194 replies to this topic

[fieryprophet]

Yeah, but it's been two years in a row, and he's 1-12 in them.

Nobody's that unlucky.

I think Rivera (and his poor out of game and in game preparation) has a lot to do with that.

Now, you're trying to make excuses for Rivera, when he himself admitted he's made mistakes, and could have used an experienced former HC to help guide him. So some of that's on Rivera, and even he recognized/admitted that.

Some of that is on Rivera, but not all of it. hence, his 1-12 record may be closer to 1-4 for games in which he is directly responsible. Not good, but not catastrophic. And again, what indications do we have that Harbaugh is any better of a close game coach?

[FootballMaestro]

Some of that is on Rivera, but not all of it. hence, his 1-12 record may be closer to 1-4 for games in which he is directly responsible. Not good, but not catastrophic. And again, what indications do we have that Harbaugh is any better of a close game coach?

I think it's higher than 1-4 (even if that's outside the variables, cause Rivera increases them against himself).

However, to answer your question: Here's what makes Rivera a bad, worse coach than Harbaugh, adding to that close loss total of his.

Though Rivera knows he's not the best game manager, especially in tight games. He consistently plays not to lose, when he has big leads, ultimately leading to the opposition coming back, and Rivera losing those games. Now if you know, you're not the best game manager, than why not keep your foot on the accelerator pedal, so you don't have to face/worry about making those decisions in the first place? That makes sense, right? But Rivera doesn't.

My second point is: If Rivera knows/knew he needed an experienced HC to help guide him. Then how come he didn't hire one to help him this year?

The true definition of insanity, is to do the same thing over and over again, and expect different results. And that adds to his close loss futility. Of course he may change, learn. However, you know what I'm saying as well.

Somehow, I don't expect Harbaugh to be as dumb, with simple decisions. He couldn't be, and be where he is right now. Just face it!

[fieryprophet]

I think it's higher than 1-4 (even if that's outside the variables, cause Rivera increases them against him).

However, to answer your question: Here's what makes Rivera a bad, worse coach.

Though Rivera knows he's not the best game manager, especially in tight games. He consistently plays not to lose, when he has big leads, ultimately leading to the opposition coming back, and Rivera losing those games. Now if you know, you're not the best game manager, than why not keep your foot on the accelerator pedal, so you don't have to come to making those decisions in the first place? That makes sense. But Rivera doesn't.

My second point is: If Rivera knows/knew he needed an experienced HC to help guide him. Then how come he didn't hire one to help him this year?

The true definition of insanity, is to do the same thing over and over again, and expect different results. Of course he may change, learn. However, you know what I'm saying as well.

Somehow, I don't expect Harbaugh to be as dumb, with simple decisions. He couldn't be, and be where he is right now. Just face it!

See, I've expounded in great detail why I believe Harbaugh to be overrated, and all I ever get back in return is "well, he can't be, because they're winning" when there are innumerable instances of mediocre coaches winning and close game records are essentially random and he schemes aren't very advanced and he has talented team to work with and. . .

I mean, can someone give me one solid attribute of Jim Harbaugh that can say "see, this adjustment made in the second half of the Atlanta game completely stifled the Falcons offense and led to them being shut out." Because I actually can point to one adjustment that helped, but I'm waiting for anyone of you Harbaugh lovers to point it out.

[FootballMaestro]

See, I've expounded in great detail why I believe Harbaugh to be overrated, and all I ever get back in return is "well, he can't be, because they're winning" when there are innumerable instances of mediocre coaches winning and close game records are essentially random and he schemes aren't very advanced and he has talented team to work with and. . .

I mean, can someone give me one solid attribute of Jim Harbaugh that can say "see, this adjustment made in the second half of the Atlanta game completely stifled the Falcons offense and led to them being shut out." Because I actually can point to one adjustment that helped, but I'm waiting for anyone of you Harbaugh lovers to point it out.

Even if I/we take everything you said as true.....Did the thought ever occur to you, that maybe he's a better Manager, Decision Maker, Motivator and leader, than in game or X's and O's coach??

