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Khyber53

A little perspective on Allen

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11 minutes ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

it is. i know you need it not to be for your explanation to work but unless you're going to make that case then you need to drop it.

i don't discount the wins. i properly credit those responsible for the win. you see that as "discounting" the win because you think the credit should go to allen. between his performances we've seen on the field and the reasoned critiques we've seen since then, this is curious. this is why we have spent time dissecting his performance on this forum, much to the anger of those who would label myself and others "cam only" fans who "don't want to win"

a win is a win and i have never said otherwise. but when you can improve a position or, in this case, you risk permanently making a position significantly weaker, you should speak on it. we have no problem playing internet GM or internet head coach (because this is a discussion forum) right up until the udfa backup comes in for some reason. very curious.

he has thrown some really poor balls and those balls will be intercepted over time. im sorry if you feel threatened by that but you gauge a quarterback's performance by his decision making, the quality of his throws and pocket presence, not by the statistical outcomes. in other words, you judge a player by the things they can control. if 10 good passes are dropped by receivers, that doesn't make the quarterback bad. if 10 bad passes are dropped by defenders, that doesn't make the quarterback good. talking about a quarterback in terms of "interceptable" passes is perfectly valid because that tracks with the number of interceptions thrown over time.

cam has looked elite as recently as last year and given the circumstances it is fair to say that he would still look elite today if he hadn't been injured. unless you have access to his medical records or are privy to some information that the rest of us aren't that would suggest that he will not return to a healthy state, talking about a clearly injured player in terms of "past glory" and "current performance" is disingenuous as hell.

Yeah, I'm not interested enough in your attempt to say that everybody except Kyle Allen deserves credit for winning to read all that.

I'll just remind you that all that writing you just did won't affect what the Panthers think of Kyle Allen.

Edited by Mr. Scot

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33 minutes ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

same here. the problem being that walking away from an mvp quarterback in favor of a guy like kyle allen doesn't seem to be a decision driven by a desire to win. you can point to his record all you want but his performance on the field doesn't suggest a higher probability of winning a super bowl. deep down you know this. personally i would rather stick with the proven mvp instead of waiting for allen's "interceptable" passes to become "intercepted" passes. for "his" wins to become the team's losses.

The flaw in your statement is that post-injury Cam Newton is NOT proven...and that’s the guy who Allen is competing against.

Calling Cam an “MVP Quarterback” a hundred times isn’t going to make it any more relevant in the present day. We might as well recruit 5-time MVP-winning Peyton Manning out of retirement to quarterback our team if that’s such a meaningful qualifier to you.

Aside from the obvious trolls, 95% of people on here are saying a 100% healthy Cam Newton is our best QB option. The other 5% are saying “Allen probably shouldn’t be benched as long as he’s winning”, which is hardly some inflammatory racial comment towards Cam. 

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1 hour ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

you're welcome to make that case but imo calling his value "immense" is exactly the kind of thing that's driving backlash. is there "immense" value in his individual performance? or is there "immense" value in not having to go wildcat or something when the starter goes down? these are two different things that often get conflated here. you see obviously stupid posts from people who want you to believe that there's a single thing allen does that cam hasn't already proven to do better, that naturally leads to a response, and the person who responds to the stupid post is then cast as a "cam only" fan with an agenda. that's because some of the people attempting to portray themselves as unbiased and above the fray and team first have actually been waiting for this moment since cam was drafted. there's layers to it all and the people trying to stifle discussion or otherwise silence the very valid criticisms of this udfa backup are suspect

Value is not just about on-the-field play. He was a UDFA that has outperformed expectations.   He hasn't lost us a game, he has delivered some big plays in some situations.  He has been an excellent young backup, and who knows what else he could be.

Fwiw, there are plenty of valid criticisms of Allen.  Many of us have said he needs to step it up if we are going to have a chance to win games if Cam can't make it back fully healthy soon.  "LOL HES BLIND" is not a valid criticism, esp. when half the plays highlighted are being interpreted incorrectly - or at least, there are plenty of other ways to view what is happening.

Tons of stupid posts, to be sure.  They have always existed and always will.  You will note several of us defending Allen are also defending Cam in some of the idiotic "hurr he isn't flying to London" threads.

I agree some posters have an agenda.  But there are posters with a "pro Cam" agenda and there are posters that have the opposite agenda.   

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2 minutes ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

and out you go with a whimper. how about not wasting my time anymore?

I just prevented you from wasting mine, actually.

