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The case for firing Rivera and the case for keeping Rivera


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#16 KJ89

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:32 AM

Pretty much sums up my feelings. Indifferent. Torn. Loved the post, nice job

Promoted to article. Nice.


Yes, very worthy of article status, kudo's.



#17 2jakefansinva

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:39 AM

"...but I also think the Panthers will be one of the most sought after jobs by coaches should it come open."
Not so sure about that. Jerry Richardson has proven himself to be pretty frugal and won't pay a top coach's salary. Witness John Fox in his last season in Charlotte only making about $3M as one of the longest tenured coaches in the league after all his years with the Panthers.


I do believe Fox was in the 6 mil. range

#18 teeray

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:41 AM

Not so sure about that. Jerry Richardson has proven himself to be pretty frugal and won't pay a top coach's salary. Witness John Fox in his last season in Charlotte only making about $3M as one of the longest tenured coaches in the league after all his years with the Panthers.


Fox was one of the top ten highest paid coaches in the NFL that season and the entire staff's salary was among the highest in the NFL that year.

#19 SparkyDevil

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:52 AM

Personally, I would prefer to keep RR for another year. He's done a great job with the *defense and from what we've seen in videos or on the field, he still has the locker room and respect of the players. The mere fact that they played hard for the final weeks of the season shows that they really respect him. I feel like firing Rivera would cause more problems. What we need is a better OC with head coaching experience. (NORV)

Edit - wrote offense instead of defense* - (hangover)

#20 Anybodyhome

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:54 AM

"Fox was one of the top ten highest paid coaches in the NFL that season and the entire staff's salary was among the highest in the NFL that year."

I'm not sure what your reference is, but while there are several lists out there, I just saw one from 2011 where Fox wasn't in the top 10, and I'm sure he didn't take a pay cut to go to Denver. Top 10 means nothing and is rather deceiving when the top guys that years were making at least twice what Fox was and some of them had less than half the tenure as a head coach than Fox.

Bill Belichick New England Patriots $7.50 million
Mike Shanahan Washington Redskins $7.00 million
Pete Carroll Seattle Seahawks $6.70 million
Jeff Fisher Tennessee Titans $5.75 million
Mike Tomlin Pittsburgh Steelers $5.75 million
Ken Whisenhunt Arizona Cardinals $5.75 million
Andy Reid Philadelphia Eagles $5.50 million
Tom Coughlin New York Giants $5.25 million
Jack Del Rio Jacksonville Jaguars $5.00 million
Lovie Smith Chicago Bears $4.80 million
http://www.buzzle.co...oaches2011.html

#21 cranky

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:16 PM

I'll make an argument as to why he should stay:

1. Most of the poor decision making came early in his career as a HC. As he has gained experience, his game management has become much better.

2. A lot of the early close losses where results of things just out of his control. Yes, he should have gone for it on 4th down against Atlanta, but IF Cam had not fumbled, that call never would have had to be made. He also is not the one who let White get behind him for the catch to put them in FG position. Against, the Bears, he couldn't control Smith slipping on the route which resulted in the pick 6. It seems nothing good went in the Panther's favor during that spell (losing 13 or so coin tosses, not having the fumble against Denver called as the runner approached the EZ, not getting personal fouls called against the defense and yet the defensive players are fined for hits after the game, etc., etc. Again, he did play too conservative early which hurt them but he learned from his mistakes and the time management and play calling have vastly improved over the course of his career.

3. He realized his mistake with the option read on offense and while the changed took a little too long, he did learn from his mistake and made the proper changes.

4. The Panther's have finally learned how to win. Against the Saints, I really believe the earlier Panther's would have folded in the 3rd quarter. They would have tried to have Cam either run too much or throw too much which never worked before. Instead, they just continued running with DW and T. So on a day when Cam only completes 48% of his passes (multiple dropped passes), only runs for 34 yards, is not responsible for a single TD, AND throws a pick 6, the Panthers still win convincingly.

5. And finally, one of my major frustrations originally with RR was how sloppy the Panther's played. You could always count on a penalty filled game. And those penalties always seemed to come at the worst times. Not anymore. One of the most marked improvements I have seen over the course of the two years is how much more disciplined they now play. There are still penalties, but nothing like when he first took over. When you consider how many of the players are either rookies or were PS players, I think it is even more remarkable. Playing good, sound, disciplined football as team is the result of good coaching - plain and simple.

Given all those improvements, I can't help but feel that Rivera has earned a chance at one more year. It really would be a shame to get rid of him just as he got to the point where he needs to be. No one would get rid of a rookie QB in his second year after showing improvements just because he wasn't able to win the big one. It's the improvements and development that are important and under any metric, Rivera has delivered in that regard.

#22 teeray

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:18 PM

"Fox was one of the top ten highest paid coaches in the NFL that season and the entire staff's salary was among the highest in the NFL that year."

I'm not sure what your reference is, but while there are several lists out there, I just saw one from 2011 where Fox wasn't in the top 10, and I'm sure he didn't take a pay cut to go to Denver. Top 10 means nothing and is rather deceiving when the top guys that years were making at least twice what Fox was and some of them had less than half the tenure as a head coach than Fox.

