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Game #16 Bobcats vs Trail Blazers


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#151 bLACKpANTHER

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:43 AM

I hate when our line up at the end of the games are Sessions/Kemba/Gordon/Bismack/Mullens. It doesn't make sense to me, when we have guys like MKG, Taylor, and Hendo on the bench

i havent figured out why it isnt Haywood/Biz to close out games.. we have lost the past few games based on our inability to rebound.. Haywood and Biz would be able to defend and rebound in the clutch

#152 ZB1224

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:54 PM

i havent figured out why it isnt Haywood/Biz to close out games.. we have lost the past few games based on our inability to rebound.. Haywood and Biz would be able to defend and rebound in the clutch


Well to be fair, Mullens has been a better defensive rebounder than either.

#153 Implied Volatility

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:53 PM

Well to be fair, Mullens has been a better defensive rebounder than either.


He's not as good of a rebounder as his stats suggest. He can't consistently box out and won't fight for rebounds. The only time I've been impressed with his rebounding this season was his game against Minnesota. He'd easily average 10+ rebounds a/game if he grew some balls. Haywood is a better rebounder on the offensive and defensive glass. Biz at least tries and doesn't back down when players get physical.

#154 Johnny Kilroy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:23 PM

I agree, stats can be misleading.

Haywood definitely does the things right that is required to be a good rebounder, which is "want-to" and positioning. Mullens is often out of position because of his effort.

#155 ZB1224

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:44 PM

Haywood might be tougher, and have better rebounding fundamentals, but Mullens grabs a significantly larger percent of defensive rebounds than Haywood (16% to 23%). Haywood is a much better offensive rebounder, however (11.5% to 5.3%). I agree that stats don't tell the entire story, but it's definitely fair to say that Mullens is a better defensive rebounder. They are practically even at overall REB% though (13.6 for Haywood to 14.1 for Mullens). Now, I agree that Haywood is overall a better rebounder, but stats say otherwise. Stats aren't everything and can be misleading, but they don't lie.

Btw, I know this wouldn't surprise any of you guys, but Haywood impacts the game much more on the defensive end than Mullens does. Haywood's DefRtg is 98.7 compared to Mullens' 105.3. I knew that Haywood is obviously a much better defensive player, but I didn't realize that the difference was so drastic... especially since DefRtg is influenced so much by team defense, I kinda figured that they were a little closer in DefRtg.

#156 Johnny Kilroy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:12 PM

Stats do lie to an extent though.

Just like if someone has a high shooting percentage doesn't necessarily make them a good shooter. Or say, a high number of steals doesn't makes necessarily make you a good on-ball defender. Basketball is much more subjective of a sport than the stats tell you. You have to watch them on court. I use stats as a supplementary measure not my primary measure.

#157 ZB1224

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:45 PM

Stats do lie to an extent though.

Just like if someone has a high shooting percentage doesn't necessarily make them a good shooter. Or say, a high number of steals doesn't makes necessarily make you a good on-ball defender. Basketball is much more subjective of a sport than the stats tell you. You have to watch them on court. I use stats as a supplementary measure not my primary measure.


Well, I would say that you are looking at the wrong stats tbh. FG% isn't what you should be looking at to see how good a player is at shooting... same with steals and being a good on-ball defender. There are stats out there that can tell you good how a player defends, shoots, rebounds, etc. There are also measurements that tell you how good a player defends iso's, pick n roll's, in the post, etc. I agree that stats aren't everything, but they tell the story... just not the whole story.

#158 Implied Volatility

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:51 PM

Mullens is not an above average defensive rebounder like the stats make him seem. He doesn't pass the eye test for the simple fact that he gives up too many 2nd chance opportunities. And he doesn't get the kind of boards that above average rebounders in the NBA get on a regular basis. Mullens is one of the main reasons that the Cats give up the 2nd most offensive rebounds a/game. It's not just his poor boxing out, but also his terrible defense in general, many times resulting in his teammates being left out of position on the boards.

I want Haywood at center if the Cats need to stop a run or get a defensive rebound late in the game. Not Mullens. Mullens has the tools to be a damn good rebounder. However at this point I consider him to be a slightly below average rebounder among starting bigs. I hope this last game was his wake up call.

#159 Johnny Kilroy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:05 PM

Well, I would say that you are looking at the wrong stats tbh. FG% isn't what you should be looking at to see how good a player is at shooting... same with steals and being a good on-ball defender. There are stats out there that can tell you good how a player defends, shoots, rebounds, etc. There are also measurements that tell you how good a player defends iso's, pick n roll's, in the post, etc. I agree that stats aren't everything, but they tell the story... just not the whole story.


That's what I am saying. I never look to those stats to determine if a player is a good shooter or if someone is a good defender. I watch the games. That's the best evaluator.

What I am also saying is that REB% doesn't tell the whole story and doesn't mean someone is a better rebounder if their's is higher. Stats shouldn't be the primary thing you look at.

Yes, Mullens has improved in getting more rebounds but Haywood is still a better rebounder. Mullens can be unreliable when we need a big rebound. I think a lot of that has to do with being a poor defender. His lack of defense puts him in a bad position to rebound. He benefits a lot from his height and athleticism not fundamentals.

#160 ZB1224

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:13 PM

We will just have to agree to disagree. I'm by no means a Byron Mullens fan (for obvious reasons), but I believe that he is a slightly above average defensive rebounder. He is a very average rebounder overall, but when he is on the court he grabs a good chunk of defensive rebounds. His defensive rebounding is about the only thing that I like about him... other then him being able to stretch the floor, but well, he can't hit jumpers consistently at all so that's hardly a strength. He does hurt us more than help though. We just have no other options that could do any better.

#161 Johnny Kilroy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:20 PM

See, I think you are using the stats primarily to make that statement about him being an above average rebounder on the defensive side. I think that's generous as I see him as an average defensive rebounder. He does rack up some rebounds but not all of them are because he out powers and out positions opposing players.

I'm not equating all of Mullens defensive rebounds to this but if I had to bet he is used as the trailer in transition offense. As a a result, players like Haywood are taught to get a head start on offense. That's something stats can't account for.

#162 ZB1224

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:21 PM

That's what I am saying. I never look to those stats to determine if a player is a good shooter or if someone is a good defender. I watch the games. That's the best evaluator.

What I am also saying is that REB% doesn't tell the whole story and doesn't mean someone is a better rebounder if their's is higher. Stats shouldn't be the primary thing you look at.

Yes, Mullens has improved in getting more rebounds but Haywood is still a better rebounder. Mullens can be unreliable when we need a big rebound. I think a lot of that has to do with being a poor defender. His lack of defense puts him in a bad position to rebound. He benefits a lot from his height and athleticism not fundamentals.


I agree with most of what you, as well as others are saying, but I just believe that Mullens is a solid defensive rebounder. Haywood is a better overall rebounder (although he hasn't been too great on the defensive boards).

Stats aren't the primary thing that I look at, because like I said, they do tell the story, but not the whole story. Typically stats will back up the eye test, and there's a reason for that. I think that it's pretty clear that Mullens is poor at boxing out, but the fact of the matter is that he grabs a good percentage of rebounds on defense.

#163 Johnny Kilroy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:25 PM

But does he grab them because he is a good rebounder or does he grab them because of other reasons? (ex: length, athleticism, transition offense)

#164 ZB1224

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:43 PM

But does he grab them because he is a good rebounder or does he grab them because of other reasons? (ex: length, athleticism, transition offense)


Well, that's debatable. I would say mostly a mix of being a solid rebounder, athleticism, and length. Either way, he grabs a good percentage of defensive rebounds, so he's getting it done.


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