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Saca312

Is Kyle Allen Actually A Good QB?

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4 minutes ago, ellis said:

Oh, sure. Like I’ve said before: you’d better be pretty damn sure you know you what you’re looking at before you make any proclamations about a play or player. 

Even then, it’s prudent to not be an absolutist. Football is a funny game, full of strange bounces and odd moments. Not everything can be quantified. 

I remember asking a guy who claimed to be doing film analysis (but who I thought was full of sh-t) if he got a certain piece of information by listening to the audio commentary on the All 22.

He said yes.

Anybody who's actually accessed All 22 knows where that went wrong :)

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That’s the part about this that I stay focused on:

15 minutes ago, DubE_4MR said:

Good breakdown. When you put it in perspective you have a guy that's a 2nd year QB in only his 5th start. He was a 5 star recruit coming out of high school but never landed in the right situation in college. He was recruited by Tom Herman to come to Houston but then Herman left to take the Texas job and left Allen stranded in an offense that preferred to have the QB play a big role in the run game. 

I think by going through what he did in college, he lost some crucial steps in his development process. But he looks like a guy that's finally coming into his own and it helps that he has guys like Norv Turner, Cam Newton, Scott Turner and even other veteran players like Greg O to support his development and learning process. 

I am excited to see more of what Allen brings to the table. 

That’s the part about this I try to stay focused on: being excited about the development of a potentially (very) good QB. I really liked what I saw from him in the New Orleans game, and no...it wasn’t just against back ups. It was against multiple fronts, different coverages, and a lot of blitzing from different looks. Their starters played the entire first half, and Allen helped put together several scoring drives. He picked up where he left off in Arizona, and hasn’t lost a game since. He also hasn’t thrown a pick (well, one, but it was called back). The fumbles were awful. And that’s still a concern. But it appears he’s worked hard on cleaning that up. 

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4 minutes ago, ellis said:

That’s the part about this that I stay focused on:

That’s the part about this I try to stay focused on: being excited about the development of a potentially (very) good QB. I really liked what I saw from him in the New Orleans game, and no...it wasn’t just against back ups. It was against multiple fronts, different coverages, and a lot of blitzing from different looks. Their starters played the entire first half, and Allen helped put together several scoring drives. He picked up where he left off in Arizona, and hasn’t lost a game since. He also hasn’t thrown a pick (well, one, but it was called back). The fumbles were awful. And that’s still a concern. But it appears he’s worked hard on cleaning that up. 

It's hard to gauge where he's at from the small sample size, but compared to his peers (other 1st/2nd year QBs like Mayfield, Allen, Rosen, Darnold, Lamar, Kyler, Haskins,  Daniel Jones, Gardner Minshew, Mason Rudolph, etc.) he looks like he belongs and was an absolute steal as an UDFA. 

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I don't have the time to watch the All 22 and break it down, and even if I did, I don't have the background to understand what I'm seeing. The national guys (Baldinger aside) don't give much time to the Panthers (small market, I get it). 

I just wanted to say I appreciate you guys like @Saca312 and @ellis who do have the time and expertise and share it with us.

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1 hour ago, DubE_4MR said:

Good breakdown. When you put it in perspective you have a guy that's a 2nd year QB in only his 5th start. He was a 5 star recruit coming out of high school but never landed in the right situation in college. He was recruited by Tom Herman to come to Houston but then Herman left to take the Texas job and left Allen stranded in an offense that preferred to have the QB play a big role in the run game. 

I think by going through what he did in college, he lost some crucial steps in his development process. But he looks like a guy that's finally coming into his own and it helps that he has guys like Norv Turner, Cam Newton, Scott Turner and even other veteran players like Greg O to support his development and learning process. 

I am excited to see more of what Allen brings to the table. 

I agree on all of this.  He also seems Unphased by all of this.  Just watch his press conferences, he’s about as calm and collected a person as you will ever see. A trait that all great QB’s have.  I’m not saying he’s going to be great, but once in a while $hit like that does happen to the least expected.  No one here felt he was worth a damn and he’s proven everyone wrong up to this point. People love him because he’s an underdog. I hope Cam comes back healthy and proves to everyone he can be 2015 great again, but it’s been so long since we have seen that level of play from him that it’s starting to seem like it’s not likely. If Cam can’t get back to that level I hope Allen keeps

proving folks wrong by performing at a level that most  thought impossible.  It’s apparent that at some point in the past people believed in him and the Panthers  staff, like them or not, must have too.   

Edited by ickmule
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2 hours ago, ellis said:

Film analysis should be encouraged....if you have a basic understanding of concepts, coverages, routes and football in general. The original poster here does, I can tell you that.

It’s absolutely not a waste of time. It’s a great education, going thru the process. It enhances the football experience for me—especially after a loss. It beats sitting around all week stewing over it. 

My analysis isn’t always correct. In fact, I get a kick out of pointing out when it’s not. We make light of it on Twitter. Like when I railed on Butler all off-season, and now he’s playing at a high level. But every once in a while you get it right. That feels productive. Especially when it’s not just “guessing.” 

The criticisms aren’t with his ability to analyze film, but rather his ability to analyze film objectively. If you can analyze film and make it presentable (as Saca can do), it’s important that you use that ability responsibly because it’s very easy to paint any narrative you want with one or two carefully hand-selected GIFs...which Saca is notorious for doing. The Huddle is very impressionable so these kinds of posts are exactly the type of posts that will effectively perpetuate these kinds of biased narratives.

