Stingray3030

And define "worked" - I like Shaq and all, but he wasn't exactly a great player in the NFL. For a first round pick I would say he underachieved and never really lived up to the hype.

Very interesting take - not sure I have ever heard someone suggest this with a Day 2 prospect. Who knows - it could work. But this guy as an offensive weapon might be special in the NFL. He is not only fast, he is super quick and shifty. He reminds me of Cordarrelle Patterson only much quicker. If he really learns the WR position he could be a nightmare in the slot, wildcat, jet sweeps, KR. I would be very happy to get him in the late 2nd or early 3rd RD.

Especially in a year like this where we have so many later round picks. Much more likely to be a good player than some random defender. Of course we could always draft the best kicker, then cut him and watch him win multiple Superbowls.....again...

I'm sorry but the Panthers do not draft Clemson players - like ever. I am a Clemson grad so no hate just facts lol

Garrett Wilson is pretty much that though - 6'0" and super athletic. He is a top 10ish WR still on a rookie contract for another 2 years potentially. I agree in principle it is not hard to turn down a WR for #8 - but this particular one is what I say is hard. I think you are confused over who I say to turn down - I am speaking of the original thread regarding Garrett Wilson. I do not want Tet Mc at all at #8.

There is no absolute like "you don't draft out of need". You always make a choice based on the situation - sometimes need is more influential, sometimes BPA, sometimes trading. It depends on alot of factors. If you reread my post you see I never said you always draft on need....our situation in the worst defense in the history of the NFL. I think it is insane to say "any rookies we get this year on defense, wont move the needle that much." That is completely untrue. How many examples do you want to prove that? When we drafted Luke in 2012 our defense went from 28th to 10th and he led the league in tackles. I can give you plenty more examples - but very few of them involved guys drafted in the 2nd round. Depth doesn't mean elite depth - this draft has depth at above average talent but not elite talent. If you get to pick #8 and the guys available have similar grades you pick based on need every time, or you trade down for even more value, which is exactly wheat I stated above. Personally I think you see Tet as an elite talent and our options at 8 as less - so in that scenario I don't disagree with what you are saying is the better choice - I just personally don't see Tet as a top 10 talent so we just disagree. From every reliable source I have found Nabors>Harrison>Thomas>Tet. With that I am absolutely not taking him at #8. That grades him just above XL. If Graham, Carter, Johnson are gone I wanna trade down to 12-16, pick up an extra 2nd round pick, and take advantage of that depth you mentioned.

They better score 35pts a game cause our defense gives up 31! Worst points given up in NFL history. I don't know how as a GM you can come out of the first round of the NFL draft following the worst defense in NFL history without taking a defensive player. Day 1 off-season strategy planning meeting - Dan Morgan walks into the room and writes "MOST POINTS GIVEN UP IN NFL HISTORY". First question to the group - how do we fix this? If that isn't the start of the meeting we are in very big trouble. The caveat is always a non-defensive player with "generational talent" or no defensive studs left at 8. But for me the answer is Tet is not a generational talent and if there is no defensive studs when we get to 8 you trade down a few spots. Every analyst I have seen ranks Tet below Nabers, Harrison, Thomas, and Bowers last year - you don't draft that at 8 in our situation. Given our history of scouting WR's if our scouts feel differently than that I ABSOLUTELY know Tet is a bust.

Everyone saying XL and Coker aren't true #1 guys - development is actually a thing in the NFL. Sometimes true #1 WR's come into the league like JJ, Chase, Nabers - and sometimes they come in like Aiyuk, DJ Moore, or Nico. You may not personally feel like our guys have that potential but they certainly showed enough to see the possibilities. Point is we absolutely need a #1 WR and did not have it last year - but he may be on the roster and showed flashes - so WR is absolutely not the top need.

As much as I don't want to use our first 2 picks this year on a WR - this would be tough to decline. I think I would rather keep the pick and use it on defense though.

I stand by that 100% to this day and always will. Nothing I have posted here is any different than that statement. I have spoken to dozens and dozens and dozens of life-long Panther fans who completely agree with that. Cam had a losing record as a starter in 8 of 11 seasons. This is no different than current frustrations people on here have with the current program every year - some blame Bryce and some don't. Why don't you go pull up all of my comments on Bryce and let me know if you still want to try and imply BS? Why are you guys so concerned with whether or not I like Cam? Seriously what is your obsession? My evaluation of him has nothing to do with emotion - my comments are objective every single time. Maybe you can't compartmentalize like that but I can - and I do when I evaluate my opinions. That bolded statement shows the combination of my subjective view and my objective evaluation perfectly. And I gave you the stats to back it up.

A great example to me is Lamar Jackson now. His first 5 seasons his passing skills were similar to Cam and not seeing a great deal of development (mainly missing games the last 2 years). His running carried him more often than passing - and typically limited his team's success. But the last 2 years after he finally got healthy again you can see his passing has finally developed, and he has worked alot of those mechanical bugs out. In terms of passing he still isn't an elite passer - but he is well above average which is why he is a repeat Pro Bowler and MVP candidate. He is the clear MVP IMO this year.

Thank you for eloquently agreeing with me - when I say this you see how many respond.

