spite of our 80 million dollar backfield) and we ran an offensive scheme that the whole world (but him) knew was not working as a base offense in the NFL.

Our offensive scheme didn't play to the strengths of our team and got Cam hit far more than he should have been hit. It works well as a wrinkle when they're not expecting it but defenders are too fast in the NFL for the option to be your base game plan. It's no surprise that when we started running an offense that was was more suited to the NFL we suddenly started performing better. It had nothing to do with complexity - it had to do with the scheme and the playcalling.

Cam had some issues this year (but he does have the highest passing yard total through his first two seasons of any QB to play the game...so he could have done a little worse). So did our receivers. So did our OLine. But all of this was made to look 100x worse because our playcaller was calling plays like a 12 year old in a sand-lot.

Also it's worth pointing out that our final defensive rankings for the year were:

10th in Yds/G (331.1).
18th in Pts/G

So that's pretty on par with the offense, huh?

To me the failure of this season is on Rivera and Chud. I wanted them both gone. I got one of them. My hope is that a new OC will come in here and run the offense right for an entire season. Maybe that saves Rivera's job...maybe it doesn't.


I agree with most of your post definitely. Coaching was, of course, our biggest problem & I don't think that will improve next year. If you look historically at Chud's coaching, he increases % of playbook in subsequent years (DA was hurt by it in Cleveland & Cam was hurt by it here...neither are top QBs when it come to football intelligence...true, even tho I love Cam). Complexity was part of the issue, as was the "Madden-like playcalling"...they mean much the same thing. We need to use or RBs to decrease the amount forced on Cam...b/c Cam can be his own worst enemy (putting too much on his own shoulders....take this in context). Again, I think you are right on for most of your comments tho...this is just what I have exceptions with.

Year per game is not the best stat to list, b/c what matters is the differential between points scored & points the opponent scores against you per game (not overall); that is known as win-loss record. BTW, the offense TO diff was +1 for the year & we were top 10 in TDs scored. We were 21st in TD scored against our D. A lot of Cam's yards came in garbage time in both seasons. I can't say I think O & D were on par with each other & the fact that we lost so many close games shows our D did not always hold when we needed it.

In total, we have the same conclusion. Coaching is the problem. I don't think it will turn around tho. Rivera had to put his stamp on the D & that's his specialty. We were locky enough to have a great offensive mind for our offense, but we will see where our offense ends up next year. I think we will be wishing for Chud back...I really hope I am wrong tho. I think Rivera is gone after this next season.

#73 FootballMaestro

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:23 PM

I agree with most of your post definitely. Coaching was, of course, our biggest problem & I don't think that will improve next year. If you look historically at Chud's coaching, he increases % of playbook in subsequent years (DA was hurt by it in Cleveland & Cam was hurt by it here...neither are top QBs when it come to football intelligence...true, even tho I love Cam). Complexity was part of the issue, as was the "Madden-like playcalling"...they mean much the same thing. We need to use or RBs to decrease the amount forced on Cam...b/c Cam can be his own worst enemy (putting too much on his own shoulders....take this in context). Again, I think you are right on for most of your comments tho...this is just what I have exceptions with.

Year per game is not the best stat to list, b/c what matters is the differential between points scored & points the opponent scores against you per game (not overall); that is known as win-loss record. BTW, the offense TO diff was +1 for the year & we were top 10 in TDs scored. We were 21st in TD scored against our D. A lot of Cam's yards came in garbage time in both seasons. I can't say I think O & D were on par with each other & the fact that we lost so many close games shows our D did not always hold when we needed it.

In total, we have the same conclusion. Coaching is the problem. I don't think it will turn around tho. Rivera had to put his stamp on the D & that's his specialty. We were locky enough to have a great offensive mind for our offense, but we will see where our offense ends up next year. I think we will be wishing for Chud back...I really hope I am wrong tho. I think Rivera is gone after this next season.


How many times does it need to be said that "taking things off Cam's plate", had nothing to do with the complexity of the offense for Cam to understand. When Rivera said that (and he confirmed this in other interviews), he was speaking MAINLY about the use of the Read Option. Because in the Read Option, Cam had to make decisions for himself as QB, as well as for the RB's and himself as a runner. That was a media conclusion, later clarified. Rivera has already discussed this in several interviews as the cause of the offenses problems (adjusted after Hurney's firing).

Steve Smith and other Panthers have discussed this on WFNZ , regarding Chud's offense and play calling the first half and through out the season. Smith said about Chud and the offense, 'stop stuffing plays down our throat that don't work, and start listening to your position coaches for input'. That was a paraphrase. But you get the point. And he's not the only player that's spoke like that, in light of Chud's departure. So it's not just "Huddler's" that feel that way or noticed Chud's shortcomings. Many of his schemes, early in the season, just didn't work.

I understand that you may like Chud, and feel he shouldn't have to shoulder all the blame. However, you're mischaracterizing what took place, especially when numerous individuals close to the Panthers have addressed it; i.e., Chud Fugged Up!! Not only did Chud have bad, repeated schemes the first 8 games. But his play calling throughout the year left something to be desired.

FYI: Cam was a more traditional QB the second half of the season (similar to his first), having to make longer reads, and operating out of Pro-Sets, so I don't get this "simplified" offense argument. That's already been debunked. And the Panthers don't need to run the ball heavy. They just need to run the ball effectively when they do, whether it's out of the Pistol, Shotgun (their Read Option last two seasons), or under center. When fans complain about the run game, no one is saying (at least not me), that they should turn into a run team. No, they just want the Panthers to run the ball more effectively when they do, so you can effectively play action off of it.

Secondly, Cam is a very bright young QB. No he's not Drew Brees or Tom Brady. However, they weren't what Cam is now during their first two years. So I don't know why you would even compare him to DA in that way. Remember, he's entering his third year, with only 1 yr of major college ball, and look what he's already achieved, especially with the responsibility he's had (including a bad/revolving offensive line all of last year). And he wants to get better and should!

Note: Cam rarely threw to wide open WR's last year (down field or in the end zone), which is a major indictment to Chud's play calling. How many times did you seen RG3, Kaepernick, Russel Wilson or even Luck and any other NFL QB's, individually throw to wide open receivers, last year?? Uhm...Plenty! LOL.

Lastly, I wouldn't be surprised at all, if the Panthers offense is even better next year. That of course, has a lot to do with, if Shula becomes a competent coordinator and play caller. But as long as Cam is there, that's already a good start/building block. We'll see?

PS: Panthers offensive DVOA was about 5, with most of the major Analytic Football sites. Panthers offensive problems (besides Chud), had more to do with possessions, and not having the ball enough.

PS2: Cam did NOT accumulate a lot of yards during GARBAGE TIME. Are you really a Panther fan? Did you actually watch the games? That's one of the reasons, Cam didn't have more yards (or fell 150 short of repeating 4000), cause the Panthers were usually in tight games. And anytime they actually went ahead more than 14 pts (no matter when), Rivera pulled the air out the ball.

#74 tiger7_88

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:31 PM

When it comes to making a football organization work the right way, in my opinion (and this is just MY opinion)...

Gettleman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gantt

JMHMFO.

#75 raleigh-panther

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 04:21 PM

From his last couple posts slamming managment and the team, I'm guessin Gannt is carrying around a wee bit of anger from the whole "being assigned to cover Winthrop University" thing.


lol

You think?


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