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Fixing the running game a.k.a same story,different year


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#46 CPantherKing

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 11:02 PM

That 1st down % is probably the most underrated part of Cam's game, and one that is rarely ever included in what he brings to the table as a QB since it isn't really a traditional stat.  It keeps drives alive that probably shouldn't have been kept alive.

 

Damn Cam has been shitting on the rest of the league in that category the past 3 years.

 

Yes he has. Dominated it since his rookie season.

 

Only one other person has led that stat for 3 seasons in a row. Mike Vick during his prime in the mid 2000s. No one has ever held that 4 seasons in a row.

 

I will put money on it that Cam does it again this season. They only other player that could take it from Cam is RG3 if his knee is up to it.



#47 BuffaloBills62

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 04:24 PM

http://www.sportingc...ercentage/2013/

Cam Newton has been #1 on 1st down percentage in the league the past 3 seasons.

Jonathan Stewart was #2 in 2011 and Mike Tolbert was #2 in 2013

Mike Tobert was over 44.4% in 2012, but he only had 54 carries.

5 of the top 6 for rushing first down percentage in the past 3 seasons of all rushers in 3 seasons.

I have no doubt the Panthers have what they need to get first downs and move the ball into the red zone while eating up the clock.

The Panthers issue has been red zone offense in 2012 and 2013. They lacked the receiving threats to open up the running lanes by threatening the back of the endzone. They loaded up on that this off-season. So, I see the Panthers coming up big in the red zone now.

The Panthers now have Benjamin, Olsen, Cotchery, Dickson, Williams, and Avant in the passing game on 3rd and short. They had Olsen and LaFell the past 2 seasons, and we know how many times LaFell dropped passes or better yet popped them up for the DBs to intercept it.

great research and time spent on this. Thanks, I appreciate it.

I guess its easy to overlook all of that when it never gets points on the board and that 0-3 attempt against sf still leaves a bitter taste.

#48 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 05:11 PM

great research and time spent on this. Thanks, I appreciate it.

I guess its easy to overlook all of that when it never gets points on the board and that 0-3 attempt against sf still leaves a bitter taste.


Carolina was 10th in pts per drive last year I believe.

You seem to confuse a team getting lots of offensive touches and producing larger overall stats means they are better on offense.....it happens to many

#49 fjblair

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 06:06 PM

Well if the OL is problem with the run game, the OL will become the problem in the passing game. I just don't think it is all OL with the run issues the past couple of years.



#50 tailg8or

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 07:05 PM

http://www.sportingc...ercentage/2013/

 

Cam Newton has been #1 on 1st down percentage in the league the past 3 seasons.

 

Jonathan Stewart was #2 in 2011 and Mike Tolbert was #2 in 2013

 

Mike Tobert was over 44.4% in 2012, but he only had 54 carries.

 

5 of the top 6 for rushing first down percentage in the past 3 seasons of all rushers in 3 seasons.

 

I have no doubt the Panthers have what they need to get first downs and move the ball into the red zone while eating up the clock.

 

The Panthers issue has been red zone offense in 2012 and 2013. They lacked the receiving threats to open up the running lanes by threatening the back of the endzone. They loaded up on that this off-season. So, I see the Panthers coming up big in the red zone now.

 

The Panthers now have Benjamin, Olsen, Cotchery, Dickson, Williams, and Avant in the passing game on 3rd and short. They had Olsen and LaFell the past 2 seasons, and we know how many times LaFell dropped passes or better yet popped them up for the DBs to intercept it.

 

The above included an all-pro left tackle and veteran OG.  Currently, we have two UDFAs for bookends and a rookie OG.  Not quite the same.

 

The majority of Newton's first downs weren't designed runs.  All that stat tells me is he probably got flushed from the pocket and scrambled for first downs.  Actually more a negative than a positive.  It's great that we have that weapon, but Shula doesn't design runs for Cam very often and as stated, wants him to carry the ball less this year. 

 

Tolbert gets the rock in almost every short yardage situation so his high percentage is not surprising.

 

Red zone is a problem but by far, not the only problem.  Shula will run the same offense as last year.  The current WRs are better suited to his scheme so, despite losing our best WR, the current WR corps (as a whole) is better than last year.  Cotchery and Avant > LaFell and Ginn in this system.  Granted, Shula did very little to leverage Ginn's speed. 

