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Saca312

Film Study: Why Butler's Interception Was The Right Read For Cam & Just An Unfortunate Result

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4 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

The only ones dumbing down our franchise are those thinking Funchess was actually part of the read and QBs read the whole field on every snap on the regular.

 

Cool.  I didn't state anything about Funchess.  

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47 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

The only ones dumbing down our franchise are those thinking Funchess was actually part of the read and QBs read the whole field on every snap on the regular.

 

funchess isn't a read, but everything goes out the window when coverage is blown...especially when it's man to man.

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1 hour ago, Saca312 said:

The only ones dumbing down our franchise are those thinking Funchess was actually part of the read and QBs read the whole field on every snap on the regular.

 

not sure how he can not be apart of the read. 

he is on the same side of the field. 

his man has to choose him or byrd to follow. 

every play should have 3 reads. 

for this one, one in the middle, byrd deep and funches for a check down / flats. 

when someone is double covered you look for another WR, plain and simple. 

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4 hours ago, PrimeTimeHeel said:

not sure how he can not be apart of the read. 

he is on the same side of the field. 

his man has to choose him or byrd to follow. 

every play should have 3 reads. 

for this one, one in the middle, byrd deep and funches for a check down / flats. 

when someone is double covered you look for another WR, plain and simple. 

Oh lord. 

Can people really not understand Byrd wasn’t originally double covered and shouldn’t have been according to that play and Malcolm Butler literally ad-libbed his assignment, which he knew was a decoy?

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I mean those of you vehemently denying the idea that there are plenty of one reads and half field reads most if the time aren’t helping yourselves. It just makes you look comically stupid.

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20 hours ago, csx said:

Yep.....watching this play you can tell they had this play diagnosed from the start..as if they knew he was locked on to Byrd. They were correct.

And the article goes over exactly that. Shula ran that exact play a drive before and Butler diagnosed that.

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16 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

I mean those of you vehemently denying the idea that there are plenty of one reads and half field reads most if the time aren’t helping yourselves. It just makes you look comically stupid.

Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself there big boy . Are you an insurance salesman or something?

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4 hours ago, Saca312 said:

Oh lord. 

Can people really not understand Byrd wasn’t originally double covered and shouldn’t have been according to that play and Malcolm Butler literally ad-libbed his assignment, which he knew was a decoy?

Doesn't matter if he was originally or not. When cam threw the ball he was double covered. You don't determine where you are throwing the ball pre snap. You wait and see how the defense reacts to the route combos. You make your reads. 

Even if Byrd was not double covered it was still the wrong read. His man was on him like glue. Was no separation at all.

Such a low percentage pass you are basically throwing away your 3rd down. 

Those go / fly / fade routed should be thrown sparingly and only when the guy is wide open and or has a few steps on the DB with single coverage 

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11 minutes ago, PrimeTimeHeel said:

Doesn't matter if he was originally or not. When cam threw the ball he was double covered. You don't determine where you are throwing the ball pre snap. You wait and see how the defense reacts to the route combos. You make your reads. 

Even if Byrd was not double covered it was still the wrong read. His man was on him like glue. Was no separation at all.

Such a low percentage pass you are basically throwing away your 3rd down. 

Those go / fly / fade routed should be thrown sparingly and only when the guy is wide open and or has a few steps on the DB with single coverage 

Some receivers run routes literally just to open up up different parts of the field. The qb is only going to be able to make like 2 solid reads before the ball has to be thrown. Hell, even in practice, sometimes a qb makes a pass to one receiver exclusively on a certain play, as that play is "going to be open".

Most of the time, if the same play is called more than once against a defense, it's because it worked the first time, or they are making an adjustment because another receiver was disturbingly open, not something the qb would see if that receiver wasn't a) targeted in practice on account of play design or b) had a bunch of big fugers in his face and needed to get rid of the ball.


The point is, the qb isn't quite as omnipotent as your comment would imply. Also, it was right over funchess in terms of coverage - not something cam would have seen at the last second before deciding that funch should be open.

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1 hour ago, Saca312 said:

Some receivers run routes literally just to open up up different parts of the field. The qb is only going to be able to make like 2 solid reads before the ball has to be thrown. Hell, even in practice, sometimes a qb makes a pass to one receiver exclusively on a certain play, as that play is "going to be open".

Most of the time, if the same play is called more than once against a defense, it's because it worked the first time, or they are making an adjustment because another receiver was disturbingly open, not something the qb would see if that receiver wasn't a) targeted in practice on account of play design or b) had a bunch of big fugers in his face and needed to get rid of the ball.


The point is, the qb isn't quite as omnipotent as your comment would imply. Also, it was right over funchess in terms of coverage - not something cam would have seen at the last second before deciding that funch should be open.

Of course routes are suppose to compliment each other and open up some part of the field. Fly , go, and fade routes are usually meant to occupy a Safety and open up short and middle.

