Some constructive criticism on Cam Newton's performance. Please don't shoot.

[PantherFanForLife]

:confused::confused:

nevermind...not interested. you're spending way too much time and energy on one stupid play. too much talk about what should have been.

hitting the repeat button here.

if the play called for newton to get it to goodson who should have been in position to get the first down (and that's on goodson not newton) unless he wasn't available and then take option b followed by option c...then thats what he's supposed to do. it doesn't matter at that moment where anyone else is. if goodson was in a position that he could make the catch, newton was supposed to throw it to him. thats the way it works.

thats all i've said. really nothing more to say.

/my part in this discussion that is going nowhere because the one driving it is too caught up in trying to prove some meaningless point.

Well if we assume the play was called for Newton to get it to Goodson, and only Goodson, and if we assume that Goodson was supposed to be in a different position than where he was when the ball was thrown to him, and if we overlook the fact Cam gave away his intended target by looking right at him while passing on other open targets in a better position to get a first down or TD then......yeah....it's meaningless.

And, just so I'm clear, if we assume that that wasn't the case, and that Cam did have other better options, if he would have looked, and that the play was drawn up to give him multiple targets in position to get the first down or TD then it was just a bad play call on 4th and goal on the OC's part?

Did I get it right?

:rolleyes:

PS: I actually honestly feel like I've learned a lot in this discussion. No joke. Made me wanna take a closer look at dissecting our team's offense and plays. This is probably what defensive coordinators do when watching tape. And I actually came away quite impressed with our receivers' route running. They have it down pat on that play if you ask me.

[edromeo]

.....I would not have thrown the fade to Smitty because throwing a fade on 4th down with the game on the line to me is just ridiculous. Too much of a risky play.

Not a fade:

But, like I said already I think the best choice would have been Smith 1-on-1 w/ Peterson on a back shoulder fadestop:

[edromeo]

Smith was covered pretty well actually.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Peterson has inside leverage and is playing over Smith.

This is perfect coverage for Smith to catch a fade stop, especially a backshoulder.

BTW-You think I don't understand the way you view Naanee in relation to the defenders.

But its not that I don't understand I don't agree.

If Cam throws to Naanee 25, 31 and Peterson would all close to make the tackle, therefore I don't think Naanee has a better chance of getting in as Goodson and therefore I agree with Cam's decision not to throw to him.

As far as Lafell goes, and changing his pre-snap progression, that's exactly what he should have done regardless. I think that WAS part of the design.

Huh?

I don't think 'should have' plays into the equation at all.

Cam has a choice of which side of the field he chooses to work first.

And pure speculation judging by the lack of explosion of the line from the backside receivers they new in the huddle that the primary was on the frontside of the play.

But Cam is getting blitzed and during a blitz a QB isn't gonna make a full field progression read from frontside (playside) to backside because there simply isn't enough time.

Which ever side of the field Cam chose to work was likely the only viable side of the play to throw.

Cam chose to start from the the side of the play with more options.

I'm not gonna fault him for that its his choice, I doubt Shula/Chudz would either.

It's simple logic.

And everything I'm saying is simple football logic.

Even if the play was intended to go to Goodsen, it would have never been designed for Cam to stare him down and never look anywhere else. It would have been designed for Cam to look right, look left, fake(or something to this effect), and then just dump it back to the right to Goodsen when he gets in position, since he was the last one to get open.

This is where I believe you're wrong friend.

First I don't think Goodson was the primary read.

Like I said before I think the progression on the frontside of this play went Hi-Lo from Olsen to Naanee to Goodson.

Also there are many plays that are designed for the QB to only read one side of the field without looking backside.(therefore there would be no look left, look right)

Those types of reads are called "half-field" reads which often use Hi-Lo concepts and/or play action.

Therefore I think you believe in error that Cam 'stared' down where as I believe Cam was following his Hi-Lo progression from deep to shallow.

If the play was designed for Goodson, then they had to build a fake/sell into it, because they knew from the get go Goodson would be the last guy to get to his position and there was time that needed to be killed.

If we share the same idea of a 'sell' then I agree.

Like I said earlier I think Goodson would have been wide open if he stemmed outside into the flat by 1 step before he breaks back inside.

This is often how Texas routes are taught.

I don't care how you look at it or from whatever angle you choose to view it from, there were better options on that play.

I could say the same thing about your view but I wouldn't make for much of a discussion would it?: I don't care how you look at it or from whatever angle you choose to view it from, because Cam made a sound decision.

And there's no way I believe our OC decided to run a play in 4th and Goal on the last possession of the game that only gave our QB one viable target, who happened to be the last one to get open and NO possible alternatives if he fails to get open. By the time Goodson got open everyone else was basically at the end of their routes, including Smith.

...Um....neither do I.

And I've clearly stated how I view the progression several times.

It was a play with multiple open targets. Cam just didn't look for them. And that's the end of the story.

Yes, there were multiple targets.

Now let me try my hand at posting like you:.

No, Cam did look at the options Olsen-Naanee then made a sound decision and a good throw that gave his receiver a chance to make the play.

And that is the end of the story.

Except you don't agree with the decision.

