Most of this historic draft class hasnt even played 1 game against decent competition.
Hype gets thrown around quite a bit, especially with unknown quantities.
One guy who observed a Kansas practice said Wiggins athleticism us undeniable but he was probably only the fifth best player on his own team that day.
Maybe these guys all shake out how we think they will, but I need a little more proof before I describe this class as historic.
I understand what you are saying and partly agree with it. I suppose that I should have said that this class has the potential to be a historically great class. Either way I am still in favor of not taking, but finishing the season at a competitive 27-30 wins and having something to build on. Realistically this team as constructed has a peak of about 45-48 wins if everyone reaches max potential (players and coaches). I'd just assume try to get one of these potential superstar players this season, see what we come out with, and build with another great building block added to our roster. Instead of having a good PG, solid SG, raw SF, raw PF/C (Biz), a young PF/C (Zeller), and a good C (Jefferson), we add a potential star SG, SF, PF, or C to this roster and truly have a roster to build around. Now obviously this is assuming that the majority of the top 7-8 live up to the hype and the usual unknown prospect(s) comes along and inserts himself into the top 5-10 conversation.
Shula's play calling hasn't been good by any standards, but it's way more than that. This loss is 100% on the players. Early drops just killed our offense. That and Cam just decided to die in the 2nd half.
I don't know if they wouldn't. His rookie contract is up soon and he will be looking for a max contract, something I think it will be difficult for the Pacers to give him. If they get into negotiating and find that he is asking for too much, they might not have a choice. A package with Gordon(cap relief), MKG(young player with loads of potential) and a lottery pick in the best draft of the last decade would give them a pretty good return for a player they would have to let walk for nothing.
No chance they trade Paul George. They have made sure to have cap space open for next season so that they can for sure sign him. Everyone knows that Paul George will be getting a max contract and there was a report out a few days ago that the Pacers and Paul George have already begun contract extension talks. I would be completely shocked if they traded him, and even more shocked if they traded him to Charlotte for MKG, Ben Gordon, and a 1st round pick.
With Monta out of question let's look at what we have in Henderson. When you break it down, we actually are at a luxury right now with Gerald.
- EXCELLENT finisher under the rim. Whether it's dunk, layup, or drawing fouls, Hendo will convert when given the chance. He's excellent at splitting zones and attacking the rim
- GOOD jump shooter from mid range off the dribble. The guy shoots a good percentage off the dribble and creates his own shot very well.
- GOOD jump shooter with his back to the basket. His fader in the mid range is solid and he's shown to be a threat from there.
- AVERAGE jump shooter from mid range in a catch and shoot situation. Bobcats have run a curl play for Henderson that give him a catch, fadeaway jumpshot for years and he's been just about automatic in that situation but other than that he can't really catch and shoot
- BELOW AVERAGE long range shooter. By far the weak spot of his game, but he can still give you about a 3 a game, maybe less, but he knows not to shoot from there unless totally necessary. He still shoots 33% from long range which certainly isn't poor. Poor would be below the 30% mark.
Let's just put it this way. HoopData.com has a great set of defensive stat lines (which I know you guys hate, but this one's simple). It's called the defensive play stat (DEF), which combines a players Charges, Steals, and Blocks, and combines them into 1 number that tallys the number of great defensive plays per game that a player will make. As far as Shooting Guards go, the average DEF number is about 1.5 great defensive plays per game. Henderson in 12-13 was at 1.82, which is tied for EIGHTH in the NBA with Kirk Hinrich (who many people view as an excellent defender) and right behind Kobe Bryant (another excellent defender) and 2 spots below Thabo Sefalosha (who many people view as one of the best defenders in the league). Take that as you will.
I view Hendo as a great defender 1 on 1 with the ability to create a turnover and lock a player down to below their averages on offense.
Fantastic post, although most don't give him enough credit for his jumpshooting, which is actually really good. Sure he isn't a knock down 3pt shooter, but he is one of the top mid range shooters in the game. Get him the ball at the elbow and let him go to work. He shoots 43-44% from mid range and has improved every season it seems. He's not worth 8 million right now, probably not 7 million, but we're also paying for potential as much as production imo. Although, if Redick can get 7 million then Henderson's market value is probably around there as well.
Monta Ellis plays better Defense, rebounds and passes better than Henderson
Points per game: 19.2
Steals per game: 2.1
Blocks per game: .4
Assists per game: 6.0
Rebounds per game: 3.9
Points per game: 15.5
Steals per game: 1.0
Blocks per game: .5
Assists per game: 2.6
Rebounds per game: 3.7
Idk about better defense. Those are subjective stats really. While I applaud that he has more steals I feel that there must be more indicative stats out there to prove Hendo is a better overall defender. I could be wrong but I am curious as to how many points each allows on any given night. Shooting % of the opposing player when guarded by each respectively.
So the stats that everyone uses to evaluate a player are subjective.....and you feel there must be more indicative stats out there to prove your opinion. Yet, you don't know what they are or where to find them.
Basically you think Hendo is a better defender.....just because.
I don't mean to sound like I know it all or anything, but judging how good a player is at defense based solely on steals or blocks is a TERRIBLE way to evaluate said player. Steals and blocks are nice, obviously, but a high steal rate doesn't necessarily equate to good defense. Guys like Bruce Bowen and Thabo Sefolosha are considered great defenders, but they don't average a lot of steals for their career. On the flip side Kemba averaged 2 spg and was top 5 in the league in steals, but he graded out to be an AWFUL defensive player. Actually, looking at it -- this year Thabo averaged his 2nd most amount of spg ever, but had a bad year defensively.
