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#31 mav1234

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 01:44 PM

I disagree on his definition a little, as it implies that all these young QBs getting TO the playoffs are not franchise QBs because they aren't all winning, and I disagree with that.  I think young QBs in their first contract can be franchise QBs by demonstrating consistent success with the ball... Franchise QBs are QBs you build around IMO



#32 Darth Biscuit

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 01:49 PM

He didn't come to mind but as McNasty said...Brees would probably fall in with Aaron Rodgers for me. Eli, Flacco, Cutler I just don't consider franchise QB's but I surely can see why some people would think so.

 

Give me a QB that no matter what is going on around him, injuries, bad coaching, drama, etc....you just know that 90% of the time they will consistantly put their team on their back and carry that franchise  to the playoffs year after year.

 

P Manning and Tom Terrific will do just that.

 

Rodgers and Brees are capable of doing that.

 

Just my subjective high stadard view of a true franchise QB

 

 

and oh yeah.....Nick Foles also. :thumbsu:

 

I think your definition and my definition of a FQB is completely different.

 

Yours seems to be based solely on performance, whereas I look at it based on who the team is building/built around.

 

Take Eli for instance...  he has gotten it done, but aside from that, no way the Giants would dump him for another QB (say a rookie to draft) and bring that guy in to start immediately.

 

Eli, Ben, Flacco, Cutler (now with the new contract), Stafford, Cam, Ryan, Brees, Luck, Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Rivers all qualify to me.

 

Dalton is close, Wilson and Kaepernick are not far off either...



#33 Mr. Scot

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 01:51 PM

He didn't come to mind but as McNasty said...Brees would probably fall in with Aaron Rodgers for me. Eli, Flacco, Cutler I just don't consider franchise QB's but I surely can see why some people would think so.

 

Give me a QB that no matter what is going on around him, injuries, bad coaching, drama, etc....you just know that 90% of the time they will consistantly put their team on their back and carry that franchise  to the playoffs year after year.

 

P Manning and Tom Terrific will do just that.

 

Rodgers and Brees are capable of doing that.

 

Just my subjective high stadard view of a true franchise QB

 

 

and oh yeah.....Nick Foles also. :thumbsu:

 

That's a good definition.

 

Saw the Nick Foles reference coming :lol:

 

Of the three guys I added, Eli is the only one I could conceivably see calling a franchise QB, but if it came down to having to say yes or no I'd lean 'no'.  He does have two Super Bowl rings though, and played well in both games.

 

Here's another name for the mix: Philip Rivers.
 



#34 Mr. Scot

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 01:54 PM

I think your definition and my definition of a FQB is completely different.

 

Yours seems to be based solely on performance, whereas I look at it based on who the team is building/built around.

 

Take Eli for instance...  he has gotten it done, but aside from that, no way the Giants would dump him for another QB (say a rookie to draft) and bring that guy in to start immediately.

 

Eli, Ben, Flacco, Cutler (now with the new contract), Stafford, Cam, Ryan, Brees, Luck, Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Rivers all qualify to me.

 

Dalton is close, Wilson and Kaepernick are not far off either...

 

Gotta disagree here, Biscuit.  I don't think Dalton and Kaepernick are close at all, particularly Dalton.

 

I'd also be hesitant to say Luck could be called that after only two years.  I gotta see what he does next season.

 

Stafford and Roethlisberger?  Both overrated.

 

And hey, how'd ya leave RG3 out of your discussion? :lol:
 



#35 Darth Biscuit

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:00 PM

Gotta disagree here, Biscuit.  I don't think Dalton and Kaepernick are close at all, particularly Dalton.

 

I'd also be hesitant to say Luck could be called that after only two years.  I gotta see what he does next season.

 

Stafford and Roethlisberger?  Both overrated.

 

And hey, how'd ya leave RG3 out of your discussion? :lol:
 

 

Dalton is questionable I agree... Kaep isn't there yet, but he will be I thnk.

 

RGIII probably fits, they're not dumping him.  You think there's any chance, say in the next 3 years, that Indy will give up on Luck (barring injury of course)?

 

Stafford overrated, yes.  Ben... hard to argue with two rings.  But this isn't about their performance to me... being a franchise QB is about exactly that, what they mean to their franchise.



#36 Johnny Rockets

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:03 PM

I think your definition and my definition of a FQB is completely different.

 

Yours seems to be based solely on performance, whereas I look at it based on who the team is building/built around.

 

Take Eli for instance...  he has gotten it done, but aside from that, no way the Giants would dump him for another QB (say a rookie to draft) and bring that guy in to start immediately.

 

Eli, Ben, Flacco, Cutler (now with the new contract), Stafford, Cam, Ryan, Brees, Luck, Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Rivers all qualify to me.

 

Dalton is close, Wilson and Kaepernick are not far off either...

I can 100% see that point of view and wouldn't argue against it for a second. It's all very subjective and I think most people probably see it the way you do.



#37 Montsta

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:09 PM

I think Peyton Manning has some sort of record for playoff one and done's.

No franchise.

#38 Johnny Rockets

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:09 PM

Gotta disagree here, Biscuit.  I don't think Dalton and Kaepernick are close at all, particularly Dalton.

 

I'd also be hesitant to say Luck could be called that after only two years.  I gotta see what he does next season.

 

Stafford and Roethlisberger?  Both overrated.

 

And hey, how'd ya leave RG3 out of your discussion? :lol:
 

 

 

Big Ben intrigues me because I think that there are just as many people that underrate him as there are that overrate him.