Even under the guise of “Hey I think Kyle Allen could be good and he’s improving!”, he presents some very selective GIFs displaying some of Allen’s flaws and then contrasts them with some very selective GIFs of Cam with a display of superiority...when everyone knows there are tons of examples you could pick of both QBs with good and bad displays of that particular aspect of QB play.
 

I mean, he shows the Jairus Wright throw where Allen could’ve easily got him hurt (objectively a bad decision) and shows one where Cam places the ball a little behind Funchess to protect him from the hit, but neglects to account for down and distance. If he throws behind Wright then it’s short of the first down and we punt anyways...Funchess was well beyond the first down marker and it was 1st and 10. Allen looked like he was trying to hit Wright in stride to give him a chance to gain the yardage for the first down, but again it was a bad decision with the defender closing in. His conclusion of “hey he should’ve just place it a little behind Wright” wouldn’t have done us much good. That’s either intellectually dishonest or a clear lack of critical thinking...but Saca obviously puts a lot of time and effort into these posts so I’m gonna go with the first option.

Plus he's constantly trying to dictate Kyle Allen's ceiling based off of 5 games.  Even in his most positive Kyle Allen thread, he concludes with "At best, he has the traits to become a decent starter".  Seriously?  Says who?  What kind of objective analysis is that.

Edited by MasterAwesome
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We’re five games in. My only analysis in July was the Saints game should not be discounted, and that the throws and reads he made situationally gave me reason to believe he could win games and run Turner’s offense efficiently. 

He’s exceeded my expectations thus far, and my expectations were fairly high. 

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all this talk about film analysis.  Meh.  It really isn't that hard. 

For example, I have really been hitting it hard and I have no formal training...and I feel pretty confident this Luke Augustus Kuechly fella is pretty good.  I mean if someone wants to argue otherwise so be it.  Yall should start watching this kid more closely.  I'm telling ya.  He good.  

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46 minutes ago, PantherOnTheProwl1523 said:

I like Tim over there at the Panthers Wire. He raises some valid points. I’m less concerned about stacking up Kyle’s results vs who he played and more concerned with how comfortable he looks running this offense. The competition amps up vs SFO next week. 
 

He hasn’t come in and thrown a handful of ill-advised picks. The fumbles: highly problematic. But I’m hopeful he’s cleaned that up. He’s accurate, particularly on the intermediate stuff. He’s also done a great job in “bounce-back” situations, drives that follow an opponent’s score or his own turnover.

He’s been blessed with line play that appears to be finally meshing (as it typically does in October under Matsko). The pass/run ratio has been balanced. The recommitment to power football up front has been a huge part of the streak.

 

Edited by ellis
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Speaking of film review: If you're tired of Kyle Allen vs Cam Newton, here's a breakdown of Kyle Allen versus Kyler Murray by Ted Nguyen on The Athletic (subscription required)

Ted's Film Room

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This is also the first time in 25 years the franchise has been in the position of “have franchise QB, but other guy is winning games and playing well”. Kerry Collins imploded before Beuerlein came in and took over (and did quite well in 1999). Matt Moore did this late in 2007, and 2009, but I believe it was clearer that Jake was at the end of the line by 2009. Not sure we’re at that point with Newton yet. (Jake was closing in on his mid-30’s by then).

It’s all very new to the fan base, particularly the younger fans. I believe that explains a little bit of the panic out there. It’s a lot to digest. 

Edited by ellis
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Speaking of peripheral issues that help to win games: I’ve been highly impressed with punt coverage this year. Not only blocked punts, but plays like this:

There have been a couple decent returns, but for the most part it’s been very solid.

No catastrophes. Limited penalties. This helps to win games.

Edited by ellis

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7 minutes ago, ellis said:

I like Tim over there at the Panthers Wire. He raises some valid points. I’m less concerned about stacking up Kyle’s results vs who he played and more concerned with how comfortable he looks running this offense. The competition amps up vs SFO next week. 
 

He hasn’t come in and thrown a handful of ill-advised picks. The fumbles: highly problematic. But I’m hopeful he’s cleaned that up. He’s accurate, particularly on the intermediate stuff. He’s also done a great job in “bounce-back” situations, drives that follow an opponent’s score or his own turnover.

He’s been blessed with line play that appears to be finally meshing (as it typically does in October under Matsko). The pass/run ratio has been balanced. The recommitment to power football up front has been a huge part of the streak.

 

There are some valid points (albeit nothing that hasn't already been mentioned on these boards), but his writing doesn't appear to be entirely objective either.  How are you gonna tout Joey Slye carrying a heavy load as a reason for Kyle's success?  First off, FGs are generally still a function of your offense moving the ball (aside from points off turnovers, which he already addressed in a previous point).  Secondly, Slye was 6-7 on FG in the first 2 games, and 7-11 on FG in the last 4 games...you could argue he hurt us more than he helped us.

Also stated that Allen lost 6 fumbles which is wrong...he fumbled 6 times and lost 4.  He says he is "frankly lucky that number isn't higher", but that does not seem like an impartial objective assessment to make...I'm not sure how he even figures that.  Losing 4 of your 6 fumbles isn't lucky and until last game, Allen was fumbling on pretty much every sack...it couldn't have possibly been much worse.

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I just try to look at the facts. He hasn’t lost yet, four of his five wins on the road, he’s fumbled a lot, it appears he’s cleaned that up. 10 career TD’s, 0 career INT. 

That’s a pretty good body of work through five games. I want to see more.

 

Edited by ellis
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