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You fail at religion if:


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#16 beach

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 03:50 PM

A religion is an organization that holds beliefs. One can hold a personal belief system and not adhere to a religion. Its like people pick and choose between a handful of concrete groupthink networks just because they are there. So...religion fails because it is present. Beliefs should be projected through a different formula.

#17 Zod

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 03:59 PM

I still think the "faith" argument is a copout...

Faith in what?


Faith was invented as a way to get around that nasty independent and critical thinking people tend to do. If people start taking a good hard look, realized they are offered no real answers the powers that be stand to lose much of their money/influence. So, chalk it up to faith. Why does god allow children to be murdered and raped? Have faith that he knows what he is doing, but he loves them none the less.

Faith a huge rug to sweep the unwanted fallacies of religion under.

Book of Zod, Chapter 4, verse 7

#18 Inimicus

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 04:00 PM

What you just described is called blind faith. Not faith.

I think most atheists "understand" what you derive from being a believer. We get your reasons for believing in God.

Further, I was raised a Christian (like many atheists) so I've "had it."

The difference between you and me is that I channel that faith into myself and the people around me as opposed to having faith in some higher being that I do not know to exist. I have faith that I am good person, with strong morals, and a desire to live a good life filled with love and compassion for others. I have faith in myself to have the strength to meet today's challenges and tomorrow's unforeseen obstacles.

I find it to be much more productive and personally rewarding to have this faith in myself rather than in a higher power to provide these things for me.


Please don't presume to know what I get out of my faith. You've never spoken to me on this subject beyond these few words and my faith and what it means to me has never been fully expressed on this forum.

Blind faith is something that no one who knows me has ever accused me of. My faith is eyes wide open if its anything. I see the hypocrisy in my religion, I see the flaws in our scriptures, I condemn the corruption of our churches. Blind faith...NOT.

I put a great deal of effort into living a life worthy of my faith and trying to lead by example. BUT, you'll never find me in a church ('cept the occasional wedding or funeral) and the only time I quote scripture is to beat the sense into dogmatic and blinded sheep of the flock.

#19 mr beauxjangles

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 04:25 PM

Please don't presume to know what I get out of my faith. You've never spoken to me on this subject beyond these few words and my faith and what it means to me has never been fully expressed on this forum.

Blind faith is something that no one who knows me has ever accused me of. My faith is eyes wide open if its anything. I see the hypocrisy in my religion, I see the flaws in our scriptures, I condemn the corruption of our churches. Blind faith...NOT.

I put a great deal of effort into living a life worthy of my faith and trying to lead by example. BUT, you'll never find me in a church ('cept the occasional wedding or funeral) and the only time I quote scripture is to beat the sense into dogmatic and blinded sheep of the flock.


Hey. Didn't mean to offend you. I'm trying to be as respectful as possible in my posts. I was simply saying that what you described in your other post sounded like blind faith (and still does). I did not mean to assert that you are led by blind faith, but the way you worded your post seemed to imply that. What you've just said does clarify a bit but also seems to make your previous post ("Its not about logic, reason, books...") a bit null and void. If your faith was not about logic or reason, then I don't think you would acknowledge the "hypocrisy in (your) religion...the flaws in (your) scriptures...the corruption of (your) churches."

But this is what confuses many atheists, or at least me. Why if you acknowledge these aspects of your religion, do you still choose to follow it? What other hypocritical, flawed, and corrupt things do you believe in and practice?

Again, I say this respectfully. Usually tone of voice is lost in translation via the internets.

#20 Hawk

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 04:30 PM

you fail at religion if you question what another person believes or chooses to believe!

#21 mr beauxjangles

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 04:40 PM

you fail at religion if you question what another person believes or chooses to believe!


nope.

thought FTW.

#22 pstall

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 06:40 PM

because some people seek to explain the world in terms not confined to the pages of a book doesn't mean they're going out of their way to disprove something that can't be disproved.

maybe if you harp on this line enough you'll run across someone who matches the description you continually attack, or maybe you could just do us all a favor and cut your fingers off.


Stealing WIFI from the padded room again? Nice.

#23 cptx

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 06:47 PM

Not really...

I DO believe in something... I just don't really know how to put it into words...

I guess that is why I feel religion is an evil entity in this world... It puts out that mentality that you're either "with us" or you will suffer the consequences...


I still think the "faith" argument is a copout...

Faith in what?

Faith that things will go as you would like? Faith that when they don't that you will have the strength to overcome them?

Or faith that some supernatural power will lead you to your destiny, no matter how bumpy the road?

I've had faith that I would win the lottery here as of late, but damn if I ever do... I'm sure it's some entity's will that I am not a rich man with enough money to help those around me (I most certainly would do it), and I guess "he" has plans otherwise...

I could sit on my ass all day and have faith that I wouldn't be a fat bum that didn't get blacklisted for not paying bills... However, reality would quickly chime in and make it so...

Faith is the ultimate in passiveness... You have to be the catalyst sometimes...


these two posts pretty much echo my thoughts on the issue.

#24 pstall

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 06:53 PM

I am not really trying to debunk anything with this thread... I am just pointing out the flawed train of thought most adherents to a specific religion hold onto...

Worried? Not really... You are correct though, as I have stated many times, that I have spent a great deal of my life researching the world's religions.

I guess since you obviously don't agree with anything I said, it's easier to attack me and what your perceptions are of me rather than address the allegations I made...

Simply put:

If it's a fear of punishment that makes you a religious person...

or

If you think the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, the Book of Mormon, the Vedas, the Tao Te Ching, or whichever "Holy Book" you choose as the "word of God(s)" are anything more than good stories to guide the moral compass...

or

That your religion is any more holy than anyone else's, regardless of who's came first or the similarities between them...