[edromeo]

I can see you guys will just not accept any kind of criticism against Cam,

I'm about as impartial as they come:

http://www.carolinahuddle.com/forum/carolina-panthers/66466-a-closer-look-at-cam-vs-dolphins.html

PS: I actually honestly feel like I've learned a lot in this discussion. No joke. Made me wanna take a closer look at dissecting our team's offense and plays. This is probably what defensive coordinators do when watching tape. And I actually came away quite impressed with our receivers' route running. They have it down pat on that play if you ask me.

I'm a coach (basketball and football) and love talking Xs and Os.

For the most part this has been a good discussion.

These are the types of conversation I would be having if I was coaching this year.

Well except this conversation would have been a tad bit more open minded and would probably have lasted less then 5 minutes.

Can I make a suggestion without it being taken the wrong way?

To have a good football discussion you have to be willing to accept that not everyone will see it the same way and you also have to accept that other people may know at least as much as you do.

Cheers-

I hope the ground game can get going against the Pack.

Ball control will be the best weapon against that offense.

It will also be very important to stay out of 3rd and 6+ and not get down multiple scores early.

The best way to solve exotic zone-blitz schemes is not to face them.

[PantherFanForLife]

You know I'm reading your replies, but I swear to God, I honestly do not think you are reading what you are responding to. Either that or you don't understand. And I'm not being a smart ass, I'm being serious, because some of your rebuttals don't actually respond to what I'm saying.

Like this:

Huh?

I don't think 'should have' plays into the equation at all.

Cam has a choice of which side of the field he chooses to work first.

I have no idea what that is actually responding to, because what I was stating was, IF Goodson was the pre-snap decision, designed by the play, then Cam would have been expected to sell/fake in order to burn time for Goodson to get in position and not give away his intended target. In other words...don't stare him down from the point the ball snaps until you actually throw if that's the guy you were supposed to throw to the entire time. I was responding to the argument made earlier that Goodson was the pre-snap decision.

Your other comments just don't edge on reality:

Like I said earlier I think Goodson would have been wide open if he stemmed outside into the flat by 1 step before he breaks back inside.

Goodson was never wide open, and would have at no point whatsoever been wide open no matter what he did, because Lennon was on him like white on rice, from the moment the ball snapped until he caught the ball, thanks to Cam never taking his eyes off of him.

Or this:

Yes, there were multiple targets.

Now let me try my hand at posting like you:.

No, Cam did look at the options Olsen-Naanee then made a sound decision and a good throw that gave his receiver a chance to make the play.

Except you don't agree with the decision.

It's not that I don't agree, it's that it's not REAL. It didn't happen. You can clearly see watching that video Cam stared at Goodson and the intended passing target the entire time. He never looked left for Naanee, he never looked up and down the middle for Olson. Those things, just simply never happened.

BTW-You think I don't understand the way you view Naanee in relation to the defenders.

But its not that I don't understand I don't agree.

If Cam throws to Naanee 25, 31 and Peterson would all close to make the tackle, therefore I don't think Naanee has a better chance of getting in as Goodson and therefore I agree with Cam's decision not to throw to him.

And this argument has shown me repeatedly that you do not understand. For the nth time, one guy is standing still at that point, and is 5 yards away from his target, and yes I'm exaggerating for simplicity's sake, while his target is moving full sprint.

What's he going to do? Make an instantaneous 10 yard step, stretch his arm like Stretch Armstrong? He'd have to get up to speed, chase, run faster than Naanee, and catch Naanee before Naanee crosses the 1 yard line. Unless number 25 is a freak and runs a 1.90, I just don't see that happening the way Naanee was running his route in full stride.

So why do you insist on saying they were "closing in" on him? Because you saw this after the play died? If anything Naanee would have probably continued to pull away from him had he continued running.

The only way he catches him is if Naanee turns straight up field, which would have been unlikely, it would have meant breaking his route, and stupid. If Naanee gets that ball he would have most likely continued running a diagonal route like I showed in the pics towards the corner for the 1st or TD. He only goes up field if he feels he can bulldoze over his defender, juke them or stiff arm them. Running the slant route makes him untouchable by #25. Number 31 has to get by his man, Lafell, to get to Naanee.

If Naanee gets that ball he's home free. Naanee had to beat one guy, #31, who was locked in with Lafell, also without momentum and would have had help from Lafell. Goodson, was moving slower, was further back, and had to beat 3 defenders to get the 1st down, while already being wrapped up at the point of catch.

So how in the world is Goodson in a better position to get us the down?

[edromeo]

You know I'm reading your replies, but I swear to God, I honestly do not think you are reading what you are responding to. Either that or you don't understand. And I'm not being a smart ass, I'm being serious, because some of your rebuttals don't actually respond to what I'm saying.

Funny I get that same feeling.

Like this:

I have no idea what that is actually responding to, because what I was stating was, IF Goodson was the pre-snap decision, designed by the play, then Cam would have been expected to sell/fake in order to burn time for Goodson to get in position and not give away his intended target. In other words...don't stare him down from the point the ball snaps until you actually throw if that's the guy you were supposed to throw to the entire time. I was responding to the argument made earlier that Goodson was the pre-snap decision.

But I've stated over and over again that I do not agree with you that Goodson was the pre-snap decision.

