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ARSEN

Game of Thrones - Season 8

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You have to think that Cersei is going to use her dragon killing weapons to kill one of Danny's dragons, I mean, it's been in the opening sequence all dang season.

Danny and Jon are going to meet with Cersei and attempt to talk it over with her.  Maybe even bring up the Iron Bank debt (the kingdom owes 10s of millions to the Iron Bank), she can go back to the rock with her brother, etc.  Cersei will play nice, then kill Danny, not knowing that Jon is the true heir to the Iron Throne.  We'll have Clegaine-bowl, and Arya will murder Cersei before she can escape.

Yeah, there's three good episodes there.  And we haven't even done anything with the Greyjoys.  Or seen what is the recovery for the North is.  

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40 minutes ago, London Loves Luke said:

 

We should have seen the wights fight and the living start to get an upper hand (in all honesty they would have with better tactics plus use of the dragons). Then the white walkers get involved, with some scenes of NK + Bran "communicating", then the NK properly enters the fray and lays waste to everything (including John) before the long jump + stab.

But we got what we got, I dont care what anyone says but this wasnt a well written villain and the fight didn't provide as much emotion as it should have. Lets hope the next few episodes deliver.

IMO, the living should frankly never get the upper hand in the battle vs the wights/dead.  I mean the wight's have no regards for their safety and the Night King can continuously add to his army in fight w/ the newly deceased.  Unless you take out the Night King....mankind should of always been on the losing side in the battle.  Don't see how the living realistically should ever have the upper hand. 

But the Night King and White Walkers had 1 technical kill in the entire battle of all battles.  That is a joke.   The big bads did literally nothing. 

Too much plot armor at this point on main characters.  No reason in that battle at least half of the known folks shouldn't of died.   I think if they simply did that....the episode would have been better.  Game of Thrones has lost it's way in that regard.  Past few seasons have gone from anyone can die....to sike!  no one is going to die until it is painfully obvious there time has come. 

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38 minutes ago, London Loves Luke said:

Good battle episode, hoardes of wights and some nice character touches through the fighting scenes. 

But. The NK did not pay off. The biggest villian we've been fed since scene 1 ep 1 was not properly realised because we didnt see the full extent of his power, understand his motive or have any connection with him at all. Compare him to Thanos, we can relate to his motive, see his struggle, understand his strength (with and w/out the gauntlet) its all about HIM. With the NK we get a whole hoard of faceless dead people and it all gets blown away by a simple dagger to his chest by an assassin who (although Arya's character was developed 2 seasons ago) is a very inconsistent character in terms of her strength, ability, loyalty etc.... 

IF the battle had built up through the NKs strengths and how the "good guys" work through them and ended with a fight involving the NK, it would have been so much more satisfying. Some dialogue/flashbacks between the NK and Bran would have "humanised" him a bit, might of got us to understand what he wanted a lot more and then it all gets ripped away at the last minute. 

We should have seen the wights fight and the living start to get an upper hand (in all honesty they would have with better tactics plus use of the dragons). Then the white walkers get involved, with some scenes of NK + Bran "communicating", then the NK properly enters the fray and lays waste to everything (including John) before the long jump + stab.

But we got what we got, I dont care what anyone says but this wasnt a well written villain and the fight didn't provide as much emotion as it should have. Lets hope the next few episodes deliver.

My understanding is that the NK is Death. There is no motive. There is nothing to understand. There is no perspective. He is death personified and while there is no depth to his character, he is the unstoppable force. He is a natural grinding away of life that feels unrelenting and unstoppable. There has only been one character in the entire show (aside from the NK) who has their entire character arc centered around killing. Arya.

You could debate how to increase drama and tension in the battle in order to maximize what you want, or what I wanted, etc. I personally wouldn't have given as much plot armor to many of the characters. Each corner of the keep seemed to have a star defending themselves surrounded by impossible odds but alas, it is what it is.

