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Mayor Bloomberg: "God was not with this plane the way he was with the other..."


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#16 cookinwithgas

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 07:51 AM

Joseph Smith?

#17 Zod

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 11:44 AM

What I find vexing is that god gave us a brain capable of powers deduction and reasoning yet expects us to throw all of it out the window to believe he exists. Pretty mean trick!

#18 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 01:17 PM

Seems to me there is a tremendous obsession with religion on this board recently. Most of it started by those who don't care for religion very much. Seems to be a very unhealthy obsession.

#19 pstall

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 01:18 PM

What I find vexing is that god gave us a brain capable of powers deduction and reasoning yet expects us to throw all of it out the window to believe he exists. Pretty mean trick!


Two things. One, can we lay off the word vexing? Thats so 2008.
Secondly, can you show me a passage in the bible where God says for us to throw our mental capacities out the window and become total zombies.
I will buy you lunch at your favorite spot. :piggy:

stwall said some great stuff earlier.
He even use to have this passage in his sig and it totally applies here.

#20 Delhomeboy

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 01:23 PM

One of the biggest half-truths out there is "God wants me to be happy." God wants you to have fulfilling life, but if all he wanted was for you to be happy, then you could, logically, do all sorts of evil things and justify them b/c "God wanted me to be happy."


The other thing I wonder is if God wants us to live more like Christ, then why didn't he say so (or send Him down) at the beginning? In the Old Testament, people held slaves, had sex with their daughters, all kinds of groovy stuff, and God didn't seem to mind that as long as they were working for Him.

Then suddenly people are supposed to turn the other cheek, live in poverty like Christ, all that stuff - for an all powerful being, God seems to be stuck in a very human like time vs. decision loop.


Many people get stuck looking at the Old Testament Law from a purely religious standpoint, when it also needs to be looked at from a historical standpoint. The two books that deal only with Law, (Leviticus and Deutoronomy[I probably spelled that wrong] were set up to help a brand new, fledgling civilization function accordingly, and to set itself up for lasting survival in a very harsh world.

#21 stwall

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 01:34 PM

Two things. One, can we lay off the word vexing? Thats so 2008.
Secondly, can you show me a passage in the bible where God says for us to throw our mental capacities out the window and become total zombies.
I will buy you lunch at your favorite spot. :piggy:

stwall said some great stuff earlier.
He even use to have this passage in his sig and it totally applies here.


Thanks bro.

Do you mean 1 Corinthians 1:18
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

#22 cookinwithgas

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 06:02 PM

One of the biggest half-truths out there is "God wants me to be happy." God wants you to have fulfilling life, but if all he wanted was for you to be happy, then you could, logically, do all sorts of evil things and justify them b/c "God wanted me to be happy."




Many people get stuck looking at the Old Testament Law from a purely religious standpoint, when it also needs to be looked at from a historical standpoint. The two books that deal only with Law, (Leviticus and Deutoronomy[I probably spelled that wrong] were set up to help a brand new, fledgling civilization function accordingly, and to set itself up for lasting survival in a very harsh world.


The whole thing needs to be looked at that way. As books setup to rule Man. What better way to do it than take the elements of the older religions that worked, promise people a great afterlife even though they only suffer here, and that their leaders have God on their side?

#23 Delhomeboy

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 07:24 PM

The whole thing needs to be looked at that way. As books setup to rule Man.


It's a slippery thing to claim the "whole thing" needs to be looked at that way, because the entire second half is only about the fulfillment of the laws of the first, and as such, the ability to save yourself by following the medium of that fulfillment. Likewise, much of the first half (Old Testament) is merely a history. The only two books that deal with the "Law" are the ones I mentioned before.

What better way to do it than take the elements of the older religions that worked, promise people a great afterlife even though they only suffer here, and that their leaders have God on their side?


The wonderful thing about Christianity is that it did not come from older religions that worked, not in its broader sense. The base of Christianity is, of course, Judaism. And yes, some parts of Judaism stemmed from even more ancient religions. However, Judaism introduced a brand new concept into religion, that of monotheism. Judaism was the first monotheistic religion on Earth, and also the first to base its system on ethics, on the acceptance of people.

