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Don't Cut DW!


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#76 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:26 PM

Stewar didn't run for more than 51 yards in any game this season. And yes he did have a game where he was given 15 carries and 17 carries. Yeah he had yardage totals in the 40s.

Tell me again how Tolbert can carry the load when he ran for his highest total against San Diego which was 40 yards on 9 carries.

So if we combine their most productive games of the year we end up with a total of 83 yards on 20 carries. At worse they combined for 20 yards.

Unless you want to run Newton constantly, then Tolbert and Stewart can't carry the load based on 2012. Not close.


Easy.....bc this offense isn't about having a primary runner like a team like Minn or Hou. We had one RB hit 100 yards once in 2011....and many argue that was one of the best rushing attacks in NFL history.

And when you remove Williams....every RB takes on those carries. We ran the ball a total of 462 times this year. Cam needs at least 1/4. That would leave 348....which just happens to be the amount Adrian Peterson had all to himself this year. So you are saying Mike Tolbert and Jonathan Stewart can't split the carries a true featured RB gets?

That doesn't even factor in the garbage few carries WRs, etc got in our 462 this year

#77 panthers55

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:28 PM

Sorry, but your numbers are wrong.

If we cut DWill post June 1st, we pay him nothing, as he has no guaranteed money left on his deal. From a cap standpoint, we would be charged $3.2 million in unallocated bonus this year, with the rest ($6.4 million) hitting us next year. So instead of a cap hit of $8.2 million for 2013, we would have a cap hit of $3.2 million, saving us $5 million of cap money. In 2014, the cap savings would be $2.8 million. After that, he's off our books.

Stewart signed a contract with $23 million guaranteed. So far, he has collected just under $12 million dollars of that. So first of all, we would be on the hook for $11 million in cash unless we could find someone to pick up that obligation via trade. From a cap standpoint, we have that $11 million to deal with, along with another $7.2 million in unallocated signing bonus, for a total hit of just under $19 million dollars. So forget cutting him. Not that you were suggesting we should.

All that said, we may, and I emphasize may, be able to find a trade partner for Stew or DWill. In DWill's case, we would need to do it post June 1st. In Stew's case, they would have to be willing to pick up the $11 million not yet paid out in guaranteed money, plus whatever other salary he could negotiate.


Whether is is 3.2 in 2013 and 6.4 in 2014 or evenly split, the fact is 10 million will be lost in dead cap space. This idea of savings is the same thing my wife tells me when she spent 400 dollars but saved me almost 800 bucks. Yeah right. With the cap being flat in 2014 I don't think a 6.4 million cap hit is saving anything when we get nothing in return.

As for stewart he was given 23 million in guaranteed money but from a cap point of view he has collected less than 2 million of it. So if we cut or traded him he would still count over 21 million against the cap if he earned his incentives. Your numbers are way off. The issue is only whether the 9 million in option bonus is guaranteed or not. And if we trade him will we be on the hook or the other team.

You seem to be mixing salary and cap space which are not the same. His 9 million salary bonus has been paid but only 1.9 million has been counted against the cap.

#78 Argus Plexus

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:32 PM

Restructing can create more of the same problems we currently face.....especially if you throw money at an older or injured player. Have to be selective. Like restructuring both Beason and Williams is playing with fire. That cash can provide temporarily relief but haunt you in a year

I really wonder what Gett Dawg is going to do with these names we all love?

#79 Marguide

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:34 PM

55's numbers are right....he is looking at how it reflects from a cap standpoint.

Technically we might not be giving a guy a check....but from a cap standpoint we are. Guaranteed money gets spread out over the length of a contract even if the player already has it in his pocket when you cut him


No. Sorry again.

DWill's signing bonus was spread over 5 years, and we have to take $3.2 million of that each year as long as he's on the roster. Once he's off the roster, it accelerates, as I suspect you know. We are on the hook for 3 more years at $3.2 a year. That's $9.6 million.

