Stingray3030

Thank you for eloquently agreeing with me - when I say this you see how many respond.

Well for one you are cherry picking 2 stats - but which years are you referring to? Career stats? Assuming you mean for their career if you wanna look at stats let's do that. This is Luck vs Cam each time Comp % - 60.8% vs 59.9% - Luck by nearly 1% Int % - 2.5 vs 2.7 - Luck by 10% TD % - 5.2 vs 4.3 - Luck by 20% AY/A - 7.1 vs 6.87 - Luck by 3% Passer Rate - 89.5 vs 85.2 - Luck by 5% Are there other passer stats we should use? If so I can add them. But using these shows the difference between a slightly below average passer, and a slightly above average passer IMO. I would also add that timing matters - Cam can into the league at 60% and 9 years later was still at 60%. Luck came in at 54% and at 67%, 66% over his last 2 full seasons. So I am not even extrapolating here but he was clearly showing consistent elite improvement. The biggest thing that looking at final season stats doesn't show you is variation. Two guys could have the exact same final % yet one ranged from 57-63 while the other ranged from 52-65....which one is better? In my opinion the more consistent one would be considered better. Cam in short stretches was a dominant, accurate passer. In longer stretches he would overthrow simple out routes. Luck was much more consistent and reliable as a passer - and statistically he was significantly better. But to be clear - I would never say Luck was Elite - I think he was trending that way though. Cam was an above average QB but a below average passer. He wasn't reliable in the air for more than 1 game.

Nope - let's see where you are going with this...

Jake was one of those 90's gun slinger QB's - those guys were always fun and frustrating QB's to watch. Then you paired him with Steve Smith and the combo gave us the most electric passing game to watch in the history of the franchise. Smitty elevated the love for Jake - without him I think the gun slinger frustration would have been much higher. Jake's story and who he was just added to that appreciation for me. The biggest difference in him and Cam to me (other than the obvious play style differences) was the expectations walking in the door. Cam was the #1 overall pick. From day 1 he was going to take over the NFL, be the next big thing, and be the best player in the league for a decade.....that was the expectation put on him. Jake came in with no hype, no real pressure, just get Rodney Peete out of here and try not to screw it up. When the game was on the line in 2011-2018 we all said "Cam has to go out there and make some plays and carry us home". When it was 2003-2009 we all said "Smitty has to go out there and make some plays and carry us home".

#2 in the league in starting field position, #1 in drives starting after a turnover.

Trolls be trollin

How do they give trolls Mod on this website?

Quit trying to bait BS - I didn't move any goal posts. Literally the post you quoted is telling the guy not to cherry pick stats. I included every relevant one in my post. And I could care less about Cam personally - I don't like running QB's. They have never won SB's. Pocket passers and mobile QB's are undefeated. The greatest running QB's in the NFL modern era are all losers in the SB. If you can't pass consistently you just don't win it. Ask Lamar, Cam, Vick, Richardson, RGIII how they like their SB rings.....

The best example of Allen >> Cam in passing is this season. The cast around Allen is as close to Cam's 2015 team as Allen has had. Mediocre WR core, TE for Allen is worse than Cam, similar running back quality. Yet Josh Allen's passing stats are significantly better than Cam. Comp %, Int %, Rate, QBR, AY/A - take your pick. The reason Allen is considered for the MVP this year is that even with a depleted offense he is still putting up these kinds of numbers.

I will never understand why people don't get this. Literally my point every single conversation about Cam.

You mean when we were 6-8 in Cam's starts? Where he improved his Comp % but everything else got worse? You are only looking at 1 stat that improved - it still did not result in wins or better overall passing stats for Cam. Cam was 11th or lower in every category with that method - mostly lower than 20th. And trust me I watched just about every single game since the start of the Panthers. The eye test for Cam's passing was much worse than his results for me. I watched game after game where he overthrew open guys multiple times in just about every single game. I don't care what offense it was - he never looked like a consistent, elite passer to me.

Not in the NFL he wasn't - maybe the CFL. 59.8% completion rate - 28th rank 2.0 INT % - 20th rank 99.4 Passer Rate - 7th rank 61.4 QBR - 11th rank 7.1 TD % - 1st rank His passing was not "elite" in any category that year other than TD's - which has more to do with field position & momentum than anything. These stats aren't cherry picked either - everything else is relative to the # of passes he had - if I include them he ranks lower unfairly. There are the best stats to assess passing. Comparing 2 seasons - if a QB throws the same # of passes, for the same amount of yardage, with the same comp % - what makes one season have 22 TDs and one have 35 TDs? The answer is extremely clear - FIELD POSITION. More of the passes were on a shorter field - the QB is the same and playing the same way - his passes just had a higher likelihood of being a TD instead of just yardage. in 2015 the Panthers were #1 in drives ending in a turnover for the defense and #2 for average starting field position. That is the reason for the TD's. Cam was the same mediocre passer every season. He was never an elite passer for a full year - a game here and there sure, but never consistent

This is an easy answer IMO - it's Josh Allen and it isn't close. Prime Cam was still a below average passer every single year. I can guarantee you no one other than a Panther fan would even see this as a conversation.

