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Jeremy Igo

Are we really getting anything out of Derrick Brown?!?!?!

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9 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

but that doesn't mean another safety wouldn't also make the tackle.  Boston is 3rd on the team in tackles, does that mean he is our 3rd best defender.

Don't get me wrong, I like the fact he has the TFL but they don't tell you the entire picture of what he is doing in run defense.

 

You can let go of that bone, pit bull. 

Really buddy, let it go... it'll all be OK.

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21 hours ago, electro's horse said:

i mean look how bad the qb position is

brown is too focused on the defensive side of the ball

a good rookie would help out anywhere. look at chinn on special teams

just saying what we're all thinking

 

21 hours ago, electro's horse said:

well he's not as good as aaron donald

game over man

After all these years Fitz still has his forum fastball, you're a god dam poet!

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On 11/19/2020 at 6:38 PM, Toomers said:

Post them. Show us all these stats you speak of. I’d be more than happy to see the context and discuss them. If we can’t compare him to a player taken before him, and the next DT taken, then post yours. 
 

  Last year this team had 3 DTs that fit this “sacks criteria”. 16 sacks from McCoy, Poe, and Butler. How is it possible to have the worst run defense in 35 years(according to one analytics site)? And with a HOF LB. A very good CB. 
 

    53 sacks and the 2nd worst Defense in the NFL. What’s the D ranked this year? Why the improvement? Whitehead? YGM? The other DTs? Or is it a DT that doesn’t get driven 5 yards back by a single blocker. Wonder what stood out on the 98 yd TD run vs TB? It wasn’t whitehead and Boston that caused that. Watch again

56>17

and do you honestly think Brown is getting doubled more than Donald? 
 

Brown is playing well relative to the other rookies. 
Relative to the rest of the league he really hasn’t played that great so far this season like a lot of people around here think. People around here believe what they want to believe.  Everyone around here wants the rookies to be good so they form an opinion off of that bias. 

Does that mean I think he was a waste of a pick or a bust? No.  I fully expect him to get better, he is improving as the season goes on and I expect him to play really well next year.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

56>17

and do you honestly think Brown is getting doubled more than Donald? 
 

Brown is playing well relative to the other rookies. 
Relative to the rest of the league he really hasn’t played that great so far this season like a lot of people around here think. People around here believe what they want to believe.  Everyone around here wants the rookies to be good so they form an opinion off of that bias. 

Does that mean I think he was a waste of a pick or a bust? No.  I fully expect him to get better, he is improving as the season goes on and I expect him to play really well next year.

 

 

   So he’s not as good as the best DT of the last 40 years? That’s a far cry from 20 guys getting double teamed more AND playing better.(Your exact words)Where are those players? Then another hypothetical with no context. Now a one on one with a legend? ITs getting comical at this point. Where are all these stats that show he hasn’t played that well this season? You keep bringing it up. 

   And some around here throw out unknown stats and hypothetical scenarios to justify their belief that a player was the WRONG pick. Which is exactly what the very few people calling this a bad pick have in common. Their egos can’t handle the FACT they know nothing more than what they read from someone who never wore a helmet either. 

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18 minutes ago, Toomers said:

   So he’s not as good as the best DT of the last 40 years? That’s a far cry from 20 guys getting double teamed more AND playing better.(Your exact words)Where are those players? Then another hypothetical with no context. Now a one on one with a legend? ITs getting comical at this point. Where are all these stats that show he hasn’t played that well this season? You keep bringing it up. 

   And some around here throw out unknown stats and hypothetical scenarios to justify their belief that a player was the WRONG pick. Which is exactly what the very few people calling this a bad pick have in common. Their egos can’t handle the FACT they know nothing more than what they read from someone who never wore a helmet either. 

I didn't say 20 guys were, I said if stats showed you that would you still believe your limited "eye test".  It was a hypothetical question to explain how just watching one player doesn't' give you context.  

And no I don't expect him to be as good as Donald, Aaron might be the best DT of all time.  But if you are just going to list the pressures of the rookies, then try to give it some context by listing the totals of the other guys in the league.  Go get the pressure totals of 2-15 and get back to me.

 

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4 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

I didn't say 20 guys were, I said if stats showed you that would you still believe your limited "eye test".  It was a hypothetical question to explain how just watching one player doesn't' give you context.  

And no I don't expect him to be as good as Donald, Aaron might be the best DT of all time.  But if you are just going to list the pressures of the rookies, then try to give it some context by listing the totals of the other guys in the league.  Go get the pressure totals of 2-15 and get back to me.

 

  And I answered YES that I want to see and happily discuss these stats you were using to make your point. Hypothetical against actual stats. PFF posted those pressure stats(multiple times) Not anyone here. So tell them to compare. Then you dismissed TFL as nothing. What would it take for you to believe he was worth it? 6 sacks like McCoy and Butler. That’s much more valuable than just run stuffing. Right. 

  I posted actual improvements to this team’s DEFENSE. Why not discuss the actual FACTS instead of make believe and comparisons to ONE other legendary player. 

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22 minutes ago, Toomers said:

  And I answered YES that I want to see and happily discuss these stats you were using to make your point. Hypothetical against actual stats. PFF posted those pressure stats(multiple times) Not anyone here. So tell them to compare. Then you dismissed TFL as nothing. What would it take for you to believe he was worth it? 6 sacks like McCoy and Butler. That’s much more valuable than just run stuffing. Right. 