...then you might be a sheep...

I'm not saying religion itself is such a bad thing... It has a very good core belief system...

That said, you should be able to teach such things without "stories" and such presented as literal truth and logical fact...


And here I thought SLJ would appreciate my curtness.

I have NEVER said my religion is better than anyones. Pull all my posts.
Attack? Hardly.
Have you seen me start any threads crying about being attacked? In fact, had I said the very thing you just said the persecution card gets played.
The atheists can't have it both ways.
I personally don't consider myself religious. In fact the word makes my skin crawl. I prefer spiritual.

If someone is motivated out of fear to do what they do, I guess you can say that's religious or just ill informed.
Now after studying and learning what I have learned I may have a healthy fear/respect but I'm 100% NOT motivated by fear.

Logic will simply never understand faith. I have used the scene from the movie Contact several times on this very topic.
Isn't that what makes Kirk cooler than Spock? He goes by gut instinct, feelings and sometimes faith?
You do things on faith sometimes do you not? Everything isn't so laid out and calculated that there are times you roll the dice. Call it an educated guess or a guesstimate but there are elements of faith involved.

I guess my overall consternation is if people don't believe etc(and again, pull any of my posts on me railing on ANYBODY for not believing) is the inordinate amount of time and energy for something that doesn't exist.

So, either you are truly searching for the truth or you are genuinely concerned about life after death of which none of us knows what will happen.
Somebody says it's no biggie and folks roll along with it. Who is the sheep here?


So overall, I wouldn't sweat it. Go and live your life the way you want. I wouldn't waste one nano second on it. I'm dead serious.

I don't blast anyone on here for any choices they make any life. I can disagree with them, I can put my two cents in if they ask me.
But I certainly don't waste my time creating threads trying to appear as if I'm interested in a discussion on something when it's just a way to get off intellectually because I know no matter what they say I'm not agreeing.
Not saying this is you, just a general observation.

#25 pstall

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 06:59 PM

I think most atheists would contend that they are not "worried about the unknown" but rather they are worried, or confused, by the fact that so many smart people - in an age where logic and reason dominate every other discussion - could lead their lives and in many cases predicate their lives upon a single book filled with tales and guided by an imaginary being.

With that said, let me note that I like your posts in all the forums on this board, and you're one of the people I usually agree with in the football forums. So I don't want to be argumentative. It's probably a terrible thing that I finally discovered the Tinderbox and all the discussion on religion...

I don't want to speak for all atheists, but for me, the most troubling aspect of being an atheist is that my reasons for being an atheist usually give the impression that I think believers are ignorant. And often our views are peppered with a heavy dose of arrogance and a tone that implies that we are "holier than thou" (pun intended). I find belief to be silly, but obviously I do not think believers are ignorant. I am just confused and frustrated by the prevalence of belief among so many intelligent people.


Thanks. One of the most even handed approaches to this I have seen so far.
The frustration part can be completely reciprocated by a believer.
Which is why I prefer to shy away from these discussion because it leads to nowhere.
I have not taken my own medicine on this and I see the results.
Because either side becomes a sniper and cherry picks things they like/don't like and it just comes become mudslinging and fruitless.
Normally I try to chime in if I think something is being misconstrued or misrepresented.

#26 Fiz

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 11:22 PM

Logic will simply never understand faith. I have used the scene from the movie Contact several times on this very topic.
Isn't that what makes Kirk cooler than Spock? He goes by gut instinct, feelings and sometimes faith?

lol congratulations you use star trek and matthew mcconaughey to justify your stupid beliefs.

#27 xPUREBYBLOODx

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 12:23 AM

you fail at life when you eat up all the lies and rhetoric to a point that you cannot even think for yourself any longer. You then are just as the others, sheep to the slaughter.

#28 R0CKnR0LLA

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 12:31 AM

You fail when you blindly follow a religion that makes no sense just because the people that invented said religion tell you, "It's all true, God told me so".

Here's a lump of sh-t. God told me that you should eat it. Have fun.

#29 N1kkadeemuz

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 05:49 AM

Here's the thing. The post is made and SLJ posts his beliefs. Says they are right. Gets defensive when you say that they may not be. But he is definitely not the religous wacko.

Why is there so much time spent running around the same track in the Tinderbox?

#30 Inimicus

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 07:03 AM

Hey. Didn't mean to offend you. I'm trying to be as respectful as possible in my posts. I was simply saying that what you described in your other post sounded like blind faith (and still does). I did not mean to assert that you are led by blind faith, but the way you worded your post seemed to imply that. What you've just said does clarify a bit but also seems to make your previous post ("Its not about logic, reason, books...") a bit null and void. If your faith was not about logic or reason, then I don't think you would acknowledge the "hypocrisy in (your) religion...the flaws in (your) scriptures...the corruption of (your) churches."

But this is what confuses many atheists, or at least me. Why if you acknowledge these aspects of your religion, do you still choose to follow it? What other hypocritical, flawed, and corrupt things do you believe in and practice?

Again, I say this respectfully. Usually tone of voice is lost in translation via the internets.



No worries, you didn't offend. As you say, tone of voice is everything.

The difficulty in explaining it is that while its not about logic or reasoning that doesn't grant me carte blanche to turn off my brain. I still have the responsibility to myself and my faith to think. To simply take what is offered by the church or its sacred texts as the end all and be all would reduce the whole practice to little more than a no parking sign. Something you do (or dont do) simply because you were told to.


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