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How NFL executives view Rhule

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27 minutes ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

Yes I'm fully aware of how hedge funds are run, but when I mentioned concrete information I didn't mean pointing to the way a fictional character behaves in a tv show about a hedge fund as evidence of how things are actually functioning in the real world with the management of our sports team....

Oh that was just an opening query, no worries...maybe I'm confusing you with someone else but aren't you in the restaurant business as a customer service rep? 

Are you REALLY familiar with "how hedge funds are run"...?   

Don't underestimate the accuracy of how Axe Capital is portrayed vs. real life...

 

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2 minutes ago, SizzleBuzz said:

Oh that was just an opening query, no worries...maybe I'm confusing you with someone else but aren't you in the restaurant business as a customer service rep? 

Are you REALLY familiar with "how hedge funds are run"...?   

Don't underestimate the accuracy of how Axe Capital is portrayed vs. real life...

 

I once worked in the restaurant industry. At present I'm a corporate sales trainer. My familiarity with the financial industry stems largely from having a close friend in the industry and having read extensively about Wall Street and the financial markets. Again, not sure how any hedge fund real or fictitious could plausibly be asserted to reliably demonstrate how our sports team is managed.  Tepper may or may not feel his sports team should be run using a similar management model. Part of being good at business is having the acumen to understand that not all businesses should be run in the same fashion.

I'm not saying our team is run this way, I'm not saying it's not. All I'm saying is that asserting it is based on nothing but the fact Tepper runs a hedge fun and a fictitious hedge fund on TV is run this way is pretty thin imo. Not to call you out in particular,  but when people assert things about the inner workings of a team, I'm always curious to know what actual information it is based upon or is it merely supposition.

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59 minutes ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

 My familiarity with the financial industry stems largely from having a close friend in the industry and having read extensively about Wall Street and the financial markets.

Not to call you out in particular,  but when people assert things about the inner workings of a team, I'm always curious to know what actual information it is based upon or is it merely supposition.

Got it -- you read a book and have a buddy.

Based on that, how would you describe a fund like Appaloosa (or Axe Capital)?  Flat?  Otherwise?  What are the 4 key positions that are responsible for generating returns?  BTW, it's all right there in the television program...

 

Edited by SizzleBuzz

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1 minute ago, SizzleBuzz said:

Got it -- you read a book and have a buddy.

Based on that, how would you describe a fund like Appaloosa (or Axe Capital)?  Flat?  Otherwise?  What are the 4 key positions that are responsible for generating returns?  BTW, it's all right there in the television program...

 

At the risk of repeating myself, I don't see how pointing to the way a fictional hedge fund is run on tv is a very strong argument for the way an NFL franchise that happens to be owned by a hedge fund manager is run in the real world. I haven't watched Billions extensively, at best I've seen a few clips on youtube, but I don't really need to watch a lot of it to know asserting it is predictive of how a rl sports franchise is run is a thin argument at best. 

You may or may not know why writing naked puts is a bad idea, who The Human Pirhana is irl, why Lewis Raneiri could be considered the grandfather of the housing market collapse or what the tax law change that made leveraged buyouts much less profitable and feasible after the 80's was and why Kolberg Kravis and Roberts forced out founder Kolberg.

Whether you do or you don't, these things have about as much bearing on how the Panthers are actually run as how flat Appaloosa is as an organization and who is responsible for generating the returns (inevitably it's the traders, but asking me for specific titles from a tv show I don't watch is like asking Rhule if he can coach the next game in Chinese. He can't but it doesn't matter.)

Which is to say, not at all.

The point that matters here is not how Appaloosa or Axe Capital is run, but that Tepper may or may not run his sports team in a similar manner.  If you can point to some specific information, perhaps an interview where he says something along the lines of "We ran things this way at Appaloosa and I've decided that model would work well for the Panthers." that would indeed be useful information and a strong argument. But simply pointing at a tv show and using that as the basis for your assertion of how the Panthers are run because the tv show is about a hedge fund and Tepper ran one, that's not a premise I'm going to accept on it's face.

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28 minutes ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

At the risk of repeating myself, I don't see how pointing to the way a fictional hedge fund is run on tv is a very strong argument for the way an NFL franchise that happens to be owned by a hedge fund manager is run in the real world. I haven't watched Billions extensively, at best I've seen a few clips on youtube, but I don't really need to watch a lot of it to know asserting it is predictive of how a rl sports franchise is run is a thin argument at best. 

You may or may not know why writing naked puts is a bad idea, who The Human Pirhana is irl, why Lewis Raneiri could be considered the grandfather of the housing market collapse or what the tax law change that made leveraged buyouts much less profitable and feasible after the 80's was and why Kolberg Kravis and Roberts forced out founder Kolberg.