Cam doesn't have to sell or fake anything because he's not burning time he's going through his progression.

Again Cam is only 'staring' Goodson down in your head because you believe Cam is simply 'burning' time waiting for Goodson to get open.

Your other comments just don't edge on reality:

Goodson was never wide open, and would have at no point whatsoever been wide open no matter what he did, because Lennon was on him like white on rice, from the moment the ball snapped until he caught the ball, thanks to Cam never taking his eyes off of him.

Hello? When did I say Goodson was wide open?

I said Goodson could have been wide open if he stemmed 1 step towards the flat.

At first I just thought you didn't know what stemmed meant.

No I am certain.

But just for the sake of argument do you know what it means to stem a route?

Do you know what a Texas route is?

Or this:

It's not that I don't agree, it's that it's not REAL. It didn't happen. You can clearly see watching that video Cam stared at Goodson and the intended passing target the entire time. He never looked left for Naanee, he never looked up and down the middle for Olson. Those things, just simply never happened.

BS.

YOU think Cam is looking at Goodson.

But all you see is Cam's helmet facing that direction you don't see where Cam's eyes are.

And ALL of Cam's options are start on the right side of the field, which is where Cam is looking.

THAT IS HOW A HI-LO PROGRESSION WORKS.

He doesn't need to look left for Naanee because Naanee starts his route from the RIGHT.

And this argument has shown me repeatedly that you do not understand. For the nth time, one guy is standing still at that point, and is 5 yards away from his target, and yes I'm exaggerating for simplicity's sake, while his target is moving full sprint.

LoL, because I don't agree I don't understand.

What's he going to do? Make an instantaneous 10 yard step, stretch his arm like Stretch Armstrong? He'd have to get up to speed, chase, run faster than Naanee, and catch Naanee before Naanee crosses the 1 yard line. Unless number 25 is a freak and runs a 1.90, I just don't see that happening the way Naanee was running his route in full stride.

25, 31 and Peterson would close on Naanee as soon as Cam throws it to him, you can bank on that; its a certainty.

That's all there waiting to do is close on whomever gets the ball.

So why do you insist on saying they were "closing in" on him? Because you saw this after the play died? If anything Naanee would have probably continued to pull away from him had he continued running.

Because that's what they're waiting for.

You think all three DBs are gonna stand there and watch Naanee?

If Naanee gets that ball he would have most likely continued running a diagonal route like I showed in the pics towards the corner for the 1st or TD.

You fail to account for Peterson-31 and 25 on the chase.

So that make 2 DBs ahead of him and 1 behind him.

You seem to think the more you explain it will somehow change anything.

I understand full well what's happening on that play and if you don't think those DB would make a play to stop Naanee then I not gonna try to convince you. But, unlike you I'm not gonna assume that you're wrong because you disagree. That's not how reasonable men discuss/grade a play.

[frash.exe]

Not taking anything away from his amazing performance, but I also think we shouldn't forget he's a rookie who has a lot to learn. They're going to talk about it in the film room so we might as well talk about it too. His tendency to throw to his first read and not look for second options does seem to be there at times, and I noticed it again while voting for rookie of the week on the last play of the game. It's at minute 2:30 of the Cam's Newton full highlight video.

http://www.nfl.com/voting/rookies

Had he just been a bit more aware, #17 Legedu Naanee was open for an easy TD and was 2 steps ahead of the same receiver he passed to, but with no one on him, almost the entire route. Before you tell me he was getting blitzed and had to release the ball quickly, notice that Naanee was actually open prior to Goodson, so he could have released it even quicker.

Now I personally don't believe this is a "QB issue", or a permanent flaw, but rather something that just needs to be learned and takes care of itself as he gains more experience. But I do believe this IS something they will be working on as the season unfolds and could affect his game.

One of two things will happen. He could smoothly transition to becoming more patient and adjusting his game to check his #2, #3, etc receivers without disrupting his game too much. But one also has to take into consideration that one of his strongest points in the game against Arizona and as a QB, his ability to quickly release the ball, is probably based a lot on him going to that first read. Considering our O-line isn't very giving, and him needing more time in order to start reading the field, I can see some growing pains in this area as he begins to branch out.

I believe the only way he won't have issues here, is if the O-line improves at the same time as him learning to do this. It will go hand in hand. And this isn't an "IF" situation. He will be learning how to read his other options, and it will be this season, since if he continues to play like that for 16 games it will only be a matter of time before opponent's D's will capitalize on this.

Am I being too picky or do you think this is a valid concern?

Even so, Goodson looked like a harder, more covered and slower target to hit than #17. Naanee was already full sprint, and lost his man, before Goodson could get open. If he hit 17 that would have been a TD.

And yes I know even vets miss miss open receivers, but the only reason this bothered me is because they were both 3 feet away from each other, right in front of him, and his vision was not obstructed. One was open and one was not. That's what makes me believe he had already decided to go with Goodson, no matter what, prior to the snap.

Then it is a valid concern cause that's what it looked like to me too. That's gonna happen though, meaning a receiver not doing what he's supposed to do, and when it does, you as a QB need to go to other options. Things like this happen on just about every down.