Bill Belichick New England Patriots $7.50 million
Mike Shanahan Washington Redskins $7.00 million
Pete Carroll Seattle Seahawks $6.70 million
Jeff Fisher Tennessee Titans $5.75 million
Mike Tomlin Pittsburgh Steelers $5.75 million
Ken Whisenhunt Arizona Cardinals $5.75 million
Andy Reid Philadelphia Eagles $5.50 million
Tom Coughlin New York Giants $5.25 million
Jack Del Rio Jacksonville Jaguars $5.00 million
Lovie Smith Chicago Bears $4.80 million
http://www.buzzle.co...oaches2011.html


Here is one link. He made 6 million in 2010 and the entire staff's comnpensation was also amongst the highest in the NFL

Some prominent NFL coaches who were nearing the ends of their contracts had their salary figures released. John Fox (Carolina Panthers) was in the final year of his contract and was to earn $6 million in 2010;


Read more: The Average Salary of an NFL Head Coach | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/...l#ixzz2GkHwQmF0



http://www.ehow.com/...head-coach.html




and another

Richardson ultimately kept Fox on for another year in what amounted to a disastrous lame duck season in 2010, later saying he couldn't justify to the team's shareholders to buy out the final year of Fox's contract — and those of his staff — at an estimated cost of more than $11 million.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.c.../#ixzz2GkIiSl00




#23 rayzor

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:29 PM

Here is one link. He made 6 million in 2010 and the entire staff's comnpensation was also amongst the highest in the NFL





and another

which is why he didn't want to fire that coaching staff and hire another one. didn't want to pay for two staffs. didn't like it, but understood it.

#24 teeray

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:32 PM

I'll make an argument as to why he should stay:

1. Most of the poor decision making came early in his career as a HC. As he has gained experience, his game management has become much better.

2. A lot of the early close losses where results of things just out of his control. Yes, he should have gone for it on 4th down against Atlanta, but IF Cam had not fumbled, that call never would have had to be made. He also is not the one who let White get behind him for the catch to put them in FG position. Against, the Bears, he couldn't control Smith slipping on the route which resulted in the pick 6. It seems nothing good went in the Panther's favor during that spell (losing 13 or so coin tosses, not having the fumble against Denver called as the runner approached the EZ, not getting personal fouls called against the defense and yet the defensive players are fined for hits after the game, etc., etc. Again, he did play too conservative early which hurt them but he learned from his mistakes and the time management and play calling have vastly improved over the course of his career.

3. He realized his mistake with the option read on offense and while the changed took a little too long, he did learn from his mistake and made the proper changes.

4. The Panther's have finally learned how to win. Against the Saints, I really believe the earlier Panther's would have folded in the 3rd quarter. They would have tried to have Cam either run too much or throw too much which never worked before. Instead, they just continued running with DW and T. So on a day when Cam only completes 48% of his passes (multiple dropped passes), only runs for 34 yards, is not responsible for a single TD, AND throws a pick 6, the Panthers still win convincingly.

5. And finally, one of my major frustrations originally with RR was how sloppy the Panther's played. You could always count on a penalty filled game. And those penalties always seemed to come at the worst times. Not anymore. One of the most marked improvements I have seen over the course of the two years is how much more disciplined they now play. There are still penalties, but nothing like when he first took over. When you consider how many of the players are either rookies or were PT players, I think it is even more remarkable. Playing good, sound, disciplined football as team is the result of good coaching - plain and simple.

Given all those improvements, I can't help but feel that Rivera has earned a chance at one more year. It really would be a shame to get rid of him just as he got to the point where he needs to be. No one would get rid of a rookie QB in his second year after showing improvements just because he wasn't able to win the big one. It's the improvements and development that are important and under any metric, Rivera has delivered in that regard.


You bring up some good points and I don't wholeheartedly disagree with you.

However.

We were wasting timeouts against the Saints and against Oakland we botched the end of the first half by using a final timeout when we should have been spiking the ball thus limiting our playcalling options especially after the penalty that pushed us back.

Nobody remembers those things because we won those games. But those are the type of things that lose close games.

It didn't get much better. We just happened to win some games so people didn't notice.

#25 cranky

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:47 PM

We were wasting timeouts against the Saints and against Oakland we botched the end of the first half by using a final timeout when we should have been spiking the ball thus limiting our playcalling options especially after the penalty that pushed us back.


I disagree. I don't think those TO against the Saints where necessarily wasted. I think they came at times when there was some confusion on the field. Remember the OL was pretty much a patch-work affair so it is only natural to expect some communications problems. Secondly, they only used two TO's in each half so they still had one remaining.

Against Oakland, they only took two TO's the entire game so again, I don't see how that taking a TO was wasted.

#26 cranky

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:53 PM

... against Oakland we botched the end of the first half by using a final timeout...


Just wanted to point out that they only used 1 TO in the first half and they scored a TD two plays later.

Maybe you were thinking of another game?

#27 rayzor

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:55 PM

You bring up some good points and I don't wholeheartedly disagree with you.

However.