As for well written villains, the show runners indicated he's not anything more than a force of nature. He's never had a single line of dialogue. He's never explained his motivation. Just as you cannot explain the motivation of fundamental forces of nature. Super powerful villains are very hard to pull off with humanizing. Characters like Cersei, Tywin or Walder Frey are much easier to write as their interests and motivations can be relatable to the audience, thereby humanizing them. But when the motivation is to conquer life...there's not much there to relate to. You could argue that they made the fundamental mistake of making the NK completely unrelatable from the beginning. That making him a force of nature WAS the mistake. OK I can see that. I liked how they did it but we'll never know how it would've gone had they made different choices.

Regardless, I agree with you. I hope the next few episodes deliver and this amazing television ride ends satisfyingly. I expect it will.

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the more I reflect, the more Arya was the obvious person to take down the Night King.  The show in reality, did a tremendous job foreshadowing it and setting it up upon reflection. 

another thing they have pretty well established? If the folks in the North are going to take down the folks in the South? It won't be on the back of any battle strategy Jon Snow is part of.   Which is a good thing.  They don't have the numbers.  And they obviously aren't going to use the dragons to just burn the place down. 

So someone not named Jon or Dany will be responsible for that as well. 

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49 minutes ago, CRA said:

the more I reflect, the more Arya was the obvious person to take down the Night King.  The show in reality, did a tremendous job foreshadowing it and setting it up upon reflection. 

another thing they have pretty well established? If the folks in the North are going to take down the folks in the South? It won't be on the back of any battle strategy Jon Snow is part of.   Which is a good thing.  They don't have the numbers.  And they obviously aren't going to use the dragons to just burn the place down. 

So someone not named Jon or Dany will be responsible for that as well. 

Sansa. She is the smartest of the North and will come up with the idea. 

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58 minutes ago, CRA said:

IMO, the living should frankly never get the upper hand in the battle vs the wights/dead.  I mean the wight's have no regards for their safety and the Night King can continuously add to his army in fight w/ the newly deceased.  Unless you take out the Night King....mankind should of always been on the losing side in the battle.  Don't see how the living realistically should ever have the upper hand. 

But the Night King and White Walkers had 1 technical kill in the entire battle of all battles.  That is a joke.   The big bads did literally nothing. 

Too much plot armor at this point on main characters.  No reason in that battle at least half of the known folks shouldn't of died.   I think if they simply did that....the episode would have been better.  Game of Thrones has lost it's way in that regard.  Past few seasons have gone from anyone can die....to sike!  no one is going to die until it is painfully obvious there time has come. 

You say the living should never have the upper hand over the dead wights but I think the opposite. You have two dragons and you have trebuchets and trenches. i dont know who's idea it was to send the dothraki in to charge an army they couldnt see but my left nut could tell you that isn't a good battle strategy. 

The more i think about it, the battles John is involved in (and Michel Sapochnik (!) directs) are generally just situations where he's screwed from the very beginning and is miraculously saved at then end. 

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59 minutes ago, Moorgan said:

My understanding is that the NK is Death. There is no motive. There is nothing to understand. There is no perspective. He is death personified and while there is no depth to his character, he is the unstoppable force. He is a natural grinding away of life that feels unrelenting and unstoppable. There has only been one character in the entire show (aside from the NK) who has their entire character arc centered around killing. Arya.

You could debate how to increase drama and tension in the battle in order to maximize what you want, or what I wanted, etc. I personally wouldn't have given as much plot armor to many of the characters. Each corner of the keep seemed to have a star defending themselves surrounded by impossible odds but alas, it is what it is.

As for well written villains, the show runners indicated he's not anything more than a force of nature. He's never had a single line of dialogue. He's never explained his motivation. Just as you cannot explain the motivation of fundamental forces of nature. Super powerful villains are very hard to pull off with humanizing. Characters like Cersei, Tywin or Walder Frey are much easier to write as their interests and motivations can be relatable to the audience, thereby humanizing them. But when the motivation is to conquer life...there's not much there to relate to. You could argue that they made the fundamental mistake of making the NK completely unrelatable from the beginning. That making him a force of nature WAS the mistake. OK I can see that. I liked how they did it but we'll never know how it would've gone had they made different choices.

Regardless, I agree with you. I hope the next few episodes deliver and this amazing television ride ends satisfyingly. I expect it will.