Again, I didn't think this happened consistently throughout the game, just at times. It just looked obvious on that play and it sucked that it happened on that crucial down. Maybe it was the pressure at the end there which made him have tunnel vision only for Goodson.

And Mr. Scot, I understand that and I re-iterate: the biggest issue here, is that they were both directly in his line of sight, with Naanee actually being open before Goodson while crossing over Goodson's route. Did you watch the video? He clearly didn't have enough time to check all his reads, and that's not what I'm saying he should have done here. I agree with you there. But you had an open guy, in man to man coverage, crossing directly front of your throwing lane and across the route of your "go to" guy. This was more of a matter of seeing what's already right in front of you and just mentally picking A or B. No head movement required in this case.

Hey this could be a good thing for him. Seeing that on film will no doubt make him pay attention next time.

.

I realize that and again I'm not taking anything away from him. After his performance though, rookie or not, he's raised the bar on himself and if for no other reason, it's still good to point out things like this to remind everyone of the fact he is a rookie and areas that needs improvement.

Phoenaxe, I was thinking that too. I know Naanee had one reception for 21 yards, but I didn't see him as involved as the others.

And maybe you're right in that those were the orders and he was forced to do that. I just always believed that when you have better options you take them, regardless of how the play was initially designed. Should also note #88 had broken away too by the time Goodson was open. In fact Goodson was probably the least open out of all of them. It was the riskiest choice at that point if you ask me.

Yes I did. I mentioned that initially. And quite the contrary. It was actually waiting for Goodson to run his route and get open that endangered him from #56. Again, Naanee was open prior to Goodson getting open. So was #88 in the endzone. He could have gotten that ball out even earlier.

Come on y'all. It was what it was guys. Razor's probably correct in saying he stuck with the design of the play. And that was my point. I don't agree he should have cause he had safer, better targets, earlier. I love the guy too, but I have to call it if I see it. That's just something he needs to work on.

And I agree that Goodson probably screwed his route too. He seemed way too slow getting up there, but again, that's when you gotta make that decision. It seemed as the play was already over by the time Goodson finally got in position.

Antrel would have not caught him as he was already in stride and even if he did I think Nannee had the better momentum to at least go for the first down. You can see Naanee slowed down his route and turned around after he saw Newton went for Goodson which is why it looks as if Antrel would have caught him. But the window to get that ball to Naanee was open prior to Antrel even realizing Naanee was left uncovered. Goodson, oth, was covered the entire time. He was covered, before he had the pass thrown to him.

Naanee was basically in the exact spot Goodson caught the ball a full second before Goodson got there, without a man on him.

PS: If you want me to get really technical it is exactly at 2:46 if you pause the video and Newton was staring right at him. At 2:47, Goodson is in that same spot, but covered. Now that I look at it, Naanee was just a bullet I think. I like this kid's acceleration. Damn. We need to get him out there more often.

Sigh....you guys are making me work now. He was open prior to that.

Wide....freaking open. Plenty of room. And Cam was looking right at him.

Here's a better one a bit earlier.

Lennon can't touch Naanee as he's moving in the opposite direction and Nanee is already full sprint at this point before Antrel even starts honing in on him. Lennon's actually going for Goodson whom he took down.

All Cam had to do right here is throw it down the middle just to the left of the ref, so Naanee catches it in stride. He had an open hole and straight throwing lane.

LOL. Probably.

The plan was that #93 was going to use the eye in the back of his head, and stretch out his leg behind him to trip Naanee...so I guess it would have still been moot ;)

Errr.....wow. Yeah it doesn't matter if they're close, if the defender's momentum is going the opposite direction, and the receiver is out of grabbing distance, he's burnt.

I'm pretty sure both WR's and QB's are trained to look for that.

Like here. At that point, Lennon's screwed. Not a damn thing he can do to touch Naanee. But he wasn't going for him anyway.

..

[frash.exe]

I did, but I don't see the point of comparing Cam to that scrub ;) I have higher expectations.

Our offense and Cam played on a whole different level than the Broncos and Orton. They actually reminded me very much of us when Fox was coaching and Delhomme, Jimmy and Moore were playing QB.

I don't see the correlation. I'm not mad at Cam, though of course I think we could have and probably should have won that game. But I'm really pleased with his overall performance.

I highly doubt there is such a passing play in an NFL playbook that is scripted to "not go to anyone else". Maybe some freak trick play, and that wasn't one of them, but any play designed is going to have other options, especially one on 4th and Goal on the last play of the game.

I don't buy that one.

Err... the spot where you see Naanee in that picture is basically the same exact spot where Goodson grabs the pass. Nanee wasn't at the 10. He was at the 5 at that point. Check again. If Nanee wasn't going to get it with that much speed and no one around him, Goodson sure as heck wasn't either with a guy wrapping his arms around him while he's trying to catch the ball.

Also, no one else was on Naanee. The other guy(who was actually Nanee's defender) ended up trying to cover #88 and is to the left of the screen. He was also beat and #88 had the inside route on him and was open for a TD in the endzone. 88 was the third option and you can see him waving his hands in the endzone. The other defender is all the way to the right and has nothing to do with Naanee. He was busy covering Smith in the far corner.

