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#76 Tarheels23

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:19 PM

Yeah it's funny how everyone chooses to conveniently ignore Cam's rushing TD's.

#77 mav1234

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:24 PM

I don't think they are "ignored," as they are typically mentioned whenever anyone talks about his accomplishments, but the fact is that at least some of them likely could have happened with Stew of DWill too. They are somewhat different in that they are not "passing" touchdowns which are typically how people measure the ability of a quarterback to get the ball in the endzone.

However, Cam is as much a part of our rushing offense as those guys are.

That's why I may be willing to buy that Dalton is a better pure passer(and fwiw, not totally sold on this), but that doesn't make him a better quarterback at all. There is more than just passing the ball involved with being a quarterback, and Cam is far from deficient as far as his abilities int hat area go. He still has things to work on, but EVERY quarterback does.

#78 Spaceballs83

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:37 PM

Only passes i have seen out of Dalton is the "dink and donk" passes of 10 yards and less. Doesn't Cam lead the NFL this year in completions greater that 20 yards???

#79 mav1234

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:39 PM

Only passes i have seen out of Dalton is the "dink and donk" passes of 10 yards and less. Doesn't Cam lead the NFL this year in completions greater that 20 yards???


Possible in passes that travel >20 yards, but he's below Brady, Brees, Rivers and Manning as far as "passes for 20+ yards." Still pretty nice.

Dalton has done more than "dink and dunk," btw. But he runs a very different offense.

#80 TheRealDeal

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:41 PM

Yeah it's funny how everyone chooses to conveniently ignore Cam's rushing TD's.


When talking about the "pure passer", ignoring rushing touchdowns is the only thing to do, right?

#81 TheRealDeal

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:41 PM

Only passes i have seen out of Dalton is the "dink and donk" passes of 10 yards and less. Doesn't Cam lead the NFL this year in completions greater that 20 yards???


You should watch more of his passes then.

#82 Spaceballs83

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:44 PM

i did. about 4-5 of his last games. He cannot throw the ball like Cam. Slant/Fade routes with an occasional streak or long throws. I have never seen him throw it like Cam does. Again doesnt Cam lead NFL in completed passes over 20 yards?

#83 mav1234

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:45 PM

When talking about the "pure passer", ignoring rushing touchdowns is the only thing to do, right?


even so, it is very difficult to compare the two. First of all, if you are talking about "pure passer" you have to completely throw out the "he just wins" argument, which means you'd have to focus on how they play the game. Since I doubt many of us have watched Dalton as much as Cam, that might be difficult. Stats are a poor substitute, and Cam's are pretty much just plain out better for a rookie. Mechanically, I think Dalton looks better but I have not seen nearly as much as I have of Cam, and Cam has come a hell of a long way from where he was before the season started.

If you talk about how they function in games, Cam has shown the ability to move the offense with just his arm pretty well. However, he is more effective when he uses his legs to extend plays. And tbh, Dalton actually scrambles as well, but obviously he is not as effective as Cam.

If you try to compare stats, you run into a world of problems due to the differences in offense and personnel each works with along with the defenses they have played. However, despite those difficulties I do think Cam's numbers were more impressive all things considered. Dalton had a great year and any other year he'd be the toast of the rookie class, but the reality is that Cam got it done with both his legs and his arm this year in a truly remarkable way IMO.

Now, I don't think that means he's "arrived" and is now a top 5 QB or whatever, but overall he was easily one of the most impressive rookie quarterbacks *ever.*

Edited by mav1234, 18 January 2012 - 11:59 PM.


#84 I Mean He Was Found Guilty

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:47 PM

One of Dalton's main disadvantages when compared head to head to our own Cammy Cam is that he's not as tall and, as such, will occasionally be good for something like this:



#85 ed bell

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:48 PM

From a passing standpoint, of course you wouldn't factor in rushing TD's.. Have to keep in mind that his ability to run the ball in close proximety to the endzone influenced the red-zone play calling though. That probably took some passing TD opportunities away from Cam just like they took rushing TD opprtunities away from Double Trouble. Also, it's pretty hard to ignore a NFL record for rushing TD's in a season for a QB when you are talking about the ability level of a QB.