Now here's the interesting thing. After the first five books you have, like I said, a history of events, and what's important to note is the struggle people have in conforming to God's law. Many people point to the Bible and say, why would God sanction this, when many events in the Bible weren't sanctioned by God, and were instead made by men who were TRYING to find God's will, sometimes failing miserably. It's the growing pains that lead to a message of salvation.

#24 2jakefansinva

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 08:22 PM

Apparently God and the plane were set on autopilot that day.

#25 beach

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 09:12 PM

Why are we trying to include the idea of a supreme being controlling humankind into a plane crash? We build the planes the pilots/computers are flying, we create the mess, then as always: we look for clarification & closure.

#26 stwall

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 01:46 AM

Why are we trying to include the idea of a supreme being controlling humankind into a plane crash? We build the planes the pilots/computers are flying, we create the mess, then as always: we look for clarification & closure.



It's only natural to question your belief when faced with a tragedy. Whether that tragedy is a close one like one of your loved ones dieing or a distant one like the plan crashes. I think it's a good thing to reevaluate your belief every now and then. It's healthy like exercises.

#27 cookinwithgas

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 08:55 AM

Why are we trying to include the idea of a supreme being controlling humankind into a plane crash? We build the planes the pilots/computers are flying, we create the mess, then as always: we look for clarification & closure.


If you are correct, then prayer is indeed useless.

#28 Matt Foley

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 09:00 AM

If you are correct, then prayer is indeed useless.


Is not. :mad:

#29 2jakefansinva

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 09:06 AM

Prayer is just a warm blanket.

#30 cookinwithgas

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 09:13 AM

It's a slippery thing to claim the "whole thing" needs to be looked at that way, because the entire second half is only about the fulfillment of the laws of the first, and as such, the ability to save yourself by following the medium of that fulfillment. Likewise, much of the first half (Old Testament) is merely a history. The only two books that deal with the "Law" are the ones I mentioned before.



The wonderful thing about Christianity is that it did not come from older religions that worked, not in its broader sense. The base of Christianity is, of course, Judaism. And yes, some parts of Judaism stemmed from even more ancient religions. However, Judaism introduced a brand new concept into religion, that of monotheism. Judaism was the first monotheistic religion on Earth, and also the first to base its system on ethics, on the acceptance of people.

Now here's the interesting thing. After the first five books you have, like I said, a history of events, and what's important to note is the struggle people have in conforming to God's law. Many people point to the Bible and say, why would God sanction this, when many events in the Bible weren't sanctioned by God, and were instead made by men who were TRYING to find God's will, sometimes failing miserably. It's the growing pains that lead to a message of salvation.


No, no, you are not getting it. Judiasm and monoethism is not what I am talking about.

http://www.religious...g/chr_jcpa1.htm

http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm

It's great that Judiasm changed from several gods to one, but it's still the same old same old. And Christianity based itself off of that.

Looking at it rationally and from a historical perspective, it is clear that religions of ancient cultures changed with the times and the needs of the people and more importantly, their leaders. When we have more information at hand to decide, most of us can see that Mormonism is just kind of wierd, and Scientology is a construct of a science fiction writer. Put each of these beliefs a couple of thousand years in the past and suddenly the rational explanations fade and all that is left is the faith part. Likewise, looking at ancient religions, we know from simple scientific study that the Sun is not a person living in the sky.

Christianity falls between these two extremes - we've had lots of scientific evidence that for example, the Earth is not the center of the universe or even unique to the galaxy in terms of it's ability to support life. We know that the Earth was not created in the explained time frame as described by the Bible. At the same time, we do know that locations mentioned in the Bible do or did exist (but not all). Christians either rationalize or trivialize this knowledge, or stick to it like a rabid dog depending on their need to have absolute "truth". They attempt to hamper further scientific knowledge because of it - Creationists are todays equivalent of the people that sought to silence Galileo and his fellow scientists for simply asking questions.

The idea that a person can claim that half of the Bible is simply stories to guide an older civilization (while of course, the important things like parting the Red Sea and all that) are true, and that the second half of the book is somehow absolute in its correctness, is just a bit off kilter to me.


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