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#31 Fiz

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 05:56 PM

I don't think you know much about HSAs. HSAs have a yearly maximum expense out of the account. After that, the insurance company usually pays 100%. It's a true crisis model system.

After that, the insurance company usually pays 100%. It's a true crisis model system.

the insurance company usually pays 100%.

lol

HSAs are a joke, and the only thing keeping that joke from being told is the fact that there is no long term study done for it due to it being relatively new.

My whole family pretty much is in public health, and this is the main problem with HSAs. If you're a young, relatively healthy guy, you think it's a great deal. you don't have to pay for much at all, and you only put in the money you want. On top of that, you're actually investing all the funds.

However, of course, since this is your money, it's going to dissuade you from any preventative care that you don't immediately see a need for, like yearly check ups, blood tests, injuries that you're just going to "walk off." this is sorta amplified by the fact that the majority of people who have these (young, low risk) lead a pretty unhealthy lifestyle. They generally at least drink, and a good portion smoke. no one in this country eats healthy food. they generally work too much so they're stressed out, etc etc

eventually these problems that they're ignoring because they want to save money are going to blossom into much larger problems. nagging coughs become emphysema, high blood pressure becomes hypertension, that damn wrist injury turns into arthritis, etc.

now those are all extreme examples, of course, and im not saying that you particularly do all of those things. however, even if you didn't, you couldn't honestly say that you don't know people that do. that you don't have friends or family that you can tell are going to need intensive medical treatment at some point in their lives.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's essentially a system that runs fundamentally counter to what pretty much all healthcare officials say is needed, which is an emphasis on preventative medicine. like i said earlier, there's not a lot of information due to them being relatively new, but we can take what we know from other things and make pretty a good hypothesis of how it's going to turn out, and that is that HSA are almost certainly going to cost more money in the long run.

Edited by Fiz, 15 February 2009 - 06:00 PM.


#32 Jase

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 06:43 PM

The insurance company DOES pay 100%. Dunno why I said usually.

I think we've argued before about forced preventative healthcare vs. crisis model before. It's a difference of opinion.

I personally think that it's a great idea for me to save my insurance money while I'm young and healthy for a day in the future when I'm middle aged and have high blood pressure and arthritis. It's the way insurance was initially intended to be.

And if a person puts off preventative care, that's his own fault. Of course I'm always in favor of restoring responsibility and self-reliance to the individual. Call me old fashioned, whatever.

Preventative care shouldn't be forced on people.

The point about it costing more money in the long run -- are you sure? Future Value > Present Value. $5000 in your pocket now is worth more than a promise of $5000 tomorrow, without even counting interest.

If I spend $200/month in preventative care, how can you tell me that 20 years down the road when the present value of that money is in the hundreds of thousands, that it will have saved me that amount of money in crisis treatment? There isn't even close to a guarantee of prevention from constant medical care... in fact, real-life statistics indicate the opposite, that if you're predisposed to get heart disease, chances are you're going to get it, and all the preventative care in the world won't stop it.

So to conclude:

HSA -

Pros: Supply side solution, economically solvent, less socialized and therefore usually less expensive for most consumers and more efficient for the system. Encourages people to take responsibility for their own health. Individuals can spend their money on any health related service they want including alternative meds or new technology.

Cons: Discourages preventative care; if one is very sick, deductibles and premiums skyrocket. Keeps more healthy "donor" insurance payers out of the more social system, creating higher costs for everyone in regular insurance.

Traditional healthcare with emphasis on preventative medicine: (government controlled or not)

Pros: Demand side solution, offers individuals easy access to their own health status. More of the cost of healthcare is hidden from the individual. Higher demand for doctors and thus better pay and more job security for them.

Cons: Because much of the cost of healthcare is hidden from the individual, often the individuals feel entitled to more care than they need. This increases demand on the system and increases cost for everyone.

Consumer ends up paying more every year. Individuals usually cannot use their insurance to pay for alternate medication and usually has limited doctor visits every year. If one gets sick, deductibles and premiums skyrocket.


Even when looking at the specifics, HSA still looks like a winner to me.

If your family is in healthcare, I can see why they don't like it. It utimately takes money and job security from them.