If he was just a force of nature we wouldn't have had the scene about how he was created and all these theories about his back story and everything else. He used to be a person and he has some intelligence to him - that's fertile ground for good character development, which in all honesty wouldnt have taken long to add. 

Watching the "Making of" video on Youtube I honestly think this episode didn't have enough time to be made properly and was made under a lot of pressure and stress, each of the people involed in it was saying how much they wouldn't want to do it again. They migh have had to concede some plot/attention to detail to actually just get the thing done. 

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That makes sense. Even at almost 90 minutes I could see how they felt rushed. As was brought up (probably in this thread) the NK is not a character in the books. So any kind of actual writing thought into his background was all done by the show. You're right that they could've gone into who he was as a human and how that could've been developed but they literally chose not to and instead made him more akin to Michael Meyers (aka The Shape). Not exactly emotionless like Meyers but more as a force of evil and devoid of character. I honestly don't think they knew exactly what they were doing or how it was going to end and they made decisions that they are hamstrung by now. But also, they've done a good job with the decisions they made and weaving those throughout the story. So while they are limited by some of their decisions in the past, they have done a very good job going forward with the bed they made. If that makes sense.

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1 hour ago, London Loves Luke said:

You say the living should never have the upper hand over the dead wights but I think the opposite. You have two dragons and you have trebuchets and trenches. i dont know who's idea it was to send the dothraki in to charge an army they couldnt see but my left nut could tell you that isn't a good battle strategy. 

The more i think about it, the battles John is involved in (and Michel Sapochnik (!) directs) are generally just situations where he's screwed from the very beginning and is miraculously saved at then end. 

I mean the gameplan was horrible.  Not debating that.  Snow is a horrible general/leader in battle.  He never should of survived BOTB.  Frankly, none of them should of.   Same w/ this battle. 

But take out the dragons for a minute.  Any battle that gives the dead a mass number advantage means they have the upper hand and should.   Because they are dead.  They simply will defeat trenches/fire/opponents/whatever by sacrificing themselves w/ numbers.   Our heroes have even broken down w/ they are always at the disadvantage. 

I mean you obviously, draw up a new game plan that is dragon heavy and smarter.  But if you do that, you can also draw up a counter the NK could do w/ his dragon and more importantly his ability to use the weather to nerf the opposing dragons.   So if you suggests the obvious of sending the dragons ahead of the Dothraki and lighting them up? Well, NK could of just brought the storm earlier and his dragon earlier as well.  

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Y'all gonna be pissed when my girl Cersei still sits atop of the throne when all this is all over.  

 

 

 

 

 

Doubt she makes it , but that is who I am pulling for. 

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33 minutes ago, Johnny Rockets said:

Y'all gonna be pissed when my girl Cersei still sits atop of the throne when all this is all over.  

 

 

 

 

 

Doubt she makes it , but that is who I am pulling for. 

she better fuging not....I did not watch 8 seasons of this just for Cersei to do nothing and still win. 

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Cersei winning would totally be Game of Thrones lol.  

They really needed Stannis to draw up a game plan there....

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1 hour ago, Johnny Rockets said:

Y'all gonna be pissed when my girl Cersei still sits atop of the throne when all this is all over.  

 

 

 

 

 

Doubt she makes it , but that is who I am pulling for. 

Game of Thrones isn't suppose to have a happy ending.  It isn't a fairy tale.  Heros don't always win.  That at least was the story they were telling. 

but it seems once they set that foundation/narrative.  The TV show at least seems poised to now go for classic fairy tale type story telling now that they have no script. Only way to describe the past couple seasons vs the first couple.  Even if Martin told them Arya gets the kill.  They seem to fall victim of traditional plot armor and good guy issues now that the are on their own

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I'd be both shocked and happy if Cersei ends up on top. I enjoy those kinds of change ups. As long as it is executed well, I don't really care who they have on top at the end.

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Subversion for the sake of subversion is not good storytelling. 

I was honestly disappointed in the episode for a number of reasons that I'm sure were detailed earlier in this thread. 

It honestly took the hype away from the end of the show for me. 

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