If we win a Super Bowl with Kyle Allen or Christian McCaffrey wins MVP,  I'm sure you'll be on here trying to desperately argue why both were invalid, but here's the thing...

Nobody cares.

Allen will still be a Super Bowl champion. McCaffrey will still be an MVP. And you'll still just be a sad, angry guy ranting on a message board while people are laughing at you.

For me, if the Panthers win a Super Bowl, I won't give a damn who played well or who gets the credit. I'll be happy. Ditto with who wins the MVP (probably Mahomes). Winning games means infinitely more than winning awards.

Maybe you should try being happy with winning rather than being obsessed with who gets the credit.

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7 minutes ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

and he's not been given a chance because the idiotic coaching staff had him out there playing on a lisfranc injury while shaking off shoulder rust. he is not only owed that chance, it is in the best interest of this franchise to give him every opportunity to demonstrate his worth because a bet that post-injury cam will perform at a high enough level to potentially win a super bowl is much safer than a bet that kyle allen will ever play at that level in his life. if you have ambitions of winning a super bowl with this roster, you bet on cam. if it's time to rebuild, you go with allen.

0 takes from the "allen shouldn't be benched as long as he's winning" crew when mccaffrey hurt his back, cramped up and bonnafon immediately ripped off a huge touchdown run. and don't try to quantify the level of racial animus on this forum unless you're prepared to explain how you got to that number.

you're really the one coming in throwing shade at allen every chance you get.   backup at best, blah blah blah after 4 nfl starts.  its every chance you get.   you have no idea what the kid will or won't be at this point. none of us do.   you're so butt hurt about people questioning cam you can't help yourself.   its obvious and you're lame as fug.   but have fun trying to spoil the fact that we're actually winning, something that hasn't happened until kyle took over at qb.   now if your preferred qb can stop lying about his health, and then announcing his lies to the public looking like a rapper from the 90's, maybe we can get somewhere.

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1 minute ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

if we're not supposed to talk about who has been good and who has been bad then what the fug are we supposed to talk about?

again, you are extremely sensitive to valid criticism of allen. work that out however you have to but it's not going to stop people from posting.

You can talk about whatever you want, but then others are equally able to talk about what you wrote and call it stupid if they want to (as many here have).

As to being "afraid", I've actually offered my own criticism of Allen.

Difference being I don't have an agenda.

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7 minutes ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

and he's not been given a chance because the idiotic coaching staff had him out there playing on a lisfranc injury while shaking off shoulder rust. he is not only owed that chance, it is in the best interest of this franchise to give him every opportunity to demonstrate his worth because a bet that post-injury cam will perform at a high enough level to potentially win a super bowl is much safer than a bet that kyle allen will ever play at that level in his life. if you have ambitions of winning a super bowl with this roster, you bet on cam. if it's time to rebuild, you go with allen.

0 takes from the "allen shouldn't be benched as long as he's winning" crew when mccaffrey hurt his back, cramped up and bonnafon immediately ripped off a huge touchdown run. and don't try to quantify the level of racial animus on this forum unless you're prepared to explain how you got to that number.

So is your issue with the posters in here who are advocating for Kyle Allen?  Or with the coaching staff who you have already pre-determined are not going to give Cam a fair shake to compete for the starting position once he's healthy?

An issue people have with your takes is that you have already seemingly projected the entirety of Kyle Allen's career based off of 4 games.  You're talking about giving Cam a chance post-injury but do not seem to be affording Kyle Allen that same chance to compete and progress.  Does Kyle Allen coming in and winning 3 straight games to steer us on the path towards playoff contention not award him the opportunity to compete?  Obviously Cam has endless accolades and immense success in this league and Allen's accomplishments pale in comparison, but that's the nature of being 4 starts into your career.

And you can't be serious with your last statement...McCaffrey is a frontrunner for MVP this year while having a sizable, measurable impact on our wins.  Cam (while injured) has arguably had the opposite impact on our losses.  If Cam was performing at the respective level of McCaffrey this year in his 2 starts, then no one (aside from the racist trolls) would be talking about benching him.  Anyways, people have been using that Bonnafon run as ammunition for why he should get more touches to give McCaffrey some rest...so that doesn't really support your argument.

I said "aside from the obvious trolls" (including the ones who are racially motivated), since their takes don't even warrant a response.  My numbers aren't really meant to be taken literally...just as general vague assessment of the collective sentiments of the Huddle.  Just go into Jeremy's thread about whether Cam should start against the 49ers.  The overwhelming sentiment is "yes, if he's 100%".