 

The problem is clearly with the OL and it is not good.  It was a big concern during the offseason and after preseason game 1, it still is.  Our 1st team OL got stuffed by the Bills' backups.   Yes, it is preseason but individual battles still matter.  Kalil is the only reliable starter and will have his hands full with the youngsters next to him.  Lets not forget that Shula's plays take notoriously long to develop.  Power runs usually include lineman pulling into holes and vertical, downfield passing takes time.  Ball control offense starts with controlling the line of scrimmage.

 

While there are plenty of questions / concerns regarding the starting OL, lets pray nobody gets hurt because our backups ... wait ... who are the backups?


Edited by tailg8or, 11 August 2014 - 07:07 PM.


#51 CPantherKing

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 08:30 PM

great research and time spent on this. Thanks, I appreciate it.

I guess its easy to overlook all of that when it never gets points on the board and that 0-3 attempt against sf still leaves a bitter taste.

 

Yeah I know what you mean. Bothered me too. So, I studied that.

 

Check the guards out. They ran behind Chris Scott. He had no movement. He just falls to the ground and touches no one. All he has to do is launch himself into Willis and Cam scores. Trai Turner fixes this no question. Cam had no chance at a push. He had to go over Scott and through Willis with no drive because Scott flopped on the ground. You can see Scott's helmet as he slides on the ground.

 

CamNewton4th.gif

 

Also, watch the 49ers defense. They show absolutely no respect for a pass to to the back of the end zone or some corner fades.

 

Cam Newton QB draw on 2nd and Goal with 0:55 in the 1st quarter. Stopped at 1. Who is the first to contact Cam? Chris Scott who has no push and slows Cam down.

 

On the next play at the 1 Tolbert takes the hand off and goes to launch himself into the air. He is undercut and has no push off. Who contacted Tolbert first and took his legs out? Chris Scott as he falls to the ground.

 

The 4th down play that follows is above.

 

So, who was the impact player at the goal line? Chris Scott. He was dominated and played horribly. He was more of an obstacle than he was a blocker.

 

Next goal line series. 1st and Goal with 6:35 in the 2nd quarter. Cam keeps it sweeping left. Cam launches himself at the 4 yard line, but he is undercut. Care to guess by who? You guessed it Chris Scott. Scott lumbers down the field touching no one. He is slow and gets in Newton's path. Scott stops in Newton's path and begins to cut block toward a defender, but before he can touch the defender he impedes Cam's momentum as he cuts Cam Newton.

 

On 2nd and Goal, Cam keeps it again scrambling to the right. Ben Hartsock does a horrible job of blocking, and lets Brooks go by easily to swipe Cam's legs stopping Cam at the 1 yard line.

 

3rd and Goal at the 1. Tolbert carries. Who is the first one to hit Tolbert? Not a Niner. This time it is the other guard Travelle Wharton who pulls and stumbles into Tolbert in the backfield. To make things worse Brooks comes in unblocked. The DE pushes down on Scott who was suppose to get Brooks and buries Scott. Meanwhile, Byron Bell pushes the DE who is burying Scott into Scott when Bell should have read the DE and slid off to Brooks, Instead Bell ends up on top of Scott and Brooks runs in to finish off Tolbert who was first contacted by Travelle Wharton.

 

First contact on all but one of these was with our own offensive guards not the defenders. You cannot have that at the goal line. The guards need to be quick on their feet and on a defender quickly driving them back into other defenders. You cut block them once you are at the goal line - not before you are at the goal line.

 

Was it Cam and Tolbert? No. It was Chris Scott and Travelle Wharton as the major offenders. Hartsock and Bell just made bad calls during the play with their blocks. Chris Scott was the 49ers most valuable defender.

 

So, needless to say I am happy to see Silatolu and Turner moving faster and mauling defenders.



#52 Alverez

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 05:21 AM

We have to remember that the 2011 season when our run game was last productive (ranked 3rd) was when we had the 2 tight end sets, and a top ranked Oline (9th per Pro Football Focus). And that was Cam's rookie season. (as previously mentioned) so the Run game was a staple.
 

We also have to remember that DWill and JStew were both healthy at that time. (something we haven't had the luxury of since then)

 

When the run game declined we had only Dwill, no TE set that was really productive after we lost Shockey... an Oline ranked 26th (again from Pro Football Focus) and no Kalil.

2013 according to PFF again, we had the 7th ranked Oline (and we complained about how horrid they were)
 

Moving into 2014, and we know it's still to be proven... but it looks like (for now) we may have both RB's healthy for the first time since 2011. Add in Tolbert... getting the 2 TE sets back, AND tall, ball catching WR's & TE's across the board, and there's only the Oline to be concerned about. (which we are)

 

We will see how well the Oline is soon enough.