When you cut a player after June 1st, you spread the hit over 2 years. The first year, you only have to take what was already on your books for that league year. The balance hits in year 2.

Here's the math, using Spotrac as the reference for contract figures:
Scheduled cap hit for 2013 = $8.2 million dollars
Scheduled non-guaranteed salary = $4.750 million (we don't have to pay any of this)
Scheduled work out bonus = $250,000 (again, not guaranteed)
Scheduled allocated signing bonus charge = $3.2 million (no cash, but we are on the hook for this)

$8.2 million - $3.2 million = savings of $5 million

You can do the same exercise for 2014, but the answer is we save $2.8 million.

#80 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:41 PM

I really wonder what Gett Dawg is going to do with these names we all love?

I would imagine he will be hated intitially...

#81 Marguide

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:44 PM

Whether is is 3.2 in 2013 and 6.4 in 2014 or evenly split, the fact is 10 million will be lost in dead cap space.


But it is just an accounting number, nothing more. Whether DWill plays here or not, we can't make that $9.6 million accounting figure go away. Why it makes more sense to move him when we have an alternative and are strapped for cap space is because in addition to that $9.6 million over 3 years, he is scheduled to earn an additional $17.250 million in salary over the next 3 years.

Now we both know he isn't going to see all that $17 million in un-guaranteed salary, but he surely is going to be earning something if he is still playing. We have 2 highly paid backs. We agree that baring a miracle trade, Stew isn't going anywhere. So our choice is this...do we re-negotiate DWill giving him more guaranteed money (right now he has $0) and not have any appreciable cap savings this year from clearing his contract, or do we move him out and help our cap by $5 million.

I wish we could keep him, and maybe they'll find a creative way to do so and then use him effectively, but it just doesn't seem realistic.

Edit: By the way, I'll bet we could use that cap savings this year to sign a nice safety or RG or #2 WR in FA. We have to be under the cap in March, so those moves will already have been made, and come June 1st, if we do something with DWill, we suddenly have some money to go out and find some help at a position of need.

#82 panthers55

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:51 PM

Easy.....bc this offense isn't about having a primary runner like a team like Minn or Hou. We had one RB hit 100 yards in 2011....and many argue that was one of the best rushing attacks in NFL history.

And when you remove Williams....every RB takes on those carries. We ran the ball a total of 462 times this year. Cam needs at least 1/4. That would leave 348....which just happens to be the amount Adrian Peterson had all to himself this year. So you are saying Mike Tolbert and Jonathan Stewart can't split the carries a true featured RB gets?

That doesn't even factor in the garbage few carries WRs, etc got in our 462 this year


Assuming that Stewart will hold up for 16 games may be a stretch. He has never carried the ball more than 221 times and even with that ended up on IR 2 of the past three years. And your logic that carries will be picked up by others may not be true. Against Seattle for example Stewart carried for 4 carries for 16 yards and Williams ran it 6 times for 6 yards. Even Cam only has 42 yards on 7 carries. Tolbert had 1 carry for 3 yards. How about against Tampa twice?? Stewart didn't play and Tolbert and Williams combined for 7 carries for 1 yard. Newton had 5 carries for 4 yards. The second time, Stewart had 43 yards on 15 carries, Williams had 18 yards on 7 carries. Even Newton had only 40 yards on 11 carries.

Again Stewart showed very little in 2012. Even if you give him all of Williams carries against Seattle he gets 62 yards, and again Tampa he gets 61 yards on 22 carries. He did better against NO and Washington on a yard per carry average but otherwise as pretty bad.
As a team we didn't do much against good run defenses and Stewart didn't really help that much.

#83 panthers55

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:55 PM

But it is just an accounting number, nothing more. Whether DWill plays here or not, we can't make that $9.6 million accounting figure go away. Why it makes more sense to move him when we have an alternative and are strapped for cap space is because in addition to that $9.6 million over 3 years, he is scheduled to earn an additional $17.250 million in salary over the next 3 years.

