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Here's an interesting article on homosexuality and biblical scholarship


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#91 TbTeRRoR

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:24 PM

i bet if you abandoned your mosaic cosmogony in favor of just embracing the love for humanity demonstrated by that there jesus guy you'd get an incredibly open and welcome response to your posts as they reflected it, rather than confirming the option of christianity rightly held by people who rightly despise religion


Where are you coming from with this? I 've insulted no one cept maybe the anime guy, and for that I am sorry. I'm willing to help anyone who needs help and would hope they would do the same for me. We have a pair of lesbians that attend our church. I take their son (part of my RA's class) out on many activities he lacks a father to do. Not that they can't do it. They just don't play ball, fish, or hunt. Do I hate them? No. Do I treat him/them any differently? No. We have black kids in my class(almost all white church though we have tried to reach out around the community). Infact 2 of them are some of the best students.

You all read my words and draw up some kind of back woods hillbilly never seen the light of day hick who despises anyone not christian and you have me all wrong. Untill you all realize this my words are pointless. i was demonized from the starting gun. Maybe I do come off with a strong opinion on somethings. That would be because I'm frustrated with societies opinions on the whole subject. Yes there are bad christians out there. Yes they do bad things. Yes a lot of them go about "conversion" in the wrong manner. We just want the best for everyone. I want the best for you.(please do not take that as "holier than thou" its not)

If I seem defensive and in turn offensive its caused by the nature of people with no respect for my beliefs " sky fairy" I'm only a man and I will snap from time to time and I've got a urgent need to spread the news and patience is not my strong suit.

Nobody outside of christianity wants to try to live outside of sin. They don't wanna stop doing the things they like. Even though they know deep in their hearts that they are morally wrong. Morals given to us by god. I lived in that sin shunning people like me for approx 14 years from 10-ish to 24. I knew deep down I was doing wrong and the day came when I had to go back. My life has been so much better since then. I dont need all those other things. Was it a struggle? It certainly was, but we all have free will. in that will is the strength of perseverance.

Do non christians know how much of that money we put into the offering plate goes out to communities? To gay familys? To poor mexican, black, white, whoever has a need? I'm sorry I know I saw someone post somewhere in the tinderbox that they were on the treasury committee and saw some shady money stuff. I'm sorry you saw that, but your dealing with humans and with men involved there will always be bad things. You shouldn't let that determine your opinion on the whole religion just like you shouldn't let "pushy" christians define all. Just like you should not let bad black people define all black people. I post a little opposition to Gay rights notice I never said they didn't have the right to anything. I guess if they want get married and do it in the traditional bond with god wedding then they can. That will be between them and god.(yes that was me putting on the brakes and hitting reverse a little bit) You have to understand the passion involved in this. You can't imagine the feeling of living free from the things you don't need. I have possesions and they are more dear to me than they should be. We all have our failings.

Just embracing the love of humanity? that will not get you into heaven as it is mentioned in the bible many times that just being a good/decent person is not enough. You cannot just act like Jesus to get into heaven. Your supposed to try to do that after being saved. Are you saying I should worm my way insome first then hit them with the zeal? lol


Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."



Romans 6:23 (KJV) "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."


John 14:6 KJV
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Romans 10:9

"If you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be Saved"


Last words I'm sorry if these is a rant. I got plenty of work to do and I want to get some non rant on message board free time in. I'm gonna go play some CS GO good night to you huddlers.

#92 Kral

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:39 PM

I do not see you as a backwoods hillbilly. That said your opinions are coming from a source for which you cannot show any veracity and you think they should apply to anyone else other than yourself. That is what I think is wrong.

I challenge you to demonstrate that all people who live outside the christian lifestyle feel morally wrong deep down in their hearts as you say. Furthermore I challenge you to prove definitively that there is an objective morality by which you can judge these people.

#93 BBQ&Beer

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:11 AM

Nobody outside of christianity wants to try to live outside of sin. They don't wanna stop doing the things they like. Even though they know deep in their hearts that they are morally wrong. Morals given to us by god. I lived in that sin shunning people like me for approx 14 years from 10-ish to 24. I knew deep down I was doing wrong and the day came when I had to go back. My life has been so much better since then. I dont need all those other things. Was it a struggle? It certainly was, but we all have free will. in that will is the strength of perseverance.


That bolded part.. that is my problem with Christianity/Islam/etc.... That is why I don't want my son dealing with creationism/ID in school.

You somehow know that I am ultimately wrong & the basis for this knowledge is your belief in something that cannot be tested & verified.

#94 Frash Brastard

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:45 AM

In my new religion I just came up with hell is eternally sitting in traffic while having to take a giant poo and anyone with a neckbeard is condemned to it

also i should add that neckbeards are not welcome

#95 TbTeRRoR

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:04 PM

That bolded part.. that is my problem with Christianity/Islam/etc.... That is why I don't want my son dealing with creationism/ID in school.