 

And unless Dalton pulls a rabbit out of his a$$ next year, his days in Cincy most likely will be done and Marvin Lewis should go with him.  



#39 Mr. Scot

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:10 PM

Dalton is questionable I agree... Kaep isn't there yet, but he will be I thnk.

 

RGIII probably fits, they're not dumping him.  You think there's any chance, say in the next 3 years, that Indy will give up on Luck (barring injury of course)?

 

Stafford overrated, yes.  Ben... hard to argue with two rings.  But this isn't about their performance to me... being a franchise QB is about exactly that, what they mean to their franchise.

 

I dont think Kaepernick will ever get past being a one read quarterback.  It doesn't even seem like they're trying.  The Niners apparently would just rather scheme around it.

 

I don't think RG3 lasts long enough to be a franchise QB.  He's just too frail.

 

Indy give up on Luck/  Seriously doubt it.  I think he'll prove to be a franchise QB, but realistically he's not there yet.

 

As to Big Ben, the Steelers scheme has masked his issues in the past, but I think that's broken down now.  His biggest positive is that he can extend plays because he's big and tough to tackle.  But a great QB?  No.  Two rings in three Super Bowls yes, but only one decent performance.  He looked mediocre in the first one and awful in the last one.



#40 Mr. Scot

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:11 PM

Big Ben intrigues me because I think that there are just as many people that underrate him as there are that overrate him.

 

And unless Dalton pulls a rabbit out of his a$$ next year, his days in Cincy most likely will be done and Marvin Lewis should go with him.  

 

i wonder how long Lewis survives without Zimmer running his defense.

 

Wouldn't surprise me if both Lewis and Dalton exit Cincy in a few years.
 



#41 Darth Biscuit

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:16 PM

I dont think Kaepernick will ever get past being a one read quarterback.  It doesn't even seem like they're trying.  The Niners apparently would just rather scheme around it.

 

I don't think RG3 lasts long enough to be a franchise QB.  He's just too frail.

 

Indy give up on Luck/  Seriously doubt it.  I think he'll prove to be a franchise QB, but realistically he's not there yet.

 

As to Big Ben, the Steelers scheme has masked his issues in the past, but I think that's broken down now.  His biggest positive is that he can extend plays because he's big and tough to tackle.  But a great QB?  No.  Two rings in three Super Bowls yes, but only one decent performance.  He looked mediocre in the first one and awful in the last one.

 

Again, I think we're looking at this completely differently and will have to agree to disagree.

 

I'm not arguing with you about their performances, I'm saying that being a FQB doesn't really rely on that very much.  It's more about what the franchises have invested in them.  RGIII is a good example... you're exactly right he's not going to last, but with the draft picks they gave up, until and unless he does get hurt really bad, they're sticking with him.  Same with all those I listed.

 

Obviously if the performance falls way off, then the franchise would have to do something, but which of those QBs I've listed has fallen way off?  Eli sucked ass this year... Giants aren't getting rid of him.



#42 Johnny Rockets

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:20 PM

i wonder how long Lewis survives without Zimmer running his defense.

 

Wouldn't surprise me if both Lewis and Dalton exit Cincy in a few years.
 

A few years?

 

Pretty sure Dalton and Lewis' contracts are up at the end of 2014 aren't they? Perfect time to part ways epsecially since Mike Brown is so cheap and wouldn't want to fire Lewis and still have to pay him.

 

I think Dalton and Lewis are 2 lame ducks going into next year and it won't end well for either.



#43 Mr. Scot

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:21 PM

Again, I think we're looking at this completely differently and will have to agree to disagree.

 

I'm not arguing with you about their performances, I'm saying that being a FQB doesn't really rely on that very much.  It's more about what the franchises have invested in them.  RGIII is a good example... you're exactly right he's not going to last, but with the draft picks they gave up, until and unless he does get hurt really bad, they're sticking with him.  Same with all those I listed.

 

Obviously if the performance falls way off, then the franchise would have to do something, but which of those QBs I've listed has fallen way off?  Eli sucked ass this year... Giants aren't getting rid of him.

 

Agree that we define it differently. 

 

My definition is closer to JRs.

 

 

A few years?

 

Pretty sure Dalton and Lweis' contracts are up at the end of this year aren't they? Perfect time to part ways epsecially since Mike Brown is so cheap and wouldn't want to fire Lewis and still have to pay him.

 

I think Dalton and Lewis are 2 lame ducks going into next year and it won't end well for either.

 

I hadn't looked, but if that's so then yeah.  I could absolutely see that.

 

Side Note: On top of being a penny-pincher, Brown is a football moron.  His dad's football smarts definitely didn't get handed down to him.



#44 Johnny Rockets

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:27 PM

Agree that we define it differently. 

 

My definition is closer to JRs.

 

 

 

I hadn't looked, but if that's so then yeah.  I could absolutely see that.

 

Side Note: On top of being a penny-pincher, Brown is a football moron.

No Zimmer + Lame duck QB and Head Coach + Mike Brown being Mike Brown = Implosion

 

It's a shame because the Bengals have some really good pieces on that team. More talent on that team than 95% of the league.



#45 Mr. Scot

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:31 PM

No Zimmer + Lame duck QB and Head Coach + Mike Brown being Mike Brown = Implosion

 

It's a shame because the Bengals have some really good pieces on that team. More talent on that team than 95% of the league.

 

Although I've never been a big fan of Lewis's tenure there, I do have to give him some credit on one front.  Winning with Mike Brown in charge is some tough sledding, borderline miraculous.
 




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