How many reads a QB will or can make depends on the OL. Qbs can generally expect to make 3 reads a play. Ie 3 seconds before a pocket begins to collapse.

If your QB is only making 2 reads you better hope the OC is calling perfect plays everytime.

 You never know if a play is going to be open. Even if you know the exact D called some players mess up and don't follow script. 

At best there is should be open. 

I want our QB to be able to make 3 reads and not throw into double coverage. 

When cam dropped back and saw Byrd was more than covered he should know funches is essentially a check down in the flat. Especially when cam saw Byrd was double covered ie funches man. 

 

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3 hours ago, PrimeTimeHeel said:

When cam dropped back and saw Byrd was more than covered he should know funches is essentially a check down in the flat. Especially when cam saw Byrd was double covered ie funches man. 

yeah, except generally quarterbacks don't do that. 

looks like I'm gonna have to spell it out to you. so let's begin.

first of all, take a look at the below material:

Quote

There is a constant rush to assign blame whenever a quarterback throws an interception. The tired and lazy takes about the refusal to go through progressions or read the entire field circulate the internet. True, quarterbacks are responsible for interceptions. However, there are times when the quarterback makes the correct read based on the pass concept and situation.

Fellow an inferior site contributor CanadianPanther attempted to debunk these myths last week when he broke down the “flood” concept. There needs to be an understanding of what quarterbacks are asked to do on any given pass concept

and now the biggie.

Quote

The quarterback can’t expect to freelance outside of structure.

so, as we can see, passing concepts dictate how many reads a QB will make. any coach/anyone with football experience will attest to the fact this is true. Passing concepts are varied, usually involving 1-3 reads.

I'll take another source that will attest to that:

http://smartfootball.com/quarterbacking/reading-grass-versus-reading-full-coverages-or-keying-specific-pass-defenders

Quote

it’s not likely or common for the quarterback to hit number four or five in the progression. Instead it makes more sense to give him multiple 1-2-3 reads, either keying off the movement of a particular defender or reading the general coverage structure.

Full field reads are rare and impractical, and there are certainly plenty that involve only 1-2 reads. 

For this particular play, the Panthers ran something known as the slot-fade concept. This design has the outside wide receiver as the decoy. The role of the outside receiver is to hold the wide cornerback and allow the slot for a favorable one-on-one matchup.

More information here:

https://huskerchalktalk.com/2017/08/30/concept-wednesday-slot-fade/

FS Decision.jpg

In this version of Slot Fade, Nebraska uses a 6-man protection with the X receiver (usually Stanley Morgan) on a Corner route and the Z receiver (usually De’Mornay Pierson-El) on a delayed breaking inside route.  The running back initially adds to the protection before leaking out late as a check down option.

Nebraska will also run this by moving the Y receiver (tight end) over to the other side and running a Divide route off the Slot Fade to attack a Cover 2 safety.  The Z receiver’s route can be a number of things depending on the cornerback’s leverage, but all of them are short routes designed to get the cornerback to sit early in coverage.  Frequently, it’s a Hitch route.

...

FS Decision.jpg

In Cover 1 and Cover 3, your free safety is responsible for the middle third of the field between the hash marks.  This puts him in a bind on two vertical routes, as he must decide which vertical route to assist.  And once he chooses, he typically leaves the other route in a one-on-one match up.

The delayed inside breaking route from the Z receiver is designed to get the cornerback to sit down on the route.

Because the FS has to cover so much ground in support, the QB can use his eyes to direct the free safety to one side of the field before throwing back to the other vertical route.  This is what announcers mean when they discuss QBs controlling safeties with their eyes.  Look early in the pass drop to the X receiver’s route before throwing to the slot WR.  Or look the FS to the slot WR before throwing the Corner route to the X receiver.

________

So, as you can see, the "z receiver" is a decoy; literally not for any other reason than to get the cornerback to sit on the route. We have already established that QBs don't change up the passing concept on the spot because that simply never makes sense. So, the correct read was anyone but Funchess, because there's no game-book out there on the slot-fade concept that tells you to throw to the z receiver.

Here's an example of how it's executed from the Eagles. Same exact play, except the outside corner stayed with his assignment and didn't do what Butler did.

Panthers ran the exact same thing. Funchess is a decoy and not part of the QBs read. Byrd is in the slot designed to beat the press. Patriots are in cover 1 with a single high safety up top.

https://streamable.com/qwpqd

Cam goes for his only read, which is Byrd. He looks left to draw the high safety and then throws the ball, as per his reads require him to do so. Malcolm Butler ad-libbed and made a good play on the ball. Cam still made the right read and decision due to the concept.

So yes, you are wrong, and no matter how much you say it Cam was never supposed to throw to the z receiver, and i'd guarantee you every other elite NFL qb would do the same. 