Ok once agian, I understand there was a go to guy for this play, but it's silly to say it was the only viable option, and he had to go to him, when it's pretty obvious it wasn't.

Yes you can see the entire point of the play is to have an open guy in that 5 yard line spot that could at least punch through and get the first down. What is also clearly obvious is that there was already such a guy there prior to the go to guy getting to that spot, as well as another option over the top, that had become better choices as the play unfolded.

The opportunity the play was designed to create was there....twice, in the same exact spot.

Just watch the video. The guy covering Naanee took the bait and went towards the corner of the endzone, leaving Naanee open. When that happened the guy covering 88 changed his route and started going for Naanee, leaving 88 open. The guy initially covering Naanee had to come back from the corner to cover 88. The whole time he was coming back, 88 had the inside route on him, both feet inside the endzone.

All of this prior to the pass to Goodson.

Goodson was open, or barely, yes I give you that. But it makes no sense to pass on two already open guys to wait for Goodson to get open and wait for pressure to pile up on you. You take the first guy to get open that you see in that situation.

You don't pass on that and wait for your go to guy to hopefully get open.

Uhm, ok. :iagree:

But he didn't. And that's precisely my point. The play didn't develop as it was intended. Naanee's defender went far into the endzone instead of following Naanee across, which left Naanee open and left to be covered by Andrel. And when that happened it left 88 open.

So I'm just going to say this and leave it at that. Between Naane, #88 and Goodson, no other defender had a better coverage on their man than Lennon did on Goodson. Lennon had his eye on Goodson from the get go and went straight for him, while the other two guys had to swap targets because of the missed coverage on Naanee, leaving both Panther receivers open with a couple of steps on their man and in a better position to either get a TD, or a first down.

So no, I'm not wrong and you really have to be wearing some rose-colored glasses to look at the video and not see which one of the three were the most open during that play. It's not that hard to see.

Here. Perhaps this will make it a bit more clear:

Goodson is at the 5 yard line with Lennon's arms wrapped around him before the ball even gets there. Naane is at the 4 yard line running a full speed slant. 88 beat his man and has the back of the endzone all to himself.

Which one of the three carolina receivers have the closest coverage? Answer: Goodson. Which is one is furthest from a first down or TD? Answer: Goodson again.

Why is this one so hard?

Sigh....

Maybe if they had 12 defenders ;) There wasn't man. The only other guy not seen is covering smith in the faaaaar corner, nowhere near 88.

Yeah I did. More than once. Which is why I keep saying he was the worst choice. If you watch the video and see the speed Naanee had before Antrel started going after him, you will see that wasn't the case. Naanee had him easily with a blocker waiting for him. He wasn't running towards Antrel, straight for the goal line, he was running sideways and would have ran past his blocker. 88 also had his guy, and had plenty of running room to keep running away from his defender if Newton threw the ball in the back of the endzone. Only he could have caught that ball.

And I do think Goodson was his first read. But he had two other options prior to his first read becoming open that were much better choices, imo, though Rayzor says that's not how things are done, so I guess it doesn't count.

Then just go back 3 pages, cause I already did.

And your point is?

Ahhh you edited....RIGHT! That's my point. He made the pre-snap decision to go to Goodson, but passed on two other opportunities that opened up prior to Goodson getting in position. That was actually the entire point of the original post.

He didn't capitalize. What should have happened....is when Naadee cut....and the defender lost him and ran into the endzone instead of following him, leaving Antrel to pick him up, Cam should have capitalized right there instead of waiting on Goodson. He had Naadee open first. Then half a second later, when Antrel was going after Naadee, 88 became open. He could have gone to him for the TD. But instead he waited on Goodson, his pre-snap decision. The one he never took his eyes off of that allowed Lennon to hone in on.

That was my point.

Again, this wasn't a case on passing on your number 1 option. In this play, his number 1 option ended up being his number 3, because of Naanee's defender getting fooled and two other guys opening up early. That was the unexpected part that he could have/should have capitalized on.

He didn't need to turn straight up field. He could have also continued running a slant past number 11, who was in front of his defender and would have blocked for him.

But even if he turned up, he had more power and speed to get the first down at that point. Goodson was already wrapped up as he was catching the ball.

Again, that was my whoooooole point. That was the problem.

And I disagree. What matters, at least imo, is which one of his guys were in the best position to get either the TD or first down. Both of those others guys were in better positions to do that. That was the ultimate goal. Not a completion. It was 4th and out!

Please read. I said the number 1 option is always whoever is in the best position to get you the first down or TD in a 4th and goal. And regardless of how the play was designed, the way that particular play unfolded made Naadee the best choice, followed by 88, and then Goodson.

I realize Goodson was most likely his 1st option and his pre-snap decision, and for the last time, I'm saying he stuck with his pre-snap decision, which is what was the problem. What I believe he should have done is be more aware to adjust to the new opportunities created as the play unfolded.

..

[frash.exe]

Uhm....you should read over that again and see how silly it sounds.

Yes, in real NFL football, QB's frequently change their target receivers POST-snap depending on who gets open, how the play unfolds, and who beats their man. This is actually....quite normal and happens on a regular basis.