You somehow know that I am ultimately wrong & the basis for this knowledge is your belief in something that cannot be tested & verified.


Its incredibly hard to prove this but just has hard to give a rational explanation of how humans got morals.
Because my version takes faith which you would have to have to believe in I couldn't readily explain it.

How about you explain how morals started? According to evolution we grew up as animals. Men took whatever women the wanted when they wanted Who could have gotten together and changed this? Especially given all the different isolated or warring societies that would have been present then. How did we get to the point were men agreed that they just couldn't take any woman they wanted? Society can hardly agree on anything today. Under evolution we arrived here from single cell organisms to man how did morality find a its roots? Keeping in mind there are some highly intelligent animals that have no morals. Is morality an effect of a soul. Who decided right and wrong? How could everyone agree on that when we cannot agree on a crap-ton-load of other topics. What quelled our animal instincts? How do you justiify morality with out god?

#96 mmmbeans

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:31 PM

Its incredibly hard to prove this but just has hard to give a rational explanation of how humans got morals.
Because my version takes faith which you would have to have to believe in I couldn't readily explain it.

How about you explain how morals started? According to evolution we grew up as animals. Men took whatever women the wanted when they wanted Who could have gotten together and changed this? Especially given all the different isolated or warring societies that would have been present then. How did we get to the point were men agreed that they just couldn't take any woman they wanted? Society can hardly agree on anything today. Under evolution we arrived here from single cell organisms to man how did morality find a its roots? Keeping in mind there are some highly intelligent animals that have no morals. Is morality an effect of a soul. Who decided right and wrong? How could everyone agree on that when we cannot agree on a crap-ton-load of other topics. What quelled our animal instincts? How do you justiify morality with out god?


in all honesty, i haven't seen much evidence that a common morality is a through-line in humanity... We behave as we are taught to behave by those who raised us. The benefits of law and order are evident to anyone who lives in a society... but morality? I don't see a common morality anywhere.

neither here nor there, I just find it interesting that you would say our "goodness" is divine... i mean... god already destroyed the world once because of a lack of morality.

#97 Kral

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:43 PM

Its incredibly hard to prove this but just has hard to give a rational explanation of how humans got morals.
Because my version takes faith which you would have to have to believe in I couldn't readily explain it.

How about you explain how morals started? According to evolution we grew up as animals. Men took whatever women the wanted when they wanted Who could have gotten together and changed this? Especially given all the different isolated or warring societies that would have been present then. How did we get to the point were men agreed that they just couldn't take any woman they wanted? Society can hardly agree on anything today. Under evolution we arrived here from single cell organisms to man how did morality find a its roots? Keeping in mind there are some highly intelligent animals that have no morals. Is morality an effect of a soul. Who decided right and wrong? How could everyone agree on that when we cannot agree on a crap-ton-load of other topics. What quelled our animal instincts? How do you justiify morality with out god?


Humans don't agree on any morality. See Middle Eastern culture vs. Western Culture. See Athenians vs. Spartans.

You are just invoking the god of the gaps. In other words you don't understand something so you invoke your god to explain it rather than putting forth the effort to actually figure it out.

All of your questions are easily answered by the principles of survival of the fittest and memetic transmission.

#98 Kral

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:45 PM

Is morality an effect of a soul?


What soul? How can we ever judge if something is an effect of something else if we cannot show that something else to exist in the first place?

#99 TbTeRRoR

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:18 PM

How can I prove morality is from god...with out invoking god?


Morality is starting to fade and wain. Just as it says it did before in the bible and it will again is now.

Porn is a lot less shameful than it used to be. Its slowly becoming socially acceptable. Now we all talk about yeah I look at porn hahaha.
. Look at the changes in TV programming. My kids can hardly watch anything outside of Cartoon channels with out hearing curse words.
Somewhere in the not so distant past these things became not so bad. Eventually they will be accepted. How did we go from thats not good to man this is getting dirty. There are sexual innuendos all over prime time TV shows. Things that would have never been accepted years ago. Why do we shelter them kids from sex? There is no scientific reason to do so? There is no reason for a lot of things we do unless you turn to faith. Why do you hide these things from kids? Because you feel responsible to do so... but why?

You gonna tell me its because society was ingrained with it? How did society get ingrained with it? You mentioned its because its how your parents raised you... well extrapolate that to their parents and then their parents an so on.
Where does this theme of dessensitization end?
I'm interesting in seeing your take on this. Where did we learn shame?

#100 Kral

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:20 PM

No TB how can you prove morality's source is YOUR god without invoking the god of the GAPS?

I'm thinking first you'll probably need to prove that your god isn't just imaginary. Maybe I'm wrong there though. I will read the rest of your post now.

#101 Kral

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:23 PM

How can I prove morality is from god...with out invoking god?


Morality is starting to fade and wain. Just as it says it did before in the bible and it will again is now.