 

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sorry if im sounding like an ass, but it's annoying to hear so many people not understand how progressions/reads work, and why not every wide open receiver is part of their read.

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30 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

yeah, except generally quarterbacks don't do that. 

looks like I'm gonna have to spell it out to you. so let's begin.

Looking forward to this

first of all, take a look at the below material:

Of course and unless you are privy to Panther meetings, playbooks, etc you do not know what Cam's exact reads / progressions on that play. 

and now the biggie.

If a passing play only has one read its a terrible play. 3rd and short to medium and you got one read, well good luck being successful most of the time. Generally speaking, a QB is expected to make about 3 reads. 

so, as we can see, passing concepts dictate how many reads a QB will make. any coach/anyone with football experience will attest to the fact this is true. Passing concepts are varied, usually involving 1-3 reads.

I'll take another source that will attest to that:

http://smartfootball.com/quarterbacking/reading-grass-versus-reading-full-coverages-or-keying-specific-pass-defenders

Full field reads are rare and impractical, and there are certainly plenty that involve only 1-2 reads. 

For this particular play, the Panthers ran something known as the slot-fade concept. This design has the outside wide receiver as the decoy. The role of the outside receiver is to hold the wide cornerback and allow the slot for a favorable one-on-one matchup.

More information here:

https://huskerchalktalk.com/2017/08/30/concept-wednesday-slot-fade/

FS Decision.jpg

In this version of Slot Fade, Nebraska uses a 6-man protection with the X receiver (usually Stanley Morgan) on a Corner route and the Z receiver (usually De’Mornay Pierson-El) on a delayed breaking inside route.  The running back initially adds to the protection before leaking out late as a check down option.

Nebraska will also run this by moving the Y receiver (tight end) over to the other side and running a Divide route off the Slot Fade to attack a Cover 2 safety.  The Z receiver’s route can be a number of things depending on the cornerback’s leverage, but all of them are short routes designed to get the cornerback to sit early in coverage.  Frequently, it’s a Hitch route.

...

FS Decision.jpg

In Cover 1 and Cover 3, your free safety is responsible for the middle third of the field between the hash marks.  This puts him in a bind on two vertical routes, as he must decide which vertical route to assist.  And once he chooses, he typically leaves the other route in a one-on-one match up.

The delayed inside breaking route from the Z receiver is designed to get the cornerback to sit down on the route.

Because the FS has to cover so much ground in support, the QB can use his eyes to direct the free safety to one side of the field before throwing back to the other vertical route.  This is what announcers mean when they discuss QBs controlling safeties with their eyes.  Look early in the pass drop to the X receiver’s route before throwing to the slot WR.  Or look the FS to the slot WR before throwing the Corner route to the X receiver.

________

So, as you can see, the "z receiver" is a decoy; literally not for any other reason than to get the cornerback to sit on the route. We have already established that QBs don't change up the passing concept on the spot because that simply never makes sense. So, the correct read was anyone but Funchess, because there's no game-book out there on the slot-fade concept that tells you to throw to the z receiver.

Here's an example of how it's executed from the Eagles. Same exact play, except the outside corner stayed with his assignment and didn't do what Butler did.

Panthers ran the exact same thing. Funchess is a decoy and not part of the QBs read. Byrd is in the slot designed to beat the press. Patriots are in cover 1 with a single high safety up top.

https://streamable.com/qwpqd

Cam goes for his only read, which is Byrd. He looks left to draw the high safety and then throws the ball, as per his reads require him to do so. Malcolm Butler ad-libbed and made a good play on the ball. Cam still made the right read and decision due to the concept.

As i said, unless you got inside access to the coaches and players you do not know Byrd was Cams only read. 

God help us if we a calling one man reads (a low % fade route at that) on 3rd down. No way I am believing that. 

The only thing you have done her is break down a concept of a play which can have any number of reads / progressions. 

So yes, you are wrong, and no matter how much you say it Cam was never supposed to throw to the z receiver, and i'd guarantee you every other elite NFL qb would do the same. 

No I am not wrong as the only way for me to be wrong is if you know exactly what Cam's progression was for that play which you don't. 

What Cam's reads SHOULD have been was one of those zig routes, then KB's post, then byrds fade. with Funch as a check down.

You are wrong by default as Byrd was doubled covered. So that is never the right read. 

 

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yeah not gonna argue any further. clearly don't know what you're talking about.

i love how it went to "oh but you don't know if that was Cam's only read u aren't part of the coaching staff" as if that makes me unknowledgable about one of the more common plays in football.

i mean it's pretty obvious that's a slot fade concept. not exactly something you'd need inside knowledge to figure out and how it works.

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2 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

yeah not gonna argue any further. clearly don't know what you're talking about.

Coming from the guy who says he knows Cam's reads when he has no access to coaches, meetings, playbooks, players etc. 

Gotcha

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