Now we both know he isn't going to see all that $17 million in un-guaranteed salary, but he surely is going to be earning something if he is still playing. We have 2 highly paid backs. We agree that baring a miracle trade, Stew isn't going anywhere. So our choice is this...do we re-negotiate DWill giving him more guaranteed money (right now he has $0) and not have any appreciable cap savings this year from clearing his contract, or do we move him out and help our cap by $5 million.

I wish we could keep him, and maybe they'll find a creative way to do so and then use him effectively, but it just doesn't seem realistic.

Edit: By the way, I'll bet we could use that cap savings this year to sign a nice safety or RG or #2 WR in FA. We have to be under the cap in March, so those moves will already have been made, and come June 1st, if we do something with DWill, we suddenly have some money to go out and find some help at a position of need.


All of this assumes that Williams is essentially superfluous or easily replaced and I just don't believe that Stewart can handle the load he just hasn't gone that ever and there is no reason to believe this year will be any different. I would rather find the cap space elsewhere and not put my eggs in the Stewart basket when he seems too fragile.

#84 Kevin Greene

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:56 PM

Assuming that Stewart will hold up for 16 games may be a stretch. He has never carried the ball more than 221 times and even with that ended up on IR 2 of the past three years. And your logic that carries will be picked up by others may not be true. Against Seattle for example Stewart carried for 4 carries for 16 yards and Williams ran it 6 times for 6 yards. Even Cam only has 42 yards on 7 carries. Tolbert had 1 carry for 3 yards. How about against Tampa twice?? Stewart didn't play and Tolbert and Williams combined for 7 carries for 1 yard. Newton had 5 carries for 4 yards. The second time, Stewart had 43 yards on 15 carries, Williams had 18 yards on 7 carries. Even Newton had only 40 yards on 11 carries.

Again Stewart showed very little in 2012. Even if you give him all of Williams carries against Seattle he gets 62 yards, and again Tampa he gets 61 yards on 22 carries. He did better against NO and Washington on a yard per carry average but otherwise as pretty bad.
As a team we didn't do much against good run defenses and Stewart didn't really help that much.


This is part of the disfunctional Carolina system. Hurney spends valuable draft picks and cap dollars on the running back position and Rivera doesn't utilize it.
Did they ever freaking talk philosiphies?
Both those numbskulls needed to go.

#85 ThunderKatt

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:57 PM

Bottom line....

There is a reason why Rivera has essentially demoted Williams in 2011 (in snaps) and 2012 (officially)

There is a reason why every outsider who looks at our situation believes Williams likely played his last game here at NO (Everyone from the Observer, yahoo, ESPN)


Just like Rivera demoted lafell in favor of legs and then by the end of the season lafell was starting. So yeah, I can see how Rivera doesn't make bonehead decisions.

#86 panthers55

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:58 PM

No. Sorry again.

DWill's signing bonus was spread over 5 years, and we have to take $3.2 million of that each year as long as he's on the roster. Once he's off the roster, it accelerates, as I suspect you know. We are on the hook for 3 more years at $3.2 a year. That's $9.6 million.

When you cut a player after June 1st, you spread the hit over 2 years. The first year, you only have to take what was already on your books for that league year. The balance hits in year 2.

Here's the math, using Spotrac as the reference for contract figures:
Scheduled cap hit for 2013 = $8.2 million dollars
Scheduled non-guaranteed salary = $4.750 million (we don't have to pay any of this)
Scheduled work out bonus = $250,000 (again, not guaranteed)
Scheduled allocated signing bonus charge = $3.2 million (no cash, but we are on the hook for this)

$8.2 million - $3.2 million = savings of $5 million

You can do the same exercise for 2014, but the answer is we save $2.8 million.