(PS... my wife's been coughing this week, better take her to the doctor before it turns to emphysema ;))

Edited by Jase, 15 February 2009 - 08:13 PM.


#33 Guest_CatofWar_*

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 07:30 PM

I think I came to grip with what fiz is saying. We need big government to get even bigger. They, the government, can fug up things six ways from Sunday, but they should be in charge of our health. Yeah, they know best!

#34 Fiz

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 07:30 PM

[quote name='Jase']
And if a person puts off preventative care, that's his own fault. Of course I'm always in favor of restoring responsibility and self-reliance to the individual. Call me old fashioned, whatever.[/quote]
it doesn't matter whos fault it is. the society and government will bear the burden when they can't pay.
[quote]Preventative care shouldn't be forced on people.[/quote]
where did I say it should be?

it should definitely be encouraged, however, since that's ultimately cheaper and more efficient.
[quote]The point about it costing more money in the long run -- are you sure? Future Value > Present Value. $5000 in your pocket now is worth more than a promise of $5000 tomorrow, without even counting interest.
[/quote]
health care costs increase almost geometrically as a problem worsens. if you don't understand that then, well, there's not much I can do for you. the rise in healthcare costs in this country is outpacing inflation for christ's sake.

also if you're going to try to tell me you can put dollar value on a healthy life, then you're f*cking out of your mind. since you're using extreme examples, are you really going to feel good when you can afford to have your legs amputated after the pancreatic cancer you never had detected because you refused to spend the small amount of money on a check up ravishes your digestive, reproductive, digestive and neuromuscular systems?
[quote]If I spend $200/month in preventative care, how can you tell me that 20 years down the road when the present value of that money is in the hundreds of thousands, that it will have saved me that amount of money in crisis treatment? There isn't even close to a guarantee of prevention from constant medical care... [/quote]
of course there isn't. however, yearly check ups are going to be able to spot something earlier, and the earlier you can spot something the more likely you're going to be able to treat it successfully and at less cost to you and your family.
[quote]in fact, real-life statistics indicate the opposite, that if you're predisposed to get heart disease, chances are you're going to get it, and all the preventative care in the world won't stop it.[/quote]
oh whelp can't do anything to make it better.

/smokes cigaretts
/drinks
/becomes huge burden on family when money he thinks was enough vanishes after first year of treatment
[quote]Pros: Supply side solution, economically solvent, less socialized and therefore usually less expensive for most consumers and more efficient for the system. [/quote]
meaningless republican talking point? check
banal use of the word socialized? check
gross generalizations without supporting evidence? check
loose reference to a "system?" check
[quote]Encourages people to take responsibility for their own health. [/quote]
this assumes any disease is a rational actor which is ludicrous. if you believe you can completely insulate yourself from illness just by having responsibility you're out of your mind.
[quote]Individuals can spend their money on any health related service they want including alternative meds or new technology.[/quote]
ahh yes, the greatest red herring of them all; choice. why do people think they're more able to decide what's best for them than a doctor, especially when we're dealing with knowledge that takes the smartest people our society has about a decade to learn?

Traditional healthcare with emphasis on preventative medicine: (government controlled or not)
[quote]More of the cost of healthcare is hidden from the individual.[/quote]
this is patently untrue

like i already said, american pay more in healthcare related taxes than any country in the world.
[quote]Higher demand for doctors and thus better pay and more job security for them.[/quote]
this isn't true at all. doctors abroad get paid significantly less (though still significantly more than the rest of the population) abroad than they do in the states. this is due to numerous factors. however, if you think doctors have a problem with job security in this country, you couldn't be more wrong.

also payscale for doctors varies so wildly between specialization that it's really a useless metric for anything and difficult to apply, unless you want to compare what an oncologist in france makes compared to an oncologist in california.
[quote]Cons: Because much of the cost of healthcare is hidden from the individual, often the individuals feel entitled to more care than they need.[/quote]
just your opinion that you can't prove.
[quote]This increases demand on the system and increases cost for everyone. [/quote]
ludicrous statement not supported by easily available and overwhelming facts and observation
[quote]Consumer ends up paying more every year.[/quote]
seriously do you know anything about this at all.
[quote]Individuals usually cannot use their insurance to pay for alternate medication and usually has limited doctor visits every year.[/quote]
neither one of these is true at all.