Just for a comparison of one on one defense between Henderson and Ellis.
Henderson gave up 0.66 points per possession when he was guarding a player in isolation.
Ellis gave up 0.81 points per possession when he was guarding a player in isolation.
Henderson gave up 0.94 points per possession when he was guarding a player in PnR (ballhandler).
Ellis gave up 0.58 points per possession when he was guarding a player in PnR (ballhandler).
I won't really say that one is better defensively than the other, but they both have their strengths and weaknesses. Henderson is the better ISO defender by far, while Ellis is the better PnR defender by far. I feel that Henderson's size sets him a bit apart from Ellis, however. That's just my opinion though. I will also say that you can't fully judge a players defense just based on these Synergy stats, because defense isn't just about you, but also the entire team, as well as the coaching. If you have a defensive minded coach that has a slower offensive system, a good rim protector, and solid defensive players around you then that will make your defensive numbers on Synergy look a ton better. Either way, though steals and blocks aren't a very good way to judge a players defense.
True, but DeRozan is a top seven, some might say top five shooting guard in this league.
Raptor fans generally don't even like DeRozan tbh lol. He's a worse SG than Hendo. The only thing DeRozan does well is scoring, but he's also a major ball stopper. He doesn't rebound, doesn't pass, doesn't get steals, blocks, or play defense. He'd honestly be a downgrade from Henderson, especially at 10 million per season.
Taylor was a better offensive player coming out than Hendo was, and he has a pretty good 3point range. Hendo's offensive game wasn't so good and he managed to improve his jumper. So, i dont get what you mean, especially when Taylor is the better shooter.
And, I didn't mean to make it sound like Taylor should make a switch to the 2. More so that he'll be able to play the 2 on situation.
What I mean is that Taylor isn't able to create his own shot and has always been best as a spot up shooter. Henderson has always been able to create his own shot. Don't get me wrong, I really like Taylor, but he is a spot up shooter, a 3 and D player at this juncture, and the chances that he will be able to create his own shot consistently in the future is quite low. Honestly the main reason why he was drafted in the 2nd round is because he is a 3 and D player. He is really athletic, can throw down nasty dunks, play great defense, and shoot well from three... but there is a catch... he is strictly a spot up shooter. Otherwise, if he were everything that I listed, plus able to create his own shot then he would've been a top pick. He's just always been considered a 3 and D player. Really, nothing wrong with that.
I get that people are just sick of the losing, but rebuilding when we did absolutely was the right decision and we should have rebuilt before that. As you mention, "thatlookseasy", that Bobcats team of Felton, Jackson, Wallace, Diaw, and Chandler wasn't going anywhere. We currently sit in a much better position with our young, but developing team of Kemba, Hendo, MKG, McRoberts, Biz. To be honestly I could see us making a big jump in wins next season if we get an all-star caliber PF and our young guys develop a lot. Obviously I'd rather be awful again and get a franchise player in the 2014 draft, but I could see us drafting outside of the top 5.
Anyways, I'm pretty happy with the Clifford hire. He's a solid coach and I hope that he will turn us into a good defensive team. There is absolutely no reason why we cannot be one of the better defensive teams in the NBA. We most certainly should not be the worst defensive team in the NBA.
Hendo are MKG are both good defenders. MKG has potential to be a great defender (he already ranked in the top 50 for guarding isolation, post up, PnR, and a couple of other offensive plays -- that's versatility!) Kemba got us 2 steals per game this year and Biz has the potential to be a very good defensive player. We just need to add a PF and add a guy like Oladipo and our defensive potential to through the roof.
I don't buy the whole "Bazz has poor work ethic". Everything that I've ever seen or heard from Bazz implies that he wants to be great. From him talking about wanting to be great, to wanting the ball in his hands, to being upset that he didn't get the last shot against Washington. Honestly a lot of people were hating on Bazz for not being happy about his teammate shooting (and making) the game winning shot against Washington, but I see it in a different light. Sure, he should have reacted a bit differently because his team just won the game. However, it shows that he has a passion for the game. He wants to be the guy. He wants the game winning shots. He wants to be a star. I am a huge Kobe fan and I've seen him upset in the rare occurrence that he didn't get the ball with the game on the line. Bazz has that same killer instinct, "I wanna be great" gene. The only difference is that Kobe wouldn't have acted like Bazz did. He would've been happy that the shot went in. I have a feeling that the UCLA team has terrible chemistry this season and they just didn't get along or like one another. I don't know, I don't want to justify his reaction with that, but it does show me that he wants to be a star.
92 would hammer 2012 down low, and the physicality alone would throw many of today's stars off their games IMO.
Oh yeah, 2012 Kobe ain't coming close to guarding 92 Jordan. Not in his damn dreams. LBJ would have to guard him to control Jordan at all. Then throw in the fact that LBJ played the 4 and even the 5 a lot for the 2012 team, and matchup problems come everywhere then. 2012 would have to rely on Kobe/Durant and Co. bombing 3's on the 92 team. It may be closer than some originally thought, but still not that close IMO.
Honestly Jordan alone would command a double team and that would leave some great shooters open, or even a big. People act like LeBron is this great defender that can actually defend all 5 positions well, but it just simply isn't true. I know that he looks the part of a very good defender, but his chase down blocks and big size just has everyone fooled. MySynergy records all defensive plays that a player is involved in and has LeBron ranked in the 100's, with his isolation defense being below average. Not to say that LeBron is a trashy defensive player, because he's not, but if you throw him on prime Jordan then LOL I would feel pretty bad for him.