  I posted actual improvements to this team’s DEFENSE. Why not discuss the actual FACTS instead of make believe and comparisons to ONE other legendary player. 

I never dismissed TFL as nothing, I just stated they don’t give five the entire picture of how a player is playing against the run.

Most people who understand football would agree with that. 
Also I never said he wasn’t worth the pick.  My point is he isn’t playing that great relative to the rest of the league.  He is playing good relative to the other rookies.  
People around here are acting like he is playing as well as a top-10 DT which I don’t think he is.

 

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1 hour ago, AU-panther said:

I never dismissed TFL as nothing, I just stated they don’t give five the entire picture of how a player is playing against the run.

Most people who understand football would agree with that. 
Also I never said he wasn’t worth the pick.  My point is he isn’t playing that great relative to the rest of the league.  He is playing good relative to the other rookies.  
People around here are acting like he is playing as well as a top-10 DT which I don’t think he is.

 

    You dismissed anything brought up. You told people their “eye test” wasn’t accurate and needed to be balanced with stats. Then said the stats available weren’t enough. I’m as far from a “stats” person as anyone, but it seems you weren’t going to give credit no matter what was provided. And based it on the basis of hypothetical situations. Most people that can read will agree with that. 
 

    You stated before the draft he wasn’t worth the pick and are using everything you can(real or imagined)  to dispute any perceived success. Is that a signal that you think he IS worth it? Don’t see how? Then chastise everyone for a “rookie”.bias when it’s more that you just don’t want to be wrong.  When someone pays you to breakdown film and coach players......then I’ll listen. Not from people who have to google their opinions

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Fans constantly underrate every player that's not Cam Newton. 

According to them, that’s their job. 

Edited by pantherclaw
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The jump Brian Burns has made is a direct correlation to improved defensive tackle play this year. It’s not the sole reason for Burns improved play but it is a huge factor. 

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On 11/20/2020 at 10:34 PM, Toomers said:

    You dismissed anything brought up. You told people their “eye test” wasn’t accurate and needed to be balanced with stats. Then said the stats available weren’t enough. I’m as far from a “stats” person as anyone, but it seems you weren’t going to give credit no matter what was provided. And based it on the basis of hypothetical situations. Most people that can read will agree with that. 
 

    You stated before the draft he wasn’t worth the pick and are using everything you can(real or imagined)  to dispute any perceived success. Is that a signal that you think he IS worth it? Don’t see how? Then chastise everyone for a “rookie”.bias when it’s more that you just don’t want to be wrong.  When someone pays you to breakdown film and coach players......then I’ll listen. Not from people who have to google their opinions

Yes, a lot of the eye test around here are awful.

Yes, the original stats (TFL) listed in this thread are very specific and don't give you the entire picture.

Sorry about the hypothetical scenario, I was trying to help people understand.  didn't mean to confuse anyone.

"Worth it" is a pretty broad term.  I was worried he might not not turn into a dominating pass rusher, in the regard I wasn't sure if he was going to be "worth it" compared to some of the other choices.  Now that he is on the team, those other choices aren't really an option so I have to judge him based just on just his preperformance.  Any draft pick that turns into a quality starter is "worth it" when you look back and see how many draft picks don't work out.  "Worth it" is relative to the context you are using it, sorry if I confused people again.

I'll admit that my first choice was to move down and draft Henderson, Kinlaw, or one of the OTs, saying put I'm on record saying I would have drafted Simmons, with Brown probably being my second choice.   I said over and over that I thought he might be the safest pick in the draft. 

You claim I won't admit I'm wrong about him being good, but in reality I actually expected him to be better so far.  I thought, outside of Young, he was the safest pick in the draft.  If anything I was wrong about him being good, I expected him to be more dominating, at least in the run game than he has so far.

Also nobody is asking you to listen, you can choose to read the post you want to.

 

 

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On 11/20/2020 at 9:55 PM, AU-panther said:

My point is he isn’t playing that great relative to the rest of the league.  He is playing good relative to the other rookies.  

 

That's the measuring stick for a rookie. If you're expecting a rookie to be on par with future HOFers in the prime of their careers then you're pretty much always going to be disappointed, even if your rookie turns out to be a future HOFer himself.

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Plus, he's an interior DL.  It takes time for those guys to get going.  Look at Cameron Heyward for the Steelers, for example.  Dude didn't really become the All-Pro caliber DL that he is until his 4th or 5th season.  

Patience is virtue.  I've seen enough of Brown this year to know he's going to be a gamer down the road.  Eventually he'll get quicker with his moves at the point of attack and he'll probably get even stronger.  You have to be special as a interior lineman to shine as a rookie (Donald and Suh, for example).  Brown isn't that kind of guy.  But he's still very good.  And he will be great one day.  It just takes time.

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3 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

That's the measuring stick for a rookie. If you're expecting a rookie to be on par with future HOFers in the prime of their careers then you're pretty much always going to be disappointed, even if your rookie turns out to be a future HOFer himself.

Then that is what people should say, but people around here are talking like he is playing great overall which is a false statement.

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3 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

Then that is what people should say, but people around here are talking like he is playing great overall which is a false statement.

All you have to do is understand context.

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