Well for one you are cherry picking 2 stats - but which years are you referring to? Career stats? Assuming you mean for their career if you wanna look at stats let's do that. This is Luck vs Cam each time Comp % - 60.8% vs 59.9% - Luck by nearly 1% Int % - 2.5 vs 2.7 - Luck by 10% TD % - 5.2 vs 4.3 - Luck by 20% AY/A - 7.1 vs 6.87 - Luck by 3% Passer Rate - 89.5 vs 85.2 - Luck by 5% Are there other passer stats we should use? If so I can add them. But using these shows the difference between a slightly below average passer, and a slightly above average passer IMO. I would also add that timing matters - Cam can into the league at 60% and 9 years later was still at 60%. Luck came in at 54% and at 67%, 66% over his last 2 full seasons. So I am not even extrapolating here but he was clearly showing consistent elite improvement. The biggest thing that looking at final season stats doesn't show you is variation. Two guys could have the exact same final % yet one ranged from 57-63 while the other ranged from 52-65....which one is better? In my opinion the more consistent one would be considered better. Cam in short stretches was a dominant, accurate passer. In longer stretches he would overthrow simple out routes. Luck was much more consistent and reliable as a passer - and statistically he was significantly better. But to be clear - I would never say Luck was Elite - I think he was trending that way though. Cam was an above average QB but a below average passer. He wasn't reliable in the air for more than 1 game.

Nope - let's see where you are going with this...

Jake was one of those 90's gun slinger QB's - those guys were always fun and frustrating QB's to watch. Then you paired him with Steve Smith and the combo gave us the most electric passing game to watch in the history of the franchise. Smitty elevated the love for Jake - without him I think the gun slinger frustration would have been much higher. Jake's story and who he was just added to that appreciation for me. The biggest difference in him and Cam to me (other than the obvious play style differences) was the expectations walking in the door. Cam was the #1 overall pick. From day 1 he was going to take over the NFL, be the next big thing, and be the best player in the league for a decade.....that was the expectation put on him. Jake came in with no hype, no real pressure, just get Rodney Peete out of here and try not to screw it up. When the game was on the line in 2011-2018 we all said "Cam has to go out there and make some plays and carry us home". When it was 2003-2009 we all said "Smitty has to go out there and make some plays and carry us home".

#2 in the league in starting field position, #1 in drives starting after a turnover.

Trolls be trollin

How do they give trolls Mod on this website?

Quit trying to bait BS - I didn't move any goal posts. Literally the post you quoted is telling the guy not to cherry pick stats. I included every relevant one in my post. And I could care less about Cam personally - I don't like running QB's. They have never won SB's. Pocket passers and mobile QB's are undefeated. The greatest running QB's in the NFL modern era are all losers in the SB. If you can't pass consistently you just don't win it. Ask Lamar, Cam, Vick, Richardson, RGIII how they like their SB rings.....

The best example of Allen >> Cam in passing is this season. The cast around Allen is as close to Cam's 2015 team as Allen has had. Mediocre WR core, TE for Allen is worse than Cam, similar running back quality. Yet Josh Allen's passing stats are significantly better than Cam. Comp %, Int %, Rate, QBR, AY/A - take your pick. The reason Allen is considered for the MVP this year is that even with a depleted offense he is still putting up these kinds of numbers.

I will never understand why people don't get this. Literally my point every single conversation about Cam.

You mean when we were 6-8 in Cam's starts? Where he improved his Comp % but everything else got worse? You are only looking at 1 stat that improved - it still did not result in wins or better overall passing stats for Cam. Cam was 11th or lower in every category with that method - mostly lower than 20th. And trust me I watched just about every single game since the start of the Panthers. The eye test for Cam's passing was much worse than his results for me. I watched game after game where he overthrew open guys multiple times in just about every single game. I don't care what offense it was - he never looked like a consistent, elite passer to me.

Not in the NFL he wasn't - maybe the CFL. 59.8% completion rate - 28th rank 2.0 INT % - 20th rank 99.4 Passer Rate - 7th rank 61.4 QBR - 11th rank 7.1 TD % - 1st rank His passing was not "elite" in any category that year other than TD's - which has more to do with field position & momentum than anything. These stats aren't cherry picked either - everything else is relative to the # of passes he had - if I include them he ranks lower unfairly. There are the best stats to assess passing. Comparing 2 seasons - if a QB throws the same # of passes, for the same amount of yardage, with the same comp % - what makes one season have 22 TDs and one have 35 TDs? The answer is extremely clear - FIELD POSITION. More of the passes were on a shorter field - the QB is the same and playing the same way - his passes just had a higher likelihood of being a TD instead of just yardage. in 2015 the Panthers were #1 in drives ending in a turnover for the defense and #2 for average starting field position. That is the reason for the TD's. Cam was the same mediocre passer every season. He was never an elite passer for a full year - a game here and there sure, but never consistent

This is an easy answer IMO - it's Josh Allen and it isn't close. Prime Cam was still a below average passer every single year. I can guarantee you no one other than a Panther fan would even see this as a conversation.

Not sure I would be so sure they feel worse than us - their QB was better than Bryce at in the first season, they got DJ Moore, and 2 more high caliber draft picks. We had to give up basically our entire defense this season indirectly to make that happen and we still have no true #1 WR. Not saying I would rather have Caleb over Bryce at this point - but I would rather have their team situation and draft picks hands down.