Nonetheless, that would be enough to still make him a good to very good coach, and certainly better--at this stage than Rivera.

As I said, Rivera is known to be an excellent X's and O's guy. But he's a mediocre in game coach, Executive and decision maker, which his X's and O's can't over come and makes him a bad coach on the field/during games. It's not just probability in Rivera's case. He's aided to his poorer results.

Some coaches strengths are in leader ship, decision making, talent procurement and Executive decision making. Some coaches are in game planning. With others, it's in their in game adjustments, coaching up, or even motivating players. Those are just to name a few.

All can be good coaches, or have elements of all of the above. Like I said. Even if we take what you say about Harbaugh as Da Gospel. There isn't one set formula or criteria on being a good Coach.

[fieryprophet]

Even if I/we take everything you said as true.....Did the thought ever occur to you, that maybe he's a better Manager, Decision Maker, Motivator and leader, than in game or X's and O's coach??

Nonetheless, that would be enough to still make him a good to very good coach, and certainly better--at this stage than Rivera.

As I said, Rivera is known to be an excellent X's and O's guy. But he's a mediocre in game coach, Executive and decision maker, which his X's and O's can't over come and makes him a bad coach on the field/during games. It's not just probability in his case.

. . .Again, how many players were adamant in their praise of Rivera? For someone who you think to be an incapable motivator or leader they were certainly motivated in spite of crushing defeats and a lost season. Especially when you compare their responses to the debacle of the 2010 season, or Reid's last year in Philly, or the circus surrounding Rex Ryan. No one in their right mind can argue that this team wasn't playing like a team down the stretch, and fighting hard, and playing to win and not to not lose. Whereas Harbaugh already has a reputation as a farcical liar, a manipulator, and an arrogant asshole.

[FootballMaestro]

. . .Again, how many players were adamant in their praise of Rivera? For someone who you think to be an incapable motivator or leader they were certainly motivated in spite of crushing defeats and a lost season. Especially when you compare their responses to the debacle of the 2010 season, or Reid's last year in Philly, or the circus surrounding Rex Ryan. No one in their right mind can argue that this team wasn't playing like a team down the stretch, and fighting hard, and playing to win and not to not lose. Whereas Harbaugh already has a reputation as a farcical liar, a manipulator, and an arrogant asshole.

What the players say mean Bunk. Now you're grasping for straws to continue or win an argument.

The San Diego players didn't want to see Norv Turner go for years either. That's a common cry by players, who some how feel responsible for a coaches departure, unless they just don't like them.

There have been numerous examples of this, concerning chronic under achieving teams and coaches over the years.

C'mon, you know this as well.

[fieryprophet]

What the players say mean Bunk. Now you're grasping for straws to continue or win an argument.

The San Diego players didn't want to see Norv Turner go for years either. That's a common cry by players, who some how feel responsible for a coaches departure, unless they just don't like them.

There have been numerous examples of this, concerning chronic under achieving coaches.

C'mon, you know this as well.

Prove it. You're telling me this is the case, prove it. I'm tired of doing all the work in these debates, it's about time someone proved their case to me. With actual facts, by the way, none of this "c'mon, you know it has to be true" pandering.

[CarolinaCoolin]

Jim harbaugh deserves the praise he gets from this board. If we actually landed him(not saying we were in the running or anything just speculating) we probably wouldn't even have cam. I bet if we got harbaugh here he would have convinced luck to come out and he'd be our qb. Our team would look very different then it is right now.

Coaching in the NFL isn't X's and O's anymore. It's like being a CEO. You put your players in the best position to win you games. That's by putting good coordinators together to help your players succeed that's by motivating your players to give them something to play for. That's by putting a winning culture together in the locker room. That's by makin hard decisions that will help the team in the long run. No one can argue that the 9ers wouldn't be in the Super Bowl if they stayed with Alex smith. Alex smith would not have come back from a 17-0 deficit to win the game at Atlanta. Kaep could and did with his explosiveness he brought to the team. Jim made the tough decision that could have split the locker room and it paid off and he's playing for a ring. To say he isn't a good coach and he'll get fired in two yeas is laughable at best. The 9ers are going to be a scary team for years to come.

