Posted January 27, 2013 Unless the college and high school games completely revert back to 80's style offenses, the hybrid/dual thread QB is here to stay. You can either figure out a way to make that an advantage for your team, or you can hold onto antiquated beliefs and try to find a traditional QB in the ever diminishing pool of those type of QBs. Every year, college QBs that play in pro style offense are overrated and guys that come from these innovative offenses are penalized. Yet year after year those pro style QBs bust and the hybrid QBs are starting to flourish. i fully agree with your first two paragraphs but that last one your ingoring history on, dual threat QBs including micheal Vick have been for the most part complete busts until now its the reason why people are saying dual threat QBs won't work without an improved passing game, NFL defenses are just too good for any QB to think they can just run on them, it's a major injury waiting to happen like Vick, Culpepper and now RG3 you have to have a passing game to excel in the NFL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 28, 2013 i fully agree with your first two paragraphs but that last one your ingoring history on, dual threat QBs including micheal Vick have been for the most part complete busts until now its the reason why people are saying dual threat QBs won't work without an improved passing game, NFL defenses are just too good for any QB to think they can just run on them, it's a major injury waiting to happen like Vick, Culpepper and now RG3 you have to have a passing game to excel in the NFL I don't want to speak for someone else. But I think when Teeray said "innovative offenses", he just wasn't speaking about the Option or Option QB's who could run. He was probably also speaking about many of the spread (and you can throw in Kelly's hurry up) offenses and their concepts, that even QB's like Brady and Peyton Manning, along with coaches as Belechick are using now. The spread started in the college ranks as well, and New England has adapted elements of Kelly's innovative hurry up offense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 28, 2013 i know because they got smart and stopped running. remember that high powered offense(scored the most points ever, patriots passed them in 2007) the vikings had in 1998. randall cunningham led that team to the nfc championship and should have won if randy would have caught that deep ball. who would have known that randall could be that good at passing no one because most times he was running. when he stopped running he became a superbowl worthy qb. he had 34 passing tds to only 1 rushing td. that was his best year. same thing happen with mcnabb when he went to the superbowl. both qbs had superbowl years when they ran for the least yards in there careers. hey maybe newton can be that special guy who has 38passing tds with about 16 rushing tds and win it all....i actually think he can do it...but i think he will end up getting hurt before he could do it. but he is big and durable so who knows man...... Cam just played 2 complete seasons with no injuries. The years he is working with the least talent and had to run more. With a good draft this year we might see a 9ers' type offense where he runs only when there is nothing down field and lane wide open. Hopefully the OL can be consistent because we got manhandled by the Broncos' defense while they got manhandled by the Ravens OL in the playoffs. I got jealous watching the Ravens OL operate. I have this feeling in the next 2 years, starting next year, we'll be a major force in the playoffs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 28, 2013 Wait a minute, Cam can be very accurate. We've seen him do this multiple times. I just hope/wish he wants to be better in that area. Particularly throwing with anticipation. Don't get me wrong, Cam is an accurate passer even in his down years. But there about just 2 or 3 QBs in the league who are just gifted when it comes to throwing the football and don't need that much fundamental. Aaron rodgers, RG3, and maybe Payton are like that. Those guys rarely throw wobbles and they're always accurate even when they miss. And they'll complete 60% of their passes even with the worse OL play. The Louisville QB Teddy Bridgewater is also like that too. Very gifted thrower of the football. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 28, 2013 Don't get me wrong, Cam is an accurate passer even in his down years. But there about just 2 or 3 QBs in the league who are just gifted when it comes to throwing the football and don't need that much fundamental. Aaron rodgers, RG3, and maybe Payton are like that. Those guys rarely throw wobbles and they're always accurate even when they miss. And they'll complete 60% of their passes even with the worse OL play. The Louisville QB Teddy Bridgewater is also like that too. Very gifted thrower of the football. I'm going to have to disagree with you here. RG3 is not a legitimate pocket passer at this stage of his career. And if he played on the Panthers in 2012, he'd be worse than Cam, with the Panthers maybe winning 3-5 games. He had a very good Rookie year. And I'm glad for him. But please don't flatter/overrate him like that. Cousins was beating him out in training camp, so/till they catered the offense to him. Despite RG3's lofty QB