Not sure I would be so sure they feel worse than us - their QB was better than Bryce at in the first season, they got DJ Moore, and 2 more high caliber draft picks. We had to give up basically our entire defense this season indirectly to make that happen and we still have no true #1 WR. Not saying I would rather have Caleb over Bryce at this point - but I would rather have their team situation and draft picks hands down.

1 specific example that is a completely different situation with no context - I guess my comments about an entire subject has been proven wrong. Welcome to Millennial/Zenial logic, good grief.

1000%

Agree with you mostly - luckily you can structure contracts in a way that they aren't guaranteed so that guys like this can get paid if they perform, and not if they don't. Huge difference between a $100M contract with $30M guaranteed vs $75M. I'd bet we shoot for around $20M with lower guaranteed which is absolutely worth it.

This is the most ridiculous take ever. Which games did he get thrown at? He was 2nd in the NFL at completion % against behind only Stingley. He was top 5 in snap to thrown at. The only games this year where WR's had big days were TB when Horn was out and Dallas when he never covered Lamb. He was a finalist for the All-pro Team. Judge his injury history but saying he isn't that good or had a mediocre season is ridiculous.

Actually there is a reason - Free Agency. We have 8 weeks and this is a huge unknown for how much money we have to spend for the next 3-6 years. If this doesn't get done fairly soon we should be concerned about it happening at all.

Reading this thread is insane - some of y'all are truly disconnected from reality. 25-yr old and one of the top 5 CB's in the league - Pro Bowler. Without the injury history he would demand $23-24M per year from numerous teams no question, bidding war. Spotrac has his Market at $19.6M/yr - that is likely the best we can hope for and is HIS VALUE. "If he will take $13M maybe, but not $19M" - are you insane? NFL players make their money from ages 24-30. That is the prime years for most positions - that is what they cost and are worth. Teams don't win championships by paying their top players on each side of the ball the lowest contracts at the position. There is no way he takes $13M in his prime - no way at all. He is one of the 3 best players on just about any defense in the league. If you wanna win you spend on the top 3 players on each side of the ball outside of rookie deals. What are you saving money for? To spread it over 20 other mediocre role players? Supply and demand people - some of y'all don't understand how this works. The only decision we have is IF we wanna have one of top 3 players on defense be a CB - how much we pay for him is barely negotiable. $19M makes him 12th - gimme a break - by the time the contract ends he would be the 20th paid in his prime. Come on.

Players are always at different stages of development when they get drafted. It was known that McConkey was more NFL ready at the time. But you draft on potential most of the time. The expectation is that Legette needs time but will be better later. Might be another year or 2 before that is true. But how about another perspective - he is much better than Mingo, TMJ, Samuel in their rookie years. So at least we are trending the right way.

True - but I don't think the Giants are in a position to be too picky - especially if Daboll is still there fighting for his job. They don't have any options other than drafting a QB high, so he will go with the consensus best available. I personally don't like Ward's decision making and accuracy. I see him as a late 1st rounder at best. If he was in last year's draft he would have been my 6th or 7th QB.

There are only 4 games left, nearly 0 reasonable FA QB's, and two hugely QB needy teams who have little to no chance of dropping out of the top 4. Sure there is a chance - but it isn't even close to early. Sanders and Ward may both opt out of the Combine - and those workouts aren't gonna make that big of a change - never do. It isn't set but it is highly likely. That said we still won't get a 2nd, a 1st, and a top 15 1st for the 4 spot even if one of those is there. Again you ignore the fact that THEY DROPPED TO 4. The draft value chart will concur that a haul like that is a massive overpay for the 4th pick. Not impossible but about as likely as Bryce coming into camp at 6'2" next year.

Imagine watching your 2nd year QB drive 99 yards trying to put together a game winning drive with multiple scrambles and 3rd down creative plays, only to have his #1 WR drop the potentially game winning TD on a gorgeous throw right on the money to not quite get there on the road against a SB contender. Then waking up and deciding to start a thread about how we are all getting too excited - this is only the 3rd game in a row against 2 Superbowl contenders where this similar scenario played out. Crazy world

If we draft him we get him for 4 years at a massive discount - if he leaves after that to chase $$ so be it. Are we really still pretending ANY of these guys are doing this for the love of the game and their teammates or fans? Guys its a pay day for them - every single one of them - as it would be for you. Ego and immaturity you worry about - chasing money isn't a big deal. If anything it makes them play harder to get it.