We were wasting timeouts against the Saints and against Oakland we botched the end of the first half by using a final timeout when we should have been spiking the ball thus limiting our playcalling options especially after the penalty that pushed us back.

Nobody remembers those things because we won those games. But those are the type of things that lose close games.

It didn't get much better. We just happened to win some games so people didn't notice.

agreed. we barely got away with wins that we essentially just got lucky with and we lost games that we had in the bag. again, players made mistakes but the coaching staff made bad calls that helped give those games away.

and performance of the players always falls back on the coaching staff. it's their job to put them in a position to win, and part of that is not giving games away or giving control to the other team. it's also putting together a plan that the players can win with or even excel in. it's also getting the right people in the right positions at the right time and ensuring that they can carry out the plan/directions you've given them.

team management. game management. it all falls on rivera. he improved in some areas, but my main concern is 1) his ability to continue growth and 2) having a low ceiling. it's quite possible that this team will never get much better than average with rivera calling the shots.

but hey...as long as the players are content with their coach and we don't have to rock the boat again, it's all worth it, right?

meh.....if rivera stays, it should be with a very short leash that he will be released from if he doesn't perform as expected...and those expectations are winning season next year or he's gone. not 8-8....winning. playoffs the year after that. that's the bare minimum.

i would also make sure that there's a coach on staff that has HC experience and if rivera's team goes through a losing spell, as in 3 in a row...he's gone and the assistant will take over. if the team is losing by the bye week....he's gone. losing can no longer be tolerated.

if the players think it's harsh or putting too much pressure on him...too bad. play better and know that it's not just your job on the line, it's the coaches.

#28 teeray

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:14 PM

I disagree. I don't think those TO against the Saints where necessarily wasted. I think they came at times when there was some confusion on the field. Remember the OL was pretty much a patch-work affair so it is only natural to expect some communications problems. Secondly, they only used two TO's in each half so they still had one remaining.

Against Oakland, they only took two TO's the entire game so again, I don't see how that taking a TO was wasted.


The reason why I say they are wasted is because, for whatever reason, we are not getting to the line of scrimmage fast enough. I don't know if the issue is with Cam in the huddle or Chud in the booth, but when you don't get to the line of scrimmage until there is 8 seconds left on the play clock you don't have enough time to get everyone on the same page. Thus we end up using a timeout to avoid a delay of game, and those timeouts become precious at the end of each half. It is mismanagement somewhere and it never got fixed.

And I was wrong about the game I was referring to. it was the San Diego game I was thinking of. We had 30 seconds left at the end of the half when we completed a pass to Olsen at the 5 yard line. Instead of getting down there and spiking the ball we used our last timeout. If we keep that timeout we can run a QB draw or a running play instead of having to complete a pass in the endzone with the entire defense floating around in there. Or if you get sacked you can stop the clock

The next play there is a penalty pushing us back to the 15 yard line. Now if you still have that timeout you can run a play short of the goal line and try to run it in after the catch or get to a better position for a TD. Instead, again we have to throw the ball in the endzone with the entire defense camping out in there. At the end we settled for a field goal after three straight incompletions trying to force it in the endzone from 15 yards out. Again, IMO, that is game mismanagement.

But we won those games so it goes unnoticed.

#29 rayzor

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:22 PM

The reason why I say they are wasted is because, for whatever reason, we are not getting to the line of scrimmage fast enough. I don't know if the issue is with Cam in the huddle or Chud in the booth, but when you don't get to the line of scrimmage until there is 8 seconds left on the play clock you don't have enough time to get everyone on the same page. Thus we end up using a timeout to avoid a delay of game, and those timeouts become precious at the end of each half. It is mismanagement somewhere and it never got fixed.

And I was wrong about the game I was referring to. it was the San Diego game I was thinking of. We had 30 seconds left at the end of the half when we completed a pass to Olsen at the 5 yard line. Instead of getting down there and spiking the ball we used our last timeout. If we keep that timeout we can run a QB draw or a running play instead of having to complete a pass in the endzone with the entire defense floating around in there. Or if you get sacked you can stop the clock

The next play there is a penalty pushing us back to the 15 yard line. Now if you still have that timeout you can run a play short of the goal line and try to run it in after the catch or get to a better position for a TD. Instead, again we have to throw the ball in the endzone with the entire defense camping out in there. At the end we settled for a field goal after three straight incompletions trying to force it in the endzone from 15 yards out. Again, IMO, that is game mismanagement.

But we won those games so it goes unnoticed.

i remember talking to my family towards the end of the san diego game when they said the game was in the bag and we didn't need to watch anymore. i said, if anyone can blow a 3 TD lead or whatever in just a few minutes, it's the panthers. i have no confidence in that team to keep a lead of any kind. and the sad thing is, it's warranted.

#30 Eazy-E

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:25 PM

Personally, I would prefer to keep RR for another year. He's done a great job with the offense and from what we've seen in videos or on the field, he still has the locker room and respect of the players. The mere fact that they played hard for the final weeks of the season shows that they really respect him. I feel like firing Rivera would cause more problems. What we need is a better OC with head coaching experience. (NORV)


Only way I would want to keep Ron is if we fire or demote Chud and bring Norv Turner as the AHC/OC.


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