Again you are saving nothing since you spend money and get nothing in return. At least if you pay him you have him to use. And frankly what makes you think that Stewart could run 250 times with no issues. And that is what it would take if you gave Stewart most of Williams carries.

#87 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:00 PM

Assuming that Stewart will hold up for 16 games may be a stretch. He has never carried the ball more than 221 times and even with that ended up on IR 2 of the past three years. And your logic that carries will be picked up by others may not be true. Against Seattle for example Stewart carried for 4 carries for 16 yards and Williams ran it 6 times for 6 yards. Even Cam only has 42 yards on 7 carries. Tolbert had 1 carry for 3 yards. How about against Tampa twice?? Stewart didn't play and Tolbert and Williams combined for 7 carries for 1 yard. Newton had 5 carries for 4 yards. The second time, Stewart had 43 yards on 15 carries, Williams had 18 yards on 7 carries. Even Newton had only 40 yards on 11 carries.

Again Stewart showed very little in 2012. Even if you give him all of Williams carries against Seattle he gets 62 yards, and again Tampa he gets 61 yards on 22 carries. He did better against NO and Washington on a yard per carry average but otherwise as pretty bad.
As a team we didn't do much against good run defenses and Stewart didn't really help that much.


And if he doesn't hold up.....we have Cam, Tolbert, and cheap RB to get us through those couple games he misses......and that trio would be more fearsome than most attacks. We can get through small stretches with that and be fine.

OL play was so bad this year....it probably is unfair to nitpick any RB too heavily. I don't think any RB was as bad as they looked. That is where we need to focus....not on how good our backup to whoever are technical #1 RB is.

Think with the new GM he will sort the RB situation out. maybe not how I see it but he will find a way to change the look of it. I am more worried now about our OL and think I will spend my time not debating this old RB debate any longer.

#88 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:03 PM

Just like Rivera demoted lafell in favor of legs and then by the end of the season lafell was starting. So yeah, I can see how Rivera doesn't make bonehead decisions.


Legatron had a clear role....line up players in a new scheme with no offseason. That is why he was on the field....

It wasn't boneheaded...LaFell didn't show to be good enough for Chud not to have someone on the field making sure the real talent knew what to do.

#89 ThunderKatt

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:08 PM

Legatron had a clear role....line up players in a new scheme with no offseason. That is why he was on the field....

It wasn't boneheaded...LaFell didn't show to be good enough for Chud not to have someone on the field making sure the real talent knew what to do.

you cab buy that all you want but lefell put up similar numbers as des his rookie year with clausen. So you can believe that hoopla Rivera spouts as his excuse for bringing in legs. He just fired an assistant coach to cover his ass, Rivera always has an excuse for why he does things instead of manning up. Phuck Ron.

He should of just made legs a positions coach cuz lafell still out up better numbers so I'm not buying it that legs was a positions guru that couodnt get separate with his elite speed.

#90 Marguide

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:09 PM

Again you are saving nothing since you spend money and get nothing in return. At least if you pay him you have him to use. And frankly what makes you think that Stewart could run 250 times with no issues. And that is what it would take if you gave Stewart most of Williams carries.


Don't get me wrong, I wish we could find a way to keep DWill, as I don't trust only having Stew and Tolbert. That formula to me says Cam will probably continue to be our leading rusher, unless someone like the guy called up from the practice squad (#36, can't remember his name) really comes on to supplement Stew.

But I'm trying to look at it objectively and from the standpoint of a team that has more needs than it can fill in 1 draft, and in a year in which cap dollars are going to be at a premium. Given the choice between going with Stew, Tolbert and maybe #36 along with a nice safety or RG in FA, or no safety/RG, but we have DWill added to the mix, I think I would take the former.

And as to savings, yeah, you've already spent the money to buy the car, but you are going to have to spend a lot more if you want to keep it running, and you have a newer car sitting in the garage. Oh, and the roof needs fixing by the way.


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