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Troy Davis ....

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Posted

Two completely different cases. The protests in this case do not have to come down to whether or not you believe in the death penalty. It's the application of the death penalty in this particular case, presumably amid such doubt. Nice try, though.

Consider this: Lawrence Brewer, James' Byrd's murderer and "Super Whitey" that you're referring to, said yesterday "As far as any regrets, no, I have no regrets. No, I'd do it all over again, to tell you the truth." Please try to convince anyone that the two cases should be viewed in the same light. Appeals to opinions about capital punishment not necessary.

There's a reason it's called the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crime Prevention Act.

I know you're probably trying to make a point, whatever that may be, but you didn't succeed in anything but conflating two very different applications of the death penalty.

Hate crimes lol......yeah, emotion makes it "worse"......

Anyway, if we could say that its worth it to leave scum like Brewer alive, then there would never have been a threat to a guy like Davis. Continually rationalizing the power of execution by saying "well this other asshole really deserved it" leads us to nights like tonight.

Don't know if that's an appeal to an opinion on capital punishment or not, but its what I'm gonna go with.

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Posted

Sorry, I just don't think there is a sense of closure anytime someone is put to death for a crime. I'm no expert on the case itself, but what makes it worse is that there appeared to still be a reasonable doubt when it came to Davis' role in the crime.

It's just sad...

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Posted

For argument's sake, whether or not anyone believes in the death penalty is irrelevant to what happened tonight. Currently, the penalty of capital punishment is a legally available sentence in capital muder cases in some states with Georgia being one of them. Trying to debate the justness of capital punishment itself is, as relates to Troy Davis, a mute (not moot) point.

To the extent that capital punishment is a legal remedy that was pursued and given in Troy Davis' case, the question isn't "should we use the death penalty?" rather it becomes "should we use the death penalty in cases where doubt is present?" I realize that instantiation of "doubt" is rather vague, so let me clarify. By doubt, I'm not referring to cases where the accused has openly admitted guilt completely uncoerced or where there is clear and convincing, substantive evidence (see: Lawrence Brewer) as to the guilt of the accused. By doubt I mean cases including, but not limited to that of Troy Davis, where the bulk of evidence is a reliance on eye-witness testimony and lacking any or all substantial scientific, forensic merit. To be honest, it's a shame that eye-witness testimony is so higly regarded in the USCJ system, because any psychologist worth their bachelor's degree will tell you that eye-witness testimony is so unreliable as to be laughable. Ever play the telephone game in 5th grade? Yeah, now you see what I mean.

Bring in the recantations of 7 out of 9 witnesses that were initially central to the conviction and you have a considerably more severe sense of "doubt."

There have even been jurors to come out and say if they knew during the trail what they know now, Davis would never have been convicted in the first place.

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Posted

For argument's sake, whether or not anyone believes in the death penalty is irrelevant to what happened tonight. Currently, the penalty of capital punishment is a legally available sentence in capital muder cases in some states with Georgia being one of them. Trying to debate the justness of capital punishment itself is, as relates to Troy Davis, a mute (not moot) point.

To the extent that capital punishment is a legal remedy that was pursued and given in Troy Davis' case, the question isn't "should we use the death penalty?" rather it becomes "should we use the death penalty in cases where doubt is present?" I realize that instantiation of "doubt" is rather vague, so let me clarify. By doubt, I'm not referring to cases where the accused has openly admitted guilt completely uncoerced or where there is clear and convincing, substantive evidence (see: Lawrence Brewer) as to the guilt of the accused. By doubt I mean cases including, but not limited to that of Troy Davis, where the bulk of evidence is a reliance on eye-witness testimony and lacking any or all substantial scientific, forensic merit. To be honest, it's a shame that eye-witness testimony is so higly regarded in the USCJ system, because any psychologist worth their bachelor's degree will tell you that eye-witness testimony is so unreliable as to be laughable. Ever play the telephone game in 5th grade? Yeah, now you see what I mean.