Honestly I think the throw to Goodson was probably the one that required the most precision seeing how Lennon already had him wrapped up. I don't think the throw to 88 would have been out of Cam's comfort zone at all after seeing how good he throws.

Again, I think this is just a case of him being a rookie, and the mistake wasn't poor execution on his part at all. In fact, I agree with Rayzor in believing he probably executed the play exactly as it was drawn up and it's likely Goodson just got there way too late.

I just don't agree that he should have stuck with the original execution. I think that in this case,....that was the mistake. The mistake was simply sticking with the original execution and not being aware enough to capitalize on openings. A veteran would have pulled the trigger on the other options as the play unfolded.

I do too, and had Naadee's man followed him across, Antrel would have stuck with 88 and follow him into the endzone, leaving Goodson with a lot more room to run and push past Lennon for the first down. But when Antrel had to give up 88 and switch tor Naadee, he also stood still in his spot, basically throwing an obstacle in Goodson's path.

Except you miss one thing. Lennon, the linebacker, wasn't Naanee's defender. It was Arizona #20. They were in man to man, and Naanee actually lost his man 2 steps into the play when he made his cut. The guy missed Naanee completely and went into the endzone by himself before realizing Naanee had cut across. Newton was looking in that direction and saw this take place. So knowing he's in man to man, he also knows someone else needs to pick up Naanee, or Naanee's an open target. Well that someone was Antrel, who was a step behind Naanee. That left both Naanee's defender and Antrel scrambling to adjust to their new targets, which is where the opportunity presented itself.

Naanee made a damn good cut and created those opportunities. You gotta give him credit for it even if Cam didn't take advantage of it.

His initial target, oth, Goodson, had his defender gunning straight for him from the moment the play snapped all the way to the end of the play(and yes, the fact Newton never took his eyes off Goodson is probably why). And Goodson never got close to beating him. The only defender out of these three that didn't miss his man and had to adjust was Lennon on Goodson. Again, Goodson was best defended. He was actually the riskiest target to hit.

In fact you can actually see Lennon wanting to turn and pick up Naanee, but he saw that Cam wasn't taking his eyes off Goodson. What I would have liked to see is the moment Newton saw Naanee lose # 20....his head should have started to track him across, while "knowing" he can always check back down to Goodson. That may have gotten Lennon to go after Naanee leaving Goodson open and if not he still had Naanee. That's what should have happened, but didn't.

Thank you. This is what I always believed too. I just can't see any coach sit there with a straight face and tell his QB to pass on early openings or opportunities in order to wait for his intended targets.

I believe someone already made a reply earlier where Cam stated Goodson was indeed their number one choice.

But all you have to do is watch the slow motion replay. He NEVER looks in any other direction, except Goodson's intended spot. As soon as he takes the snap, he locks in directly to the spot where he will eventually throw the ball. That's what Lennon picked up on and made him not follow Naanee and stick to Goodson.

Had that been the progression and had he done what you are saying, we would probably have a W right now. If he was dead set on throwing to Goodson, he simply forgot to sell it. He should have looked away. And again I toss that up to being a rookie and the pressure of 4th and Goal for the game during his NFL debut.

I think you're getting confused. Antrel only got on Naanee after Arizona's #20 lost him. Antrel was initially on 88. And again I don't think it matters whether or not a guy was part of the play, if he gets himself open right in front of the QB, in a position to get the down, you take him.

Last recap and I'm done because I'm getting a headeache from this: both Antrel and #20 had to readjust and find new targets, leaving both Naanee and 88 with plenty of separation from their defenders and in a position to get the early down or TD had Newton thrown them the ball.

Had Newton simply just followed Naanee with his eyes across the field, and he could have still chose to return back for Goodson(but selling the play), it would have likely gotten Lennon(who was almost sold) to go after Naanee, and we would have still gotten the down via Goodson which would have been left uncovered.

None of those things happened though because Newton never took his eyes of his pre-snap intended target.

And we're finally back to my initial point. Exactly!

Cam needs to look around and become more aware. It's nothing seriously wrong folks. I'm not crucifying him. I personally expect a rookie QB to have moments of tunnel vision.

Ok we can close this thread now.

PS: And since he already played a game, he's no longer allowed to make those mistakes as of today, since in his case, he only gets the rookie excuse for one game. I expect all of this fixed by sunday ;)

OK last one....I mean it this time. First of all, Naanee would have likely not cut up the field. He was running side to side and would have continued to run a diagonal slant, past #11. He was at top speed before Antrel even started honing in on him, so Antrel would have not caught him UNLESS he would have cut UP the field. But that would have been highly improbable because of the way he was running.

However, let's say he did that. He also had far more momentum and speed than any other player on that field, and he was actually at the 4 yard line by the time the ball would have gotten there, leaving him with enough power in the tank and short enough distance to at least get the first down if he decided to turn up by using his momentum.

But I think it would have been far more probable, and more logical, to just keep running across along his path, then cut diagonally up the field and take advantage of #11 for the block.

No, 11 pages later, I think everyone agrees with the original point that Cam needs to work on how to be more aware, and not stare down his number 1, pre-snap option.

It just never really took off because not everyone agrees on whether or not those were other options. My annoyance just comes from having to repeat myself and not really anything to do with Cam;)

But for those that need to see what's in "my mind"......

