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We have had a lot of practice at it.

Yeah that’s true. Pendulum at work. It will go back to the aerial fireworks at some point.

I don’t watch much college ball to scout draft picks. I didn’t know how right the guy was, but I did know that defense wasn’t going to give us proper value at 8. So I didn’t argue with it, but I didn’t know either.

Yeah. I always thought that ‘Brett Favre had 7 GWD in his MVP season’ or whatever, meant what you are saying. But it apparently never meant that.

Good way to frame it. Like I said somewhere, I approached it as a cheap way to pimp Bryce when I learned that the Giants win last year fit the criteria. Then I started looking at it and it is just, it has problems.

It is definitely imperfect. The spirit of it we instinctively know, but then the legalese around the gate keeping just mucks it up. And it doesn’t represent that ideal any more.

I think if you have the lead going to the 4th and then lose the lead in tne 4th, and then come back, is how that would work. You have to be down in the 4th at some point.

It is fair, but it doesn’t tell us a lot. When one guy could hand off, and the other guy smoke a 2 minute drill, they get the same achievement. I hope for better.

Right, nothing requiring it be the last possession. I went for the longest time thinking it was one thing but it isn’t.

I thought that too but no. And that is what got me started looking more closely at it Give this a look, it is from Pro Football Reference.com. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/about/comebacks.htm ——— A Game-Winning Drive (GWD) must involve these: team must win game team must, at some point, have possession of the ball tied or down by one score (1-8 points) in 4th quarter or OT the offensive scoring drive must conclude in the 4th quarter or OT. It can begin in the 3rd quarter so long as scrimmage plays that are part of the drive are run in the 4th quarter. This means you can't kick a FG on 1st play of 4th quarter to take lead and have it count as GWD. the scoring play to put the winning points on the board must be the result of an offensive drive ——- That page also has 4th qtr comeback which is different I haven’t looked at that yet.

Like I was saying somewhere, it can be unfair to him as well. He did a legit GWD, that they tied it back up after. And then did the actual one, in OT. He could have a drive like that, and some other QB handed the ball off a couple of times, and gets the same stat. Whatever side you view it from, it is inequitable.

And has been since he followed his best performance in 2023 vs the Packers with being shut out twice to finish the year. That IS the hurdle that has yet to be cleared.

It’s a process yo.

Yeah. It would be a smaller category. My beef it that it is not exclusive enough and isn’t equitable within its own qualifiers. 4 minute offense. 2 minute. However you frame it, those sorts of circumstances are tougher and it is a more impressive accomplishment. And we should have a way to designate them as such. On the other end of the spectrum, I think technically a QB could come in after a turnover and the ball at say, the opponents 40 YL. 1:50 left in the THIRD qtr, run a couple of handoffs and you are in FG range. And the 3rd qtr clock expires, now you are in the 4th qtr. maybe you take a shot down the sideline, incomplete. Kicker comes on, makes the kick. The score holds up through the end of the game and you win. That gets you a GWD. I just find it worthless.

The topic of GWD started about Bryce but for me, when I realized what it really was, it isn’t about Bryce any more it is about a bad use of statistics. You can flip it and say okey we know that x y and z games he took the team down and got the score with time running out. Another QB handed it off, early in the 4th quarter and got the same little gold star as Bryce did for what he did Sunday. It doesn’t have to be about discrediting Bryce. It could be about accurately crediting a player for what he did. I don’t see that it is doing that.

100%. Stats are just trying to communicate stuff to you that happened, and if you had seen it you probably wouldn’t need the stats so much. They are cool for record keeping like we know that 448 was a team record. I said that in an earlier post, like if I watched Bryce play Sunday and the previous Sunday, I don’t need stats to tell me he was great in one game and horrible in the other.

That is my argument on this. It is so broadly defined that it doesn’t tell you who the dawgs are and who got a participation trophy for moving the ball 7 yards into FG range by handing it off to your RB. Okay the real dawgs get credit for that handing off too, so it is fair. Do I want to use that to measure the value of my QB”s play? To get there you have to dig deeper the stat as it is defined just isn’t a good tool IMO Like getting garbage time stats and they count the same as those 448 yards Bryce earned in a tightly contested game the other day. They shouldn’t. I don’t have anything worked out that would redefine and improve the usefulness of the GWD but maybe there should be a stat for the 2 minute drill stuff, the 4 minute drill, where the QB really was challenged and responded.

Yes they are. Everyone gets awarded the GWD based on the same standards. The qualifiers My beef is it just isn’t a good stat because the qualifiers are all over the place. You can get a GWD for essentially going three and out and the bringing on the kicker, at 11:58 in the 4th quarter. And it counts the same as you got the ball on your 25 with 2:18 left in the game and one timeout and orchestrated a perfect two minute drill ending in a TD or a kick as the clock ticked off the last seconds. Those are just not the same. They shouldn’t count the same. IMO. And the only way to know that a guy’s GWD was the classic 2 minute drill for a last second kick, or if he came in after a turnover and handed it off a couple of times and the kicker came on with 12 minutes to go, and made the final margin, is to look at the drive charts.

The GWD stat, as I see it, was being spun to pimp Bryce. He does have some ability in the clutch. But that is a poo stat. I don’t like stats much anyway. They can illustrate a point you try to make about a player or team or game, yes. I will put it this way though: do you need stats to tel you how Bryce played on Sunday? Or the Sunday before? In the words of the great Johnny Guitar Watson, I don’t think so.

It was my first Panthers MB experience. I don’t remember my user name. probably my email address I didn’t know much at all about the internet.

I wonder if they expanded the qualifiers at some point. Like in the participation trophy generation. Ir just wonder about the history of it. Because we had game winning drives before there was a GWD stat. I feel like it used to mean something different. Like a deep ball nowadays vs 30 years ago.

There was a Charlotte.com board where a lot of people that came here used to be on. They shut it down but I remember a couple of users here that were there first.

Not altogether wrong but that no way would have happened in 2003. Later after he got paid and was in decline due probably to the arm trouble. Jake came In like gangbusters. There was no okay he was great in college he has no help blah blah like we heard for nearly two years. you might walk that back a little.

Yes he does.

Yeah. Exactly. And I am not teyi g to use it against him because it is the same for everyone. I did get interested in it because of him and found that I not been thinking about it realistically. Bet I wasn’t alone It isn’t some exclusive stat for the real bad asses like I had always thought. We ask you know, who would you want with the ball in their hands and 2 minutes to go 90 yards? As a measure of greatness. That is what I thought it was. But it isn’t that. Yet it can be that. But a handoff or two counts just the same. Misleading. IMO.