Porn is a lot less shameful than it used to be. Its slowly becoming socially acceptable. Now we all talk about yeah I look at porn hahaha.
. Look at the changes in TV programming. My kids can hardly watch anything outside of Cartoon channels with out hearing curse words.
Somewhere in the not so distant past these things became not so bad. Eventually they will be accepted. How did we go from thats not good to man this is getting dirty. There are sexual innuendos all over prime time TV shows. Things that would have never been accepted years ago. Why do we shelter them kids from sex? There is no scientific reason to do so? There is no reason for a lot of things we do unless you turn to faith. Why do you hide these things from kids? Because you feel responsible to do so... but why?

You gonna tell me its because society was ingrained with it? How did society get ingrained with it? You mentioned its because its how your parents raised you... well extrapolate that to their parents and then their parents an so on.
Where does this theme of dessensitization end?
I'm interesting in seeing your take on this. Where did we learn shame?


It seems to me that here you stand arguing that morality is fluid. Ever changing. Not absolute. But you also want to assert it is based on the principles of an unchanging static deity (by that deity's own admission I believe... might be mistaken as I can't quote the verse to you) according to the teachings of the traditions from which that deity was borrowed.

My take? There is no objective morality is the start of my take on it. What is evil to me is not evil to you. If it were you would not assert mythology to be true unless we can demonstrate the veracity of its claims.

Where did we learn shame? At this time I don't know. Maybe I can research it to some extent. As of right now just guessing I would say that shame probably is related to genetic traits that were more successful because the emotion gives some kind of advantage to humans while interacting with other humans over those who do not have the emotion of shame. I really don't know though and it is okay to admit it. In fact it is better to admit not knowing than to assert without doubt that which I cannot show to be true.

#102 mmmbeans

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:28 PM

How can I prove morality is from god...with out invoking god?


Morality is starting to fade and wain. Just as it says it did before in the bible and it will again is now.

Porn is a lot less shameful than it used to be. Its slowly becoming socially acceptable. Now we all talk about yeah I look at porn hahaha.
. Look at the changes in TV programming. My kids can hardly watch anything outside of Cartoon channels with out hearing curse words.
Somewhere in the not so distant past these things became not so bad. Eventually they will be accepted. How did we go from thats not good to man this is getting dirty. There are sexual innuendos all over prime time TV shows. Things that would have never been accepted years ago. Why do we shelter them kids from sex? There is no scientific reason to do so? There is no reason for a lot of things we do unless you turn to faith. Why do you hide these things from kids? Because you feel responsible to do so... but why?

You gonna tell me its because society was ingrained with it? How did society get ingrained with it? You mentioned its because its how your parents raised you... well extrapolate that to their parents and then their parents an so on.
Where does this theme of dessensitization end?
I'm interesting in seeing your take on this. Where did we learn shame?


Posted Image

you aren't talking about the human species, you're talking about the United States... we don't reflect any kind of broad spectrum morality that's present in the rest of the world.

#103 Kral

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:36 PM

Also TB,

I contend morality cannot fade due to the nature of the concept. It can only change. For example it used to be the moral (righteous) thing to slay a deformed child in parts of the world. Now that practice is extremely uncommon and considered immoral (unrighteous) practically throughout the civilized world.

#104 TbTeRRoR

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:01 PM

How can people be degenerates and openly lay claim to beliefs among their peers but still feel shame when confronted by it with their elders. We all know people like this. Some of my friends are like this.(20-35 yrs old) They can go out and do all this tell me its perfectly fine and normal ,but let them present that to theirs parents even though said people range from 20- 35 there is no way they will do that. Because of Shame unless as I stated their parents were radical in nature Hippy/ Swinger or some type of anti mainstream society persons. This is what baffles. I know there are some shameless ones that pardon the phrase "dont give a flip"



You said something about genetics... well that is a stretch in its self. I can say its not impossible though I feel very unlikely that man ignored their instincts and set up their on morals which some how magically created the unatural but became natural effect of having felt shame.

#105 mmmbeans

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:08 PM

How can people be degenerates and openly lay claim to beliefs among their peers but still feel shame when confronted by it with their elders. We all know people like this. Some of my friends are like this.(20-35 yrs old) They can go out and do all this tell me its perfectly fine and normal ,but let them present that to theirs parents even though said people range from 20- 35 there is no way they will do that. Because of Shame unless as I stated their parents were radical in nature Hippy/ Swinger or some type of anti mainstream society persons. This is what baffles. I know there are some shameless ones that pardon the phrase "dont give a flip"



You said something about genetics... well that is a stretch in its self. I can say its not impossible though I feel very unlikely that man ignored their instincts and set up their on morals which some how magically created the unatural but became natural effect of having felt shame.


conditioning?

I used to have a dog right... that dog's natural place is ripping the absolute shiat out of my furniture... Now, a few weeks after having that dog, he no longer would rip up my furniture... in fact he'd slink away in shame if he was even caught NEAR the furniture. That dog, ignored his instincts and accepted a new value system...

How could such a thing happen?


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