for example, in france, spain, sweden, etc, you can see any doctor as many times a year that you need. access to specialty medicine is not a problem in cities. once you get out, it becomes a problem, not unlike here in the states where a small town in deer f*ck iowa doesn't have an acupuncturist.

also, the term "alternative medicine" is needlessly obtuse and pretty worthless. if you have a specific one you don't think is available list it and i'll gladly prove you wrong.
[quote]If one gets sick, deductibles and premiums skyrocket.[/quote]
skyrocketing premiums you say? GOD FORBID!

also you're wrong...again
[quote]Even when looking at the specifics, HSA still looks like a winner to me.[/quote]
these aren't specifics at all. you're amazingly misinformed.

[quote]If you're family is in healthcare, I can see why they don't like it. It utimately takes money and job security from them.[/quote]
this isn't true at all.

they're in administration, and people like you insure that there will always be a need for intensive geriatric care services.

Edited by Fiz, 15 February 2009 - 07:34 PM.


#35 Fiz

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 07:32 PM

I think I came to grip with what fiz is saying. We need big government to get even bigger. They, the government, can f*ck up things six ways from Sunday, but they should be in charge of our health. Yeah, they know best!


the only governmental organization that receives sufficient funding at the moment is the military

shut up you child

Edited by Fiz, 15 February 2009 - 07:50 PM.


#36 Guest_CatofWar_*

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 07:44 PM

the only governmental organization that receives significant funding at the moment is the military

shut up you child


Actually, most of our tax money goes to income security, at 22%. Only 20% of tax money goes to our protection (national defense and public safety). That's in a tie with health care (medicaid and medicare).

Who's your daddy?

#37 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 07:48 PM

About 50% of the federal budget right now goes to entitlements I think.

#38 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 07:50 PM

Posted Image

#39 Fiz

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 07:50 PM

fuuuuuuuck i meant to say sufficient not significant.

oh no the man child will take my malapropism as a victory whatever will i do

#40 Jase

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 08:06 PM

it doesn't matter whos fault it is. the society and government will bear the burden when they can't pay.

where did I say it should be?

it should definitely be encouraged, however, since that's ultimately cheaper and more efficient.

health care costs increase almost geometrically as a problem worsens. if you don't understand that then, well, there's not much I can do for you. the rise in healthcare costs in this country is outpacing inflation for christ's sake.

also if you're going to try to tell me you can put dollar value on a healthy life, then you're f*cking out of your mind. since you're using extreme examples, are you really going to feel good when you can afford to have your legs amputated after the pancreatic cancer you never had detected because you refused to spend the small amount of money on a check up ravishes your digestive, reproductive, digestive and neuromuscular systems?

of course there isn't. however, yearly check ups are going to be able to spot something earlier, and the earlier you can spot something the more likely you're going to be able to treat it successfully and at less cost to you and your family.

oh whelp can't do anything to make it better.

/smokes cigaretts
/drinks
/becomes huge burden on family when money he thinks was enough vanishes after first year of treatment

meaningless republican talking point? check
banal use of the word socialized? check
gross generalizations without supporting evidence? check
loose reference to a "system?" check

this assumes any disease is a rational actor which is ludicrous. if you believe you can completely insulate yourself from illness just by having responsibility you're out of your mind.

ahh yes, the greatest red herring of them all; choice. why do people think they're more able to decide what's best for them than a doctor, especially when we're dealing with knowledge that takes the smartest people our society has about a decade to learn?