That's why it typically takes decades for inmates on death row to be executed. The court makes sure all the defendant's appeals can be exhausted and all the evidence does not leave any reasonable doubt whatsoever that said defendant committed the crime. Only then are they executed.

As I said, I find this particular case saddening because it appears that there were many reasons to doubt that Troy Davis deserved the death penalty.

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Posted

I'm, for the life of me, struggling to figure out how so many people could have gotten it so wrong.

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Posted

For argument's sake, whether or not anyone believes in the death penalty is irrelevant to what happened tonight. Currently, the penalty of capital punishment is a legally available sentence in capital muder cases in some states with Georgia being one of them. Trying to debate the justness of capital punishment itself is, as relates to Troy Davis, a mute (not moot) point.

To the extent that capital punishment is a legal remedy that was pursued and given in Troy Davis' case, the question isn't "should we use the death penalty?" rather it becomes "should we use the death penalty in cases where doubt is present?" I realize that instantiation of "doubt" is rather vague, so let me clarify. By doubt, I'm not referring to cases where the accused has openly admitted guilt completely uncoerced or where there is clear and convincing, substantive evidence (see: Lawrence Brewer) as to the guilt of the accused. By doubt I mean cases including, but not limited to that of Troy Davis, where the bulk of evidence is a reliance on eye-witness testimony and lacking any or all substantial scientific, forensic merit. To be honest, it's a shame that eye-witness testimony is so higly regarded in the USCJ system, because any psychologist worth their bachelor's degree will tell you that eye-witness testimony is so unreliable as to be laughable. Ever play the telephone game in 5th grade? Yeah, now you see what I mean.

Bring in the recantations of 7 out of 9 witnesses that were initially central to the conviction and you have a considerably more severe sense of "doubt."

There have even been jurors to come out and say if they knew during the trail what they know now, Davis would never have been convicted in the first place.

Well, he was guilty at the time.

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Posted

Big shock. Pro-bono lawyers will do that to you. Why does his first guilty verdict have any bearing on what I said?

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Posted

How in the 9 hells can eyewitness testimony alone send you to death row?? far too much reasonable doubt with nothing else to present as evidence.

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Posted

Big shock. Pro-bono lawyers will do that to you. Why does his first guilty verdict have any bearing on what I said?

Its going to be really hard to explain that without expressing an opinion on the nature of capital punishment itself.

The burden of proof at the time of his trial found him to be guilty in the opinion of 12 of his peers. He was sentenced to death. After the fact, the proof became questionable. However, in the eyes of the courts, the case was never made that he was proven to instead be innocent. As such, the original sentence was carried out after the full appeals process ended.

The revelations and recantations after the fact may have been enough to cast a reasonable doubt on his guilt, but his guilt had already been established under law.

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Posted

Terrible system to decide life or death.

Hopefully some people are feeling ashamed tonight.

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Posted

Its going to be really hard to explain that without expressing an opinion on the nature of capital punishment itself.

The burden of proof at the time of his trial found him to be guilty in the opinion of 12 of his peers. He was sentenced to death. After the fact, the proof became questionable. However, in the eyes of the courts, the case was never made that he was proven to instead be innocent. As such, the original sentence was carried out after the full appeals process ended.

The revelations and recantations after the fact may have been enough to cast a reasonable doubt on his guilt, but his guilt had already been established under law.

I think everything you said is correct and accurate. Judge Moore, who heard the appeal of the case, wrote in his opinion that the recantations only provided "minimal doubt." My argument, and the argument of many of Davis' supporters, is that any doubt whatsoever should be grounds on which to commute a death sentence. And that's even if the death sentence is exchanged for life w/o the possibility of parole and even if the guilty verdict is confirmed.

Edit: I don't really mean to say any doubt whatsoever, but any doubt that can be corroborated in a court of law. I'm not trying to say that if Davis' mother thinks he didn't do it, his death sentence should be commuted.

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Posted

What a pooty world we live in.

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