Whether you do or you don't, these things have about as much bearing on how the Panthers are actually run as how flat Appaloosa is as an organization and who is responsible for generating the returns (inevitably it's the traders, but asking me for specific titles from a tv show I don't watch is like asking Rhule if he can coach the next game in Chinese. He can't but it doesn't matter.)

Which is to say, not at all.

The point that matters here is not how Appaloosa or Axe Capital is run, but that Tepper may or may not run his sports team in a similar manner.  If you can point to some specific information, perhaps an interview where he says something along the lines of "We ran things this way at Appaloosa and I've decided that model would work well for the Panthers." that would indeed be useful information and a strong argument. But simply pointing at a tv show and using that as the basis for your assertion of how the Panthers are run because the tv show is about a hedge fund and Tepper ran one, that's not a premise I'm going to accept on it's face.

"naked puts"...

...LOL. 

PS...how would you describe Mafee's role within the organization?  Dollar Bill?  And Wag's?

 

Edited by SizzleBuzz

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38 minutes ago, top dawg said:

Thanks for the link, much appreciated.

My read of that is the reporter implies "complete autonomy" but that isn't what Rhule actually says.

Bottom line, he doesn't have it and never will

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Nice complements from other NFL execs. 

I wasn't against Rhule at all.  I had my reservations but they quickly went away after the draft and saw he addressed our defense with some real studs.  So if reservations requires me to eat some crow.  Serve it up.  Main thing he's here and doing a great job.

Kelly went into Philly and gutted some quality players because they didn't fit his style. McCoy being the main one.  Outside of Cam, Rhule didn't gut the talent on the team.  He kept the majority of the good players.   His approach to players is outstanding and he definitely gets the most out of the least.   What I really like the most is that he eyes athletic, multi-positional players.  He values speed.  As this roster grows with better talent. We are going to see that the Panthers will be one of the fastest teams in the league.  Watch and See.  As long as Rhule makes sure he gets the players he wants and Hurney doesn't bury us in stupid contracts.  It won't matter too much who the GM is.   I'd rather see Hurney gone and Rhule's man in place. 

I know I might be too optimistic but if Rhule can keep us competitive with this roster.  It's not out of the realm of possibility that we could have a winning record in 2021 and be a surprised wildcard team.  

What I think all of us want to see back to back winning season.  I want us to be talked about in the same sentence as other perennial playoff teams. 

I think this is why the marriage of Tepper and Rhule work so well.  Tepper's former team Pittsburgh was a model of how a team should be year in and year out.  Rhule seems to be Tepper''s Tomlin and you can't argue that's not a good thing. 

 

Edited by DaveThePanther2008
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5 hours ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

At the risk of repeating myself, I don't see how pointing to the way a fictional hedge fund is run on tv is a very strong argument for the way an NFL franchise that happens to be owned by a hedge fund manager is run in the real world. I haven't watched Billions extensively, at best I've seen a few clips on youtube, but I don't really need to watch a lot of it to know asserting it is predictive of how a rl sports franchise is run is a thin argument at best. 

You may or may not know why writing naked puts is a bad idea, who The Human Pirhana is irl, why Lewis Raneiri could be considered the grandfather of the housing market collapse or what the tax law change that made leveraged buyouts much less profitable and feasible after the 80's was and why Kolberg Kravis and Roberts forced out founder Kolberg.

Whether you do or you don't, these things have about as much bearing on how the Panthers are actually run as how flat Appaloosa is as an organization and who is responsible for generating the returns (inevitably it's the traders, but asking me for specific titles from a tv show I don't watch is like asking Rhule if he can coach the next game in Chinese. He can't but it doesn't matter.)

Which is to say, not at all.

The point that matters here is not how Appaloosa or Axe Capital is run, but that Tepper may or may not run his sports team in a similar manner.  If you can point to some specific information, perhaps an interview where he says something along the lines of "We ran things this way at Appaloosa and I've decided that model would work well for the Panthers." that would indeed be useful information and a strong argument. But simply pointing at a tv show and using that as the basis for your assertion of how the Panthers are run because the tv show is about a hedge fund and Tepper ran one, that's not a premise I'm going to accept on it's face.

That poster is just trying to be a jerk to you. Not worth giving them thought out replies at this point. 

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On 11/15/2020 at 2:10 AM, SizzleBuzz said:

"naked puts"...

...LOL. 

PS...how would you describe Mafee's role within the organization?  Dollar Bill?  And Wag's?

 

reading comprehension fail or deliberate trolling. You’re doing one or the other. Either way no longer wasting my time with this convo.

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On 11/14/2020 at 11:21 PM, 1of10Charnatives said:

Yes I'm fully aware of how hedge funds are run, but when I mentioned concrete information I didn't mean pointing to the way a fictional character behaves in a tv show about a hedge fund as evidence of how things are actually functioning in the real world with the management of our sports team....

That ranks right up there with using Madden ratings to evaluate players.

Arguably, it's even worse.