#86 mav1234

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:52 PM

i did. about 4-5 of his last games. He cannot throw the ball like Cam. Slant/Fade routes with an occasional streak or long throws. I have never seen him throw it like Cam does. Again doesnt Cam lead NFL in completed passes over 20 yards?


He may have lead the league in number of passes that travelled 21+ yards. He was above Rodgers, Brady, Rivers from a quick check but it's possible Romo or someone else was further up, but I doubt it. But really, I don't see what that means (for instance, Dalton threw more passes in the 31-40 yard range, and only 1 less pass in the 31-41+ range). Vertical offense = 11+ yards, which is why most of our passes travelled that far, yet we still had a huge number of passes around the line of scrimmage. For instance, Cam also threw more passes than Rodgers, Brady, Rivers behind the line of scrimmage and only a few less than Dalton (but if you adjust for % of throw, Dalton probably would go up quite a bit). Dalton also completed a higher percentage of his 11-20, 21-30, and 31-40 yard throws than Cam.

What's all that mean? Meh.

#87 panthers55

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:53 PM


That's why I may be willing to buy that Dalton is a better pure passer(and fwiw, not totally sold on this), but that doesn't make him a better quarterback at all. There is more than just passing the ball involved with being a quarterback, and Cam is far from deficient as far as his abilities int hat area go. He still has things to work on, but EVERY quarterback does.


How is he a better pure passer. When people think pure passer they think passer rating. Newton's is 5 points higher. Completion percentage even though Dalton played in a WCO with shorter easier passes was higher for Newton than Dalton. Newton's YPA was well over a yard better. First downs as a percentage of attempts was higher. More 20 yard passes, etc.

How in the world is he a better pure passer??

Edited by panthers55, 18 January 2012 - 08:04 PM.


#88 fieryprophet

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:57 PM

You should watch more of his passes then.


As a NFL Game Rewind subscriber, I have. Cam and Dalton are in different classes, particularly when it comes to "bucket" throws, where the ball has to drop in between two defenders. It's not that Dalton is inaccurate on these kinds of throws: he actually has no clue how to make them. He usually overthrows his target and forces them to leap for it when the ball is supposed drop into their basket, and if they don't get a handle on the pass it may end up picked. Cam, on the other hand, hits them with regularity (see vs. Washington, the pass thrown to LaFell the play before he ran in the TD.)

Dalton's specialties are slants and crossing routes. He displays great touch on passes within a horizontal window, and is more than adequate on downfield throws as long as he is not under pressure.

Cam, on the other hand, can make any throw, at any time, under any pressure, as long as he at least attempts to properly set his feet, and even sometimes when he doesn't. I'm not saying he always makes them, but he has shown the ability repeatedly to make passes that are far beyond the norm for any rookie passer, or anything Dalton has dreamed of attempting (a perfect example would be the 20-yard throw he made, on the run, with both feet off the ground at his release, to Steve Smith to move the chains against Houston despite heavy pressure from a free blitzer.)

You frankly have no fugging clue what you're talking about when it comes to either one, and basically rely on a couple of stats and rankings that you think say things they really don't say because you literally have no idea what actually happens in a football game and are only here because nobody loves you and you feel a desperate need for attention.

#89 I Mean He Was Found Guilty

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:05 PM

that reminds me i need to re-up my game rewind subscription. actual work on one monitor and more football than i could ever want on the other goes a long way.

#90 Marguide

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:17 PM

I remember after mid-season I watched the Bengals/Ravens game from start to finish. During the broadcast, they showed a stat that the Bengals had only scored after a drive of more than 80 yards two times. I don't know how many more they completed in the following 6 weeks, but it probably was not a bunch. On the other hand, we had many, many drives of 80 plus yards leading to a score.

So when some try to minimize the significance of Cam's 1 yard or 2 yard touchdown runs, just remember that he did much more work as a QB to even get there in the first place than a player like Dalton.


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