[FootballMaestro]

Prove it. You're telling me this is the case, prove it. I'm tired of doing all the work in these debates, it's about time someone proved their case to me. With actual facts, by the way, none of this "c'mon, you know it has to be true" pandering.

So let me get this right?

You're asking me to prove, that many under achieving teams over the years, didn't express to want their coach back?

You can't be as big as a football fan as you purport to be, and actually even ask this question and/or challenge it's validity and historicity, if I'm understanding you correctly? That's not even debatable.

And I didn't forget the fact that you ignored many direct correlations I made between Harbaugh and Rivera. But that's all right. Cause I don't don't want to go on and on in circles, if you just changed the subject when given a direct comparison (and no don't ask me now, all you gotta do is go back to what we've already discussed).

I respect your opinion, viewpoint and passion. I really do. And you've made some good points and gave us some good information & insight. However, I feel you don't give Harbaugh enough credit; especially in comparison to Ron Rivera.

That's just down right unfair and a disservice to Harbaugh, to indicate that he may not even be a better coach than Ron Rivera has been during their same tenure (on either team). Harbaugh slid right into the role of CEO seamlessly, while Rivera's a District Manager trying to haplessly learn the expanded corporation/responsibilities, in comparison.

SMH

[FootballMaestro]

Jim harbaugh deserves the praise he gets from this board. If we actually landed him(not saying we were in the running or anything just speculating) we probably wouldn't even have cam. I bet if we got harbaugh here he would have convinced luck to come out and he'd be our qb. Our team would look very different then it is right now.

Coaching in the NFL isn't X's and O's anymore. It's like being a CEO. You put your players in the best position to win you games. That's by putting good coordinators together to help your players succeed that's by motivating your players to give them something to play for. That's by putting a winning culture together in the locker room. That's by makin hard decisions that will help the team in the long run. No one can argue that the 9ers wouldn't be in the Super Bowl if they stayed with Alex smith. Alex smith would not have come back from a 17-0 deficit to win the game at Atlanta. Kaep could and did with his explosiveness he brought to the team. Jim made the tough decision that could have split the locker room and it paid off and he's playing for a ring. To say he isn't a good coach and he'll get fired in two yeas is laughable at best. The 9ers are going to be a scary team for years to come.

This is part of what I was trying to explain to him.

He appears to want to pigeon hole Harbaugh into one, narrow silo (of his choice), oblivious to the multitude of various things Head coaches do and are responsible for today.

[rayzor]

anyone else think that on this topic FP = PFFL?

[fieryprophet]

So let me get this right?

You're asking me to prove, that many under achieving teams over the years, didn't express to want their coach back?

You can't be as big as a football fan as you purport to be, and actually even ask this question and/or challenge it's validity and historicity, if I'm understanding you correctly? That's not even debatable.

And I didn't forget the fact that you ignored many direct correlations I made between Harbaugh and Rivera. But that's all right. Cause I don't don't want to go on and on in circles, if you just changed the subject when given a direct comparison (and no don't ask me now, all you gotta do is go back to what we've already discussed).

I respect your opinion, viewpoint and passion. I really do. And you've made some good points and gave us some good information & insight. However, I feel you don't give Harbaugh enough credit; especially in comparison to Ron Rivera.

That's just down right unfair and a disservice to Harbaugh, to indicate that he may not even be a better coach than Ron Rivera has been during their same tenure (on either team). Harbaugh slid right into the role of CEO seamlessly, while Rivera's been a District Manager trying to haplessly learn the ropes, in comparison. SMH

You know exactly what I said, but you're inability to state your case makes you swing for snide remarks instead. Prove that Jim Harbaugh, through his motivational, organizational and CEO-esque responsibilities, as you allege them to be, have improved the 49ers drastically.