If the line can be serviceable as we all feel it may just be (and we get some depth "just in case") We may be on to something.

Just my opinion.



#53 rmoneyg35

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 06:33 AM

I see how people are saying that our run game sucks because we have no pass game and defenses stack men in the box on us. To that I say what about the years when double trouble dominated?

Really and truly we haven't had a good receiving threat beside Steve Smith in fact we have always had average passing but have had decent if not great numbers from double trouble up until last year.

Now I could say its age or health but I believe it's our line or scheme. I am looking forward to us using two tight end sets, if our receivers can be a threat in the pass game then it should obviously open up the ground game.


Also I am looking forward to Brandon Williams laying someone out on a block. He and Tolbert are probably the most intimidating guys on offense and offer a toughness against opponents as well.

I hope Shula has thought about using some 3 TE sets as well because we have the talent and players to be successful at it.


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Edited by rmoneyg35, 12 August 2014 - 06:41 AM.


#54 tailg8or

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 07:08 AM

Yeah I know what you mean. Bothered me too. So, I studied that.

 

Check the guards out. They ran behind Chris Scott. He had no movement. He just falls to the ground and touches no one. All he has to do is launch himself into Willis and Cam scores. Trai Turner fixes this no question. Cam had no chance at a push. He had to go over Scott and through Willis with no drive because Scott flopped on the ground. You can see Scott's helmet as he slides on the ground.

 

CamNewton4th.gif

 

Also, watch the 49ers defense. They show absolutely no respect for a pass to to the back of the end zone or some corner fades.

 

Cam Newton QB draw on 2nd and Goal with 0:55 in the 1st quarter. Stopped at 1. Who is the first to contact Cam? Chris Scott who has no push and slows Cam down.

 

On the next play at the 1 Tolbert takes the hand off and goes to launch himself into the air. He is undercut and has no push off. Who contacted Tolbert first and took his legs out? Chris Scott as he falls to the ground.

 

The 4th down play that follows is above.

 

So, who was the impact player at the goal line? Chris Scott. He was dominated and played horribly. He was more of an obstacle than he was a blocker.

 

  Did Scott get credited with any tackles during that game?  LOL

 

Ironically, it looks like Wharton was moving his defender.



#55 rayzor

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 08:06 AM

Carolina was 10th in pts per drive last year I believe.

You seem to confuse a team getting lots of offensive touches and producing larger overall stats means they are better on offense.....it happens to many

yeah, i think he's basing a whole lot on overall yardage and points without knowledge of the system and philosophy of game management and looking at the stats that tell the more accurate picture of what we're doing and it's effectiveness. he came in feeling like he was knowledgable about the team, but he's been looking at the wrong information and working under wrong assumptions.

that's what happens, though, when you haven't spent a lot of time studying a team's behaviors and philosophies. when you analyze that team, you're likely going to get a lot of things wrong. i would do the same thing to most teams. those that we face regularly within our division, i feel pretty comfortable in my assessing of them, but when it comes to teams that are out of conference...any assumptions i make are largely misinformed and if i went in acting like i knew my poo, i'd probably be making an ass of myself.

it's tempting to come into forums trying to sound like i have a solid grasp on things and feel the need to correct some homer views of their team, but the best thing to do is to come in with a desire to be educated rather than educate.

#56 Kick

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 09:11 AM

A simple solution is to get the OL to move bodies out the path of the backs.  If the play continues to run up the middle and face a wall of opponents, we will continue to miss downs.  Yes, I want the QB protected, but, let's get energized about the running game. 



#57 FootballMaestro

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 10:07 AM

yeah, i think he's basing a whole lot on overall yardage and points without knowledge of the system and philosophy of game management and looking at the stats that tell the more accurate picture of what we're doing and it's effectiveness. he came in feeling like he was knowledgable about the team, but he's been looking at the wrong information and working under wrong assumptions.

that's what happens, though, when you haven't spent a lot of time studying a team's behaviors and philosophies. when you analyze that team, you're likely going to get a lot of things wrong. i would do the same thing to most teams. those that we face regularly within our division, i feel pretty comfortable in my assessing of them, but when it comes to teams that are out of conference...any assumptions i make are largely misinformed and if i went in acting like i knew my poo, i'd probably be making an ass of myself.

it's tempting to come into forums trying to sound like i have a solid grasp on things and feel the need to correct some homer views of their team, but the best thing to do is to come in with a desire to be educated rather than educate.