31 would have been blocked by 11. Antrel would never catch Naanee if Naanee runs that route and doesn't need to be blocked. In the picture it's deceiving because yes, it looks like 31 or Antrel could take down Naanee, but when you watch the video and see it in motion, and pay attention to the speed of Naanee, you'll notice why that would have never happened. Neither one of those guys have any kind of momentum at this point while Naanee was in full stride. He's actually slowing down in the second pic because the ball was already thrown.

Can't really make it more obvious than that....and neither one of those throws is "extraordinarily difficult".

PS: The more I look at that first pic, the more I think Cam expected Lennon to follow Naanee, since he looks like he's biting there, but him not taking his eyes off of Goodson is what killed it.

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I can see no amount of logic is going to convince you. Neither defender was "closing in" on Naanee, unless you wanna throw away physics, speed, momentum and reality.

Naanee had more than a step on Antrel, who was just then starting to run, and the fact #31 is on the outside is a GOOD THING for that route. Not a bad thing. He's got to get around 11 to get to Naanee. 11 would have ran between the two, parallel to Naanee's route. At the point shown in the first pic, #31 is actually in-between switching directions and shifting his momentum in the opposite direction Naanee is running, at full speed. Lafell is moving towards the middle of the field so he's having to go back the other way in order to stick by Lafell. He's actually worried about Lafell, not Naanee.

Look again:

In the second pic the play's already dead, the ball's in the air, and Naanee's already slowed down. That's why it looks like 31 is "closing in". Naanee stopped running once he saw who the ball was thrown to.

I only posted the second pic to show you Olsen had the inside route on his guy, but that could have also been anticipated at the point depicted in the first pic. Cam would have not had to "wait" at all. He would have thrown the ball at the same time or earlier because you can anticipate the route. Olsen's route was clearly designed to go there from the get go, so that didn't require any adjustment. By the time ball gets to the back and left of the endzone, so does 88....ahead of #20, where only 88 can make a grab for it. It's no different then throwing a fade pass to the side of the endzone.

PS: I was going to remind you those defenders can't touch the receivers until after they catch the ball, and that made me realize yet another possibility. Lafell, #11, actually had the 1st down at that point too PLUS the inside route as well, and if Cam would have thrown him the ball at that point, he would have either caught it and we get to decline a Pass Interference call, or we get the PI. Notice 31 with his hands on Lafell. Heck that may have actually been the best choice if Newton would have looked left.

Where do you think those shots came from? I watched the video myself a million times already. I'm also backing it up with stills so I don't do what you do: I think you're wrong because I think so.

And no, LaFell is not just occupying his man. LOL. There's no such thing as designing routes that serve no purpose other than just to occupy their man. That was an inside route he ran meant to be another option for a first down, not a TD.

Every route the receivers ran on that play was actually ran perfect and designed with a purpose of either getting a TD or a first down. Smith and Olson's were the only two designed to get the TD in the endzone. Goodson and Lafell were designed for a first down with the possibility of a TD. And Naanee's slant, was designed to throw the D off, but also with the option for either. None of the receivers were just "decoys".

I don't feel like drawing another pic for Lafell route again, but you should be able to tell by looking at his position from pic 1 to 2 or watching the video. That's just another common route receivers make that I have seen countless times in the NFL. They run just past the 1st down marker while pushing their defender back, turn around right in front of their defender, so their backs are to the defender and wait for the ball, typically right in their stomach area, or where they have to crouch a little low to protect it from the defender getting his hand around. That's what Lafell was doing. He wasn't just occupying his man. If Cam opts to go for Naanee, then at that point, Lafell becomes a blocker for Naanee's slant route.

And as far as your referee excuse...it's ridiculous. Maybe you would have a point if we lived in a two dimensional world, but if you are watching the video you should have seen the replay:

Cam's throwing lane and timing to hit Naanee takes place before he ever gets to the referee, visible on the LEFT side of the screen.

Smith was covered pretty well actually. And again, 31 just didn't have the speed to catch up to Naanee. If he was actually Naanee's defender, I could see that, but his man was 88, and he had to let him go, switch directions and pick up Naanee. As far as Lafell goes, and changing his pre-snap progression, that's exactly what he should have done regardless. I think that WAS part of the design.

It's simple logic.

Even if the play was intended to go to Goodsen, it would have never been designed for Cam to stare him down and never look anywhere else. It would have been designed for Cam to look right, look left, fake(or something to this effect), and then just dump it back to the right to Goodsen when he gets in position, since he was the last one to get open.

If the play was designed for Goodson, then they had to build a fake/sell into it, because they knew from the get go Goodson would be the last guy to get to his position and there was time that needed to be killed.

I don't care how you look at it or from whatever angle you choose to view it from, there were better options on that play. And there's no way I believe our OC decided to run a play in 4th and Goal on the last possession of the game that only gave our QB one viable target, who happened to be the last one to get open and NO possible alternatives if he fails to get open. By the time Goodson got open everyone else was basically at the end of their routes, including Smith.

If that's the case, I'm screaming bloody murder. But come on guys.....it wasn't. It was a play with multiple open targets. Cam just didn't look for them. And that's the end of the story.