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On 11/16/2020 at 12:02 PM, Mr. Scot said:
On 11/14/2020 at 11:21 PM, 1of10Charnatives said:

Yes I'm fully aware of how hedge funds are run, but when I mentioned concrete information I didn't mean pointing to the way a fictional character behaves in a tv show about a hedge fund as evidence of how things are actually functioning in the real world with the management of our sports team....

That ranks right up there with using Madden ratings to evaluate players.

Arguably, it's even worse.

Funds like Appaloosa (and Axe Capital) are typically quite flat and organized in a simple pod-like structure.  Pods are generally industry-based (financials, tech, industrials, energy, etc.).

These pods of investment professionals are responsible for generating the returns (think wins & losses) that define a fund and determine its success, or lack thereof.  Think of these folks as the football operations side of the business -- the part that generates the wins & losses.

Mature funds also have some HR people, investor relations folks etc, and often a COO-type (Wags) to manage non-trading/investment related aspects of the business.  Think of this part as Tom Glick, the ticket "concierges" some of you have mentioned, the game day operations folks, etc...put another way, not related to on-field football ops.

Virtually all the successful funds also have a founder/owner who is present daily, constantly monitoring just about everything, and acting on behalf of the fund...just like Axe.  Tepper/Appaloosa, Loeb/Third Point, Einhorn/Greenlight, Cohen/SAC, Ganek/Level Global, Balyasny/Balyasny AM,  Englander/Millenium,  etc...are good real-life examples.

These guys are all super-type-A workaholics with massive brainpower and joking aside, always the smartest guy in the room (except when they are all in the same room!) --- and all are control freaks.  (well Izzy is actually pretty laid back, but still a control freak)

Within the pods there are really only 3 job functions --- PM (Mafee & Dollar Bill), analyst (Taylor), and trader.  That's it.

PM's have varying amounts of authorization in terms of how much firm capital they manage (referred to as a "pad") within their pod -- analysts and traders have no discretion/authorization at all, their job is gather, analyze, and share information, and execute when directed to.  (to be fair, on rare occasions some analysts are given a small pad to manage at their discretion just to test them)

While most PM's do have a degree of discretion virtually none will ever make a trade that will materially impact the overall returns/worth of the firm without fully vetting it with and getting buy-in from the founder/owner (Tepper) --- wrong without vetting/buy-in from Tepper, you're dead.  Wrong with the full approval/partnership from Tepper, you can live to fight another day.  PM's do trade around existing positions and make other smaller trades at their own discretion, but these are not material to the firm on the whole.

Again, no significant amount capital at Appaloosa is/was ever put to work without Tepper's explicit approval --- he's overlaid the same operating model onto the Panthers.

Within the Panthers there is only one industry-vertical (football players & coaches) and there are only 2 PM's, and they are co-PM's...Hurney & Rhule.

Hurney & Rhule are free to trade around certain existing positions (fringe players, special teams players, etc) and fiddle with other non-material trades (practice squad, strength coach) but they will never make a material trade (higher draft pick, cut the long-term QB, commit $33M guaranteed to the new QB, big contract to new O.C., etc) without the full participation of and approval from Tepper --- this is the model that made him one of the wealthiest men in the great United States of America and it's one he's sticking with.

The balance of the football operations are people (coaches, scouts, trainers ,etc) under Hurney & Rhule who are functioning as analysts (Brady could be a Junior-PM)...sucking in, synthesizing, and packaging up information for Hurney & Rhule & Tepper to use in the decision making process.  The process is collaborative and some of the analysts have a seat at the table with Tepper/Hurney/Rhule --- but Tepper always retains veto power.  (the Tre Boston contract is troublesome, how that one made it through the vetting process is perplexing...possibly Tepper was on his honeymoon)

As for Tepper himself, he's different, so don't compare him to meddling owners like Jerry Jones.  While he's not particularly good looking Tepper's analytical skills run circles around Theo Epstein and there's also the f*** you money that's a party to the situation, don't underestimate the power of said money :shades:   (keep an eye on the Metropolitans, genius new sheriff in town there too)

From a football operations and wins/losses perspective I believe Tepper is teeing this thing up for a loooooooong stretch of very very successful on-field results...

...just be patient. 

The business/sponsorship side of the operation is more questionable but the reality of it is even if that doesn't go well he has the checkbook to handle it --- time will tell.

 

"I am not uncertain."

             -- "Dollar" Bill Stearn --

 

 

        

Edited by SizzleBuzz

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    I'm sorry...but that right there is how you end a thread.

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On 11/15/2020 at 7:05 AM, Varking said:

That poster is just trying to be a jerk to you. Not worth giving them thought out replies at this point. 

So I provided a detailed response and...

...crickets.  

Nothing?

Edited by SizzleBuzz

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Rhule has been great, combine him with an actual franchise QB and we are good to go

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42 minutes ago, SOJA said:

Rhule has been great, combine him with an actual franchise QB and we are good to go

Who do you recommend?

 

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