 

This is why so many national broadcasters are wrong about a player or a team, cause they don't take the time to study or learn about the player or team who they're discussing.
 



#58 CPantherKing

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 07:34 PM

I see how people are saying that our run game sucks because we have no pass game and defenses stack men in the box on us. To that I say what about the years when double trouble dominated?

Really and truly we haven't had a good receiving threat beside Steve Smith in fact we have always had average passing but have had decent if not great numbers from double trouble up until last year.

Now I could say its age or health but I believe it's our line or scheme. I am looking forward to us using two tight end sets, if our receivers can be a threat in the pass game then it should obviously open up the ground game.


Also I am looking forward to Brandon Williams laying someone out on a block. He and Tolbert are probably the most intimidating guys on offense and offer a toughness against opponents as well.

I hope Shula has thought about using some 3 TE sets as well because we have the talent and players to be successful at it.


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Double Trouble dominated in 2008 and 2009. That was when you had to triple team Steve Smith and Muhsin Muhammad returned from his stint with the Bears. Panthers also had 2 serviceable TEs who could threaten the seams in the passing game in Jeff King and Dante Rosario.

 

2010 was the year the Panthers tanked the season.

 

2011 Double Trouble had Olsen and Shockey as well as LaFell and Naanee. So, 4 big targets to pair with Steve Smith. That opened up the running game. Eventhough LaFell and Naanee were inconsistent with their hands they still presented enough of a threat. This was the season we wished we had a defense.

 

2012 and 2013 you could not keep the running backs healthy.

 

Steve Smith had Muhammad/Walls in 2002, Muhammad/Proehl in 2003, Smith had Keyshawn in 2006, Muhammad with 2TEs returned in 2008 and 2009, and 2011 Smith had Olsen and Shockey.

 

In hindsight, Panthers should have paid Muhammad to keep him paired with Smith up to 2010.

 

Then in 2010, the Panthers have a 1st round pick because they never wasted it on a 2nd round pick for Everette Brown. So, instead of Everette Brown, Jimmy Clausen, Brandon LaFell, and Armanti Edwards the Panthers play it smart knowing they are tanking the season by beefing up their passing game and waiting for a QB in 2011 or 2012 (Since any scout with sense could see what was coming with those QB crops). The Panthers come away with Demaryius Thomas, Golden Tate, Jimmy Graham, and Dennis Pitta to pair with Steve Smith.

 

Hindsight is fun.



#59 rmoneyg35

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 06:25 AM

Double Trouble dominated in 2008 and 2009. That was when you had to triple team Steve Smith and Muhsin Muhammad returned from his stint with the Bears. Panthers also had 2 serviceable TEs who could threaten the seams in the passing game in Jeff King and Dante Rosario.

2010 was the year the Panthers tanked the season.

2011 Double Trouble had Olsen and Shockey as well as LaFell and Naanee. So, 4 big targets to pair with Steve Smith. That opened up the running game. Eventhough LaFell and Naanee were inconsistent with their hands they still presented enough of a threat. This was the season we wished we had a defense.

2012 and 2013 you could not keep the running backs healthy.

Steve Smith had Muhammad/Walls in 2002, Muhammad/Proehl in 2003, Smith had Keyshawn in 2006, Muhammad with 2TEs returned in 2008 and 2009, and 2011 Smith had Olsen and Shockey.

In hindsight, Panthers should have paid Muhammad to keep him paired with Smith up to 2010.

Then in 2010, the Panthers have a 1st round pick because they never wasted it on a 2nd round pick for Everette Brown. So, instead of Everette Brown, Jimmy Clausen, Brandon LaFell, and Armanti Edwards the Panthers play it smart knowing they are tanking the season by beefing up their passing game and waiting for a QB in 2011 or 2012 (Since any scout with sense could see what was coming with those QB crops). The Panthers come away with Demaryius Thomas, Golden Tate, Jimmy Graham, and Dennis Pitta to pair with Steve Smith.

Hindsight is fun.


Yes some of those years we did have an aging Keshawn Johnson and an aging Moose. We never had a great receiving Tight end from the time Walls left to when Olsen was traded here.

I remember Nanee but he was an average receiver, same as Lafell but Lafell could block. We did have Shockey and Olsen who did put up good numbers together. If using two TE sets can replicate the same offensive numbers it did that year then I will be very happy.


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