For one, the 49ers power structure was much different than the one Rivera stepped into, where Hurney had assembled himself a personal fiefdom by keeping the front office small and being directly involved in almost every aspect of the franchise; whereas Trent Baalke was an internal promotion and engages in more of a power-sharing arrangement with Harbaugh. Two, Harbaugh's immediate predecessor was one of the worst coaches in recent history, legitimately affecting the performance of his team and publicly humiliating them, which led to a talented team underperforming and made the next coach seem almost savant-like by the mere process of being competent. In contrast, Rivera came in for John Fox, who may have run his course here but is clearly a much superior coach to Singletary, so while the 2-14 season of 2010 was subpar it wasn't as if the team was drastically underperforming with Clausen at QB. Ironically, between the two coaches, Rivera is the only one to have improved his record from year to year

You're trying very hard to make an argument for Harbaugh, but doing a remarkably poor job of giving any concrete evidence.

[fieryprophet]

anyone else think that on this topic FP = PFFL?

For God's sake, give me any substantial shred of evidence in favor of Harbaugh being an elite coach. Just one! Tell me, rayzor, what schematic ingenuity has Harbaugh brought to the NFL?

[FootballMaestro]

You know exactly what I said, but you're inability to state your case makes you swing for snide remarks instead. Prove that Jim Harbaugh, through his motivational, organizational and CEO-esque responsibilities, as you allege them to be, have improved the 49ers drastically.

For one, the 49ers power structure was much different than the one Rivera stepped into, where Hurney had assembled himself a personal fiefdom by keeping the front office small and being directly involved in almost every aspect of the franchise; whereas Trent Baalke was an internal promotion and engages in more of a power-sharing arrangement with Harbaugh. Two, Harbaugh's immediate predecessor was one of the worst coaches in recent history, legitimately affecting the performance of his team and publicly humiliating them, which led to a talented team underperforming and made the next coach seem almost savant-like by the mere process of being competent. In contrast, Rivera came in for John Fox, who may have run his course here but is clearly a much superior coach to Singletary, so while the 2-14 season of 2010 was subpar it wasn't as if the team was drastically underperforming with Clausen at QB. Ironically, between the two coaches, Rivera is the only one to have improved his record from year to year

You're trying very hard to make an argument for Harbaugh, but doing a remarkably poor job of giving any concrete evidence.

Once again, you're being recalcitrant and trying to purport a false argument ("prove that Harbaugh is actually a good manager", despite the fact that we haven't heard any fall out on him making bad moves--like with Rivera, and have heard nothing but praise from fans, reporters and players, regarding the very same thing), suited to your own conclusions/speculations.

Go ask Colin Kaepernick or Alex Smith, about Harbaugh's management, talent evaluation, procurement, courage or decision making skills? One of them was a career bust, who was great last year. Now he's sitting on the bench, watching a raw, unproven QB take his job and win the same NFC Championship they lost last year with him at the helm.

And the last that I knew, Harbaugh's team is going to the super bowl, which is an improvement over what they did the previous year. I'm sure any coach, would take one less loss, or a lesser regular season record to make the Superbowl after losing during the Conference Finals the previous year. This fact truly shows how out of touch you're apparent blind, rabid infatuation of Harbaugh, has pushed you over the edge of clear thinking.

So if anyone is not making their argument here (and continually slipping into a slippery slope of confounding murkiness), it would be you. But that's okay. It was a good chat.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, and let it go. I'm glad you feel so strongly about your thoughts.

[SZ James]

I think the real issue for people like FP is that if the Panther's FO somehow landed Jim Harbaugh, he wouldn't be this adamant about how overrated he is. He would be saying the exact opposite actually. When you base your understanding purely on "Well the panthers did it this way, so it's right move and I'm gonna defend it no matter what", you're already hopeless.

Teeray and dozens of other posters fall into this trap every single day. Take the blind test. Ask yourself, if all you had to go by was "Coach A" and "Coach B" or "Team A" and "Team B", would your opinion change?