Errr...apples and oranges. Aaron's receiver is running a sideline fade who is basically the first guy to get open and he starts off his route lined up at the line of scrimmage. It doesn't freaking matter if he's staring him down because he's the ONLY guy that's going to catch that ball if he makes the completion and there's no time for anyone else to interfere. If the defender tackles him it's when he's already got the first down or TD.

Our so called "intended receiver" is lined up next to our QB pre-snap and is the last guy to get open in position. If Arizona's defender reads Newton's target, which he did, and tackles Goodson, which he did, we don't get the first down or TD, which we didn't! Newton could have stared Goodson down all day too, if the intended completion was to be made past the first down marker and he was the only one who could get that ball. It wouldn't have mattered if he got tackled. That was not the design of Goodson's route at all.

Alright, it's just silly now. I can see you guys will just not accept any kind of criticism against Cam, and I can understand the excitement, but ya'll are pulling straws at this point.

PS: Rayzor you almost had me going in thinking you knew more about breaking down plays than I did, but come one man....even I can figure that one out!

Fine. It's called a back shoulder throw....the point remains the same. Aaron's got no reason to hide it when he's receiver's going to be the only one past the marker that can catch the ball. When the defender's allowed to touch him, he already has the first down or TD.

I don't think it was a bad play to call. Newton had 5 viable targets, and 3 of them were on open on the right side of the field, the same side he would be looking for his intended target, Goodson.

I do think the previous 4 were bad calls considering not a single run play was called from the 11 yard line in 4 down territory.

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Well if we assume the play was called for Newton to get it to Goodson, and only Goodson, and if we assume that Goodson was supposed to be in a different position than where he was when the ball was thrown to him, and if we overlook the fact Cam gave away his intended target by looking right at him while passing on other open targets in a better position to get a first down or TD then......yeah....it's meaningless.

And, just so I'm clear, if we assume that that wasn't the case, and that Cam did have other better options, if he would have looked, and that the play was drawn up to give him multiple targets in position to get the first down or TD then it was just a bad play call on 4th and goal on the OC's part?

Did I get it right?

:rolleyes:

PS: I actually honestly feel like I've learned a lot in this discussion. No joke. Made me wanna take a closer look at dissecting our team's offense and plays. This is probably what defensive coordinators do when watching tape. And I actually came away quite impressed with our receivers' route running. They have it down pat on that play if you ask me.

You know I'm reading your replies, but I swear to God, I honestly do not think you are reading what you are responding to. Either that or you don't understand. And I'm not being a smart ass, I'm being serious, because some of your rebuttals don't actually respond to what I'm saying.

Like this:

I have no idea what that is actually responding to, because what I was stating was, IF Goodson was the pre-snap decision, designed by the play, then Cam would have been expected to sell/fake in order to burn time for Goodson to get in position and not give away his intended target. In other words...don't stare him down from the point the ball snaps until you actually throw if that's the guy you were supposed to throw to the entire time. I was responding to the argument made earlier that Goodson was the pre-snap decision.

Your other comments just don't edge on reality:

Goodson was never wide open, and would have at no point whatsoever been wide open no matter what he did, because Lennon was on him like white on rice, from the moment the ball snapped until he caught the ball, thanks to Cam never taking his eyes off of him.

Or this:

It's not that I don't agree, it's that it's not REAL. It didn't happen. You can clearly see watching that video Cam stared at Goodson and the intended passing target the entire time. He never looked left for Naanee, he never looked up and down the middle for Olson. Those things, just simply never happened.

And this argument has shown me repeatedly that you do not understand. For the nth time, one guy is standing still at that point, and is 5 yards away from his target, and yes I'm exaggerating for simplicity's sake, while his target is moving full sprint.

What's he going to do? Make an instantaneous 10 yard step, stretch his arm like Stretch Armstrong? He'd have to get up to speed, chase, run faster than Naanee, and catch Naanee before Naanee crosses the 1 yard line. Unless number 25 is a freak and runs a 1.90, I just don't see that happening the way Naanee was running his route in full stride.

So why do you insist on saying they were "closing in" on him? Because you saw this after the play died? If anything Naanee would have probably continued to pull away from him had he continued running.

The only way he catches him is if Naanee turns straight up field, which would have been unlikely, it would have meant breaking his route, and stupid. If Naanee gets that ball he would have most likely continued running a diagonal route like I showed in the pics towards the corner for the 1st or TD. He only goes up field if he feels he can bulldoze over his defender, juke them or stiff arm them. Running the slant route makes him untouchable by #25. Number 31 has to get by his man, Lafell, to get to Naanee.

If Naanee gets that ball he's home free. Naanee had to beat one guy, #31, who was locked in with Lafell, also without momentum and would have had help from Lafell. Goodson, was moving slower, was further back, and had to beat 3 defenders to get the 1st down, while already being wrapped up at the point of catch.

So how in the world is Goodson in a better position to get us the down?

lol

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Makes you miss AKPantherfan.

over 38000 characters of nothing

[OARevolution]

over 38000 characters of nothing

lol

[OARevolution]

Not a fade:

Yeah I was just saying in general I don't like fade routes on fourth down. Back shoulder throw is a different story as I said I would have no problem with that.