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Fundament Question: When is an embryo afflicted with original sin?


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#31 Cat

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 12:44 PM

But you can't have the NT without the OT.

Prophecy fulfilled.

And lest we not forget the god of the OT still required a blood sacrifice of his only begotten SON (or was it just Him manifest....yeah, other thread) for cryin' out loud.

Still pretty harsh.
Just forgive the sin. You are God. Does He feel He has something to prove? To his creations? Cripes. Just write a message in the sky.
"I'm God. I'm all powerful. You can do what you want because I love you but I'll hold you accountable so play nice. Love, God."

The end.

Instead we had to have another killing in His name.
And a Book written and re-written and edited to the whims of the moment and the politics of the times.
Great.

So it brings me personally back to the total rejection of Theism and a slightly open dialogue with Deism.

I'd choose Buddhism.




I'm still figuring out what to call myself, i could see it changing the more I learn and experiance life. Right now i call myself agnostic but there are days when my thoughts put me closer to a deist.

#32 Epistaxis

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 12:46 PM

^^Nectar of the Gods, if you will.

^@Cat- I'm a de facto Atheist. I can't rule out the existence of a creator, but the possibility of that creator resembling anything sold by the major world religions is nil, IMO.

Edited by Epistaxis, 21 May 2009 - 12:48 PM.


#33 PhillyB

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 01:37 PM

Original sin is something created by the Catholic church. Does NOT exist.
It's many of the reasons why people get thier babies baptized. Babys have NOT sinned. Don't know what sin is.
Not until a kid/young teen do they reach an age of accountability.
Original sin is a gigantic fallacy.


the doctrine of total depravity would suggest quite differently.

also i have yet to hear a proper argument for the ambiguous "age of accountability."

#34 Cat

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 01:48 PM

^^Nectar of the Gods, if you will.

^@Cat- I'm a de facto Atheist. I can't rule out the existence of a creator, but the possibility of that creator resembling anything sold by the major world religions is nil, IMO.



That actually sounds a lot like me. I do not see any evidence for a personal god.

I use the term god very loosely. the universe had a beginning and it came from something, whatever that something is i might call that god.

#35 Epistaxis

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:03 PM

http://atheism.about...ersonal-God.htm

#36 Cat

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:07 PM

http://atheism.about...ersonal-God.htm



thanks, I've read a little bit of what Einsteins thinks about god. But i'll give this a read too since i haven't come across it.

He has 2 quotes that are some of my favs

What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of "humility." This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism. (Albert Einstein)

and

If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. (Albert Einstein)

#37 Cat

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:10 PM

whats funny is that some of the christian books i read actually quote Einstein to support there christian beliefs. lol they of course took them totally out of context and if you don't know any better you just read it and take it as truth.

#38 Epistaxis

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:26 PM

I've told this story before, but it had such a profound effect on me I'll share it again.

I'll never forget my pre-pubescent family trip to the Smithsonian in DC.
We were in the room with all the different animal skeletons lined up behind glass cases.
I sat there with mouth agape for what had to be half an hour.
It was so clear.
The similarities. The differences. The specialization of limbs. Skull size.
I didn't get it ALL, but the seed had been planted. This wasn't Genesis. Adam and Eve. This was a natural process of selection. "All God's creatures", how different they look, really aren't that different. Conservation of basic form. It was right there before my eyes. He didn't make them one at a time, to inhabit His chosen environments. The environment dictated what would work and what wouldn't based on a platform that was successful.

It didn't flower for awhile. The conditioning set in motion by my family faith was strong enough to keep my clinging to Christianity. It was even strong enough to have me very involved in IVCF in college. Even a small group leader! Clearly I was overcompensating.

But somewhere along the line I could no longer fight what I knew to be true. Rationality overtook childlike acceptance.

My mom is still upset about it.
Don't even ask how she feels about my "unbaptized children".
lol

#39 Cat

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:38 PM

I've told this story before, but it had such a profound effect on me I'll share it again.

I'll never forget my pre-pubescent family trip to the Smithsonian in DC.
We were in the room with all the different animal skeletons lined up behind glass cases.
I sat there with mouth agape for what had to be half an hour.
It was so clear.
The similarities. The differences. The specialization of limbs. Skull size.
I didn't get it ALL, but the seed had been planted. This wasn't Genesis. Adam and Eve. This was a natural process of selection. "All God's creatures", how different they look, really aren't that different. Conservation of basic form. It was right there before my eyes. He didn't make them one at a time, to inhabit His chosen environments. The environment dictated what would work and what wouldn't based on a platform that was successful.

It didn't flower for awhile. The conditioning set in motion by my family faith was strong enough to keep my clinging to Christianity. It was even strong enough to have me very involved in IVCF in college. Even a small group leader! Clearly I was overcompensating.

But somewhere along the line I could no longer fight what I knew to be true. Rationality overtook childlike acceptance.

My mom is still upset about it.
Don't even ask how she feels about my "unbaptized children".
lol



great story. I can relate.

but my parents don't know...i'm too scared to tell them :(

#40 pstall

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 09:02 PM

the doctrine of total depravity would suggest quite differently.

also i have yet to hear a proper argument for the ambiguous "age of accountability."


Just show me some passages about being born into original sin.
Are you saying if a child is born and doesn't have time to get baptized its doomed?

Come on man.

#41 Cat

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 08:02 AM

what about those people in south America that live in the jungle and have 0 interaction with civilization are they doomed?



since you guys are talking about that stuff

#42 pstall

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 08:13 AM

what about those people in south America that live in the jungle and have 0 interaction with civilization are they doomed?



since you guys are talking about that stuff


This question is raised quite often.
It's much more rare nowadays, but it does exist, that someone is so remote that they don't get to hear about God or the bible etc.
Having said that, God isn't going to create someone then give them ZERO chance to change and that be it.

#43 PhillyB

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 09:21 AM

Just write a message in the sky.
"I'm God. I'm all powerful. You can do what you want because I love you but I'll hold you accountable so play nice. Love, God."

The end.


you still wouldn't listen

#44 PhillyB

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 09:24 AM

Just show me some passages about being born into original sin.
Are you saying if a child is born and doesn't have time to get baptized its doomed?

Come on man.


Romans 3:23: For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God.


I see no infantile clauses there.

(and the truth is, i don't know either way - i'm simply exploring the other end of the issue here. i don't see anything specific about it either way.)

#45 cookinwithgas

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 09:34 AM

This question is raised quite often.
It's much more rare nowadays, but it does exist, that someone is so remote that they don't get to hear about God or the bible etc.
Having said that, God isn't going to create someone then give them ZERO chance to change and that be it.


That's not really an answer.

Face it, if you are born in some remote mountain region in Tibet in 1800, you will never hear about all this Jesus stuff, and you are going to hell. This would prove pretty easily that God, if He exists, is not at all like the one so many people in the US are into, so lets just ignore that stuff.

I had a girlfriend a few years ago that I asked this very same question and her head about exploded, like she never bothered to stop and think about this simple question. It's like because she lived in Southern Baptist country and heard about it everyday, it was assumed that everyone on the planet had to go through the same thing.


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