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Just now, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

can't call you stupid for your stupid posts because you go on reporting sprees lol

anyway speaking of stupid posts and you specifically being very stupid, i hate that you never explained why you described that kyle allen film analysis as a "hit piece" after spending years defending nolan nawrocki's racist "scouting report" from people calling it a hit piece (when it very clearly was)

hmmmmm i wonder if whatever it was that compelled you to defend the author of the racist hit piece could be influencing your posts here itt today:thinking::thinking::thinking:

lmao yeah dude totally above the fray

Aaaand you lose, like usual.

You're really bad at this :)

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23 hours ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

This.

Allen’s play means we don’t know what Grier may or may not become, and if you’re going to point to the preseason as any indicator, remember that’s the same preseason in which Allen looked like nothing special and certainly not someone we’d expect to go 3-0 if Cam was out.

The fastest way to make a developmental guy bust is to make him play sooner than he’s ready.

Aaron Rodgers was a first round pick and was still shaky his first season playing after sitting 3 seasons,..

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25 minutes ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

holy yikes

about what i expected from you.  

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1 minute ago, JARROD said:

The fastest way to make a developmental guy bust is to make him play sooner than he’s ready.

Aaron Rodgers was a first round pick and was still shaky his first season playing after sitting 3 seasons,..

True, although I do think that the proliferation of 7on 7 drills and high school coaches nationwide increasingly willing to throw the ball regularly at that level combined with all out pass wackiness at the college level means more and more about prospects arrive in the NFL ready to play day one even compared to Rogers early years.

I think that’s why we’re seeing more guys able to succeed faster than we used to, because they re showing up more prepared to play, more accustomed to throwing it as often as running, and more familiar with pro style passing concepts and how to read defenses.

 

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to me cam looks like an idiot in that video, about 25 yrs out of date and trying to rebrand himself in a failing manner.  he's getting made fun of all over the place.    the actual issue is that he lied to his coaches, trainers, and teammates.  he cost us 2 games. ( rivera is also responsible for not pulling the plug).  the bigger issue is he back stabbed a coach who has been covering for him by disclosing his lies to the public in hopes for sympathy points on youtube.    i don't really care that he's like AB lite, except for the lying and disclosing those lies to the public.

Edited by raz
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2 minutes ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

ah yes the old "you called me stupid in response to my post calling you stupid therefore you lose"

you're pathetic lol but most importantly you are wrong and you know it. ive seen enough of your posts to know that you will never ever bail on an argument that you feel like you're winning. you love a good victory lap. you've been trying to remove yourself from this thread for a few posts now. hmmm

but while you're here feel free to explain why you labeled analysis of allen's performance a "hit piece" when you repeatedly, for years, pushed back against claims that nolan nawrocki wrote a hit piece.

Nah.

I just know that when you recognize you're losing or have nothing else to say, this is what you fall back on.

It's also fun because it reminds me that I'm just a guy here having fun talking football while you're playing Don Quixote :)

Bottom Line: If we win a Super Bowl with Cam, Newton, Kyle Allen, Will Grier or Dontari Poe at quarterback, I'll still be happy, whereas you'll only be happy if it's with who you want.

That's pretty pathetic.

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5 minutes ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

True, although I do think that the proliferation of 7on 7 drills and high school coaches nationwide increasingly willing to throw the ball regularly at that level combined with all out pass wackiness at the college level means more and more about prospects arrive in the NFL ready to play day one even compared to Rogers early years.

I think that’s why we’re seeing more guys able to succeed faster than we used to, because they re showing up more prepared to play, more accustomed to throwing it as often as running, and more familiar with pro style passing concepts and how to read defenses.

 

It’s still too fast for most of them. The Blake Bortles and RGs and others were ruined by playing them too fast.

theres too many Millennial thinking now where everything has to be now, no work to earn anything or develop the right way.

and it shows.

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9 minutes ago, raz said:

to me cam looks like an idiot in that video, about 25 yrs out of date and trying to rebrand himself in a failing manner.  he's getting made fun of all over the place.    the actual issue is that he lied to his coaches, trainers, and teammates.  he cost us 2 games. ( rivera is also responsible for not pulling the plug).  the bigger issue is he back stabbed a coach who has been covering for him by disclosing his lies to the public in hopes for sympathy points on youtube.    i don't really care that he's like AB lite, except for the lying and disclosing those lies to the public.

if I am going to try to make a WR comparison I ain't going AB.  I'd go back a few years and go w/ like a Chad Johnson type.  Chad had the attention issues but not the  bad AB type.  Plus his teammates liked him and he was just a fun dude.

 

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