Traditional healthcare with emphasis on preventative medicine: (government controlled or not)

this is patently untrue

like i already said, american pay more in healthcare related taxes than any country in the world.

this isn't true at all. doctors abroad get paid significantly less (though still significantly more than the rest of the population) abroad than they do in the states. this is due to numerous factors. however, if you think doctors have a problem with job security in this country, you couldn't be more wrong.

also payscale for doctors varies so wildly between specialization that it's really a useless metric for anything and difficult to apply, unless you want to compare what an oncologist in france makes compared to an oncologist in california.

just your opinion that you can't prove.

ludicrous statement not supported by easily available and overwhelming facts and observation

seriously do you know anything about this at all.

neither one of these is true at all.

for example, in france, spain, sweden, etc, you can see any doctor as many times a year that you need. access to specialty medicine is not a problem in cities. once you get out, it becomes a problem, not unlike here in the states where a small town in deer f*ck iowa doesn't have an acupuncturist.

also, the term "alternative medicine" is needlessly obtuse and pretty worthless. if you have a specific one you don't think is available list it and i'll gladly prove you wrong.

skyrocketing premiums you say? GOD FORBID!

also you're wrong...again

these aren't specifics at all. you're amazingly misinformed.


this isn't true at all.

they're in administration, and people like you insure that there will always be a need for intensive geriatric care services.


That's an awfully long post for a response that barely addresses anything in the direction of my main points.

You slam the generalizations I've made from what I've seen, but fail to provide any pertinent specifics of your own.

But then I'm not surprised - I've noticed you're very talented at going on long diatribes telling people how wrong they are, but with very little actual information or some semblance of a logical stream of consciousness at your back.

Congrats at looking smart to the casual skimmer, while those of us with half a peck of reading comprehension are laughing at you.

Can you do anything but sniff like a petulant child and tell us how wrong we are?

It's become very obvious to me that there is very much about this world that you don't know. But within the confines of your closed mind, I know the illusion persists otherwise.

How about we agree to disagree? I'll keep my HSA, and you can keep your crappy insurance. I get to pay for my health problems, and you get to pay for your health problems plus all of the health problems of the fat asthmatic blobs around you.

In 50 years we'll meet and see who is healthier and wealthier. :)

#41 Fiz

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 08:19 PM

You slam the generalizations I've made from what I've seen, but fail to provide any pertinent specifics of your own.

actually i posted this

you could have read it. i doubt you will since you're apparently comfortable forming an opinion from a place of low information, and ignoring it when it's presented to you.

Congrats at looking smart to the casual skimmer, while those of us with half a peck of reading comprehension are laughing at you.

guess you need more than half a peck to notice an obvious hyperlink.

How about we agree to disagree? I'll keep my HSA, and you can keep your crappy insurance. I get to pay for my health problems, and you get to pay for your health problems plus all of the health problems of the fat asthmatic blobs around you.

once again, you're paying more in healthcare taxes per person than any other country in the oecm. do you realize what this means?

you can read all about it here. this is an effort read though.

#42 Delhommey

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 08:24 PM

BTW basing your opinions about universal health care on the VA is like basing your opinion of American cusine on MRE's.

#43 Jase

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 08:34 PM

actually i posted this

you could have read it. i doubt you will since you're apparently comfortable forming an opinion from a place of low information, and ignoring it when it's presented to you.

guess you need more than half a peck to notice an obvious hyperlink.

once again, you're paying more in healthcare taxes per person than any other country in the oecm. do you realize what this means?

you can read all about it here. this is an effort read though.


Once again, I said pertinent. You still have yet to provide anything to support your argument, your links do not support your opposition; I can post a link and tell you you're wrong, too:

http://www.wikihow.com/Macrame You're wrong! Ha!

Don't worry. Your google searches sure are a place of high information, and places like, oh, books maybe, are places of low information. Only in Fiz world.

I'll let you have the last word on this, because I know that there are 2 things important to teh fiz: 1) Being right in his own mind, and 2) having the last word.

Edited by Jase, 15 February 2009 - 08:39 PM.


#44 Fiz

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 08:38 PM

Once again, I said pertinent. You still have yet to provide anything to support your argument, your links do not support your opposition; I can post a link and tell you you're wrong, too:


lol everything i said is covered in those things.

i mean what specifically do you think is not included?

I'll let you have the last word on this, because I know that there are 2 things important to teh fiz: 1) Being right in his own mind, and 2) having the last word.

oh yay pitifully transparent hand waving by pretending to be above the fray

Edited by Fiz, 15 February 2009 - 08:40 PM.


#45 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 08:51 PM

BTW basing your opinions about universal health care on the VA is like basing your opinion of American cusine on MRE's.


But basing it on Military medical care (which is different from the VA) does have some useful parallels.


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