rating, he was the beneficiary of a gimmick offense (one that you talk about so much, but curiously didn't realize that RG3 benefited from so much) and a strong run game. That's ironic. RG3 was a one read/one zone, quick, short throw QB, where most of his plays were ran off of Zone reads, play actions, bootlegs, rolls out, misdirection and a lot of motion out of the Pistol. RG3 didn't have to read defenses the way they used him (or Cam did/does), and he was usually making short yardage throws (many behind the line of scrimmage), or to wide open receivers over the middle or down field. The Skins/Shanahan's zone blocking scheme (i.e. their run game), provided RG3, the pistol and their seemingly limitless misdirections, a multitude of ways to keep defenses off guard. Because of this, RG3 many times threw to receivers (for TD's or large gains, even on short yardage passing) who were wide open, with out a defender seemingly within 15 yards. Bad example! Regarding Cam's accuracy, and other great QB's: You keep forgetting, that Peyton Manning had about 28 interceptions his Rookie season, and looked how he worked out? And Aaron Rogers?He didn't start for years, and sat behind Farve. How bad would he had been, if he started with the Panthers right out of college? Drew Brees was unimpressive his first several years in the league as well. And didn't find true success, till he went to New Orleans. Get my drift? So let's see how Cam progresses next year, especially after his stellar end of his 2012? Based off what I've seen, I have no doubt, that Cam can be an excellent, accurate, NFL passer. Even now, he makes some great throws into tight windows (for example, that I've never seen RG3 and most NFL QB's make). And Greg Cossell (of NFL films), agrees and continually raves about Cam as a drop back/pocket QB and his future. Cam just needs more consistency. The tools are already there. He's not going to be Dan Marino overnight. And Remember, he's playing better now at this stage, than most of the very good and elite QB's did when they first came into the league. Let RG3, Kaepernick and Wilson (as far as the "hot" new guys), play on the Panthers last year, and see how well they would have done. More importantly Cam wants to be great, and should put the work in. So I don't understand why you want to limit his possibilities so young. Any QB can look good with a excellent Offensive line. And Cam, frankly didn't have one last year, to add to the list. So let's cool off on what you're saying (especially when you were so dead wrong about RG3) regarding Cam's possibilities. . Note: I very rarely EVER see Cam throw wobbly balls or non spirals. What Panther games are you watching? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 28, 2013 The NFL as an organization from the front office to the team offices to the coaches to the players to the fans are the most conservative areas of football known to man. Innovation in football starts from the lower levels (college, sometimes even high school) and works its way UP the chain with the heaviest resistance to that innovation coming from the NFL. Its just a fact of football life. Then if that's the case the NFL hasn't been allowing it's best talent on the field but rather tradition. That's why every sports have it's Michael Jordan, Pele, Gretzky, Serena, Babe Ruth while the NFL just have debates every year of who was the greatest. Maybe the best player is an all around player that can run and throw but because of the NFL exclusivity that player never existed. We're now just seeing a glimpse of possibility with the likes of Cam & kaepernick. Imagine this, what if Adrian Peterson were a gifted passer as well. The possibility. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 28, 2013 Out of interest why has Luck been lumped as an unathletic 'pocket passer'? Is it because he's white? Check out his Combine numbers then shut the fug up. Well if someone is 7 foot tall and work at McDonald's he is just a McDonald worker, not a center for the NY Knicks. That's the point I'm arguing. The idea of forcing players not to use their natural talent for the sake of being called pocket passers. Luck can easily run the read option and add an extra dimension to his team but because he is white they think it's below him. And we all know once he use the read option his license of being compared to Payton will be revoked and nobody would want that. Right!? But I have the feeling, at some point in Luck's career when the option game really starts dominating the league someone will incorporate it in his game. No reason not to. The age of throwing the ball away when no one's open down field with a wide open lane is approaching it's end. QBs will not get away with leaving so many first downs on the field. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 28, 2013 Out of interest why has Luck been lumped as an unathletic 'pocket passer'? Is it because he's white? Check out his Combine numbers then shut the fug up. Yeah. It's pretty silly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 28, 2013 Well if someone is 7 foot tall and work at McDonald's he is just a McDonald worker, not a center for the NY Knicks. That's the point I'm arguing. The idea of forcing players not to use their natural talent for the sake of being called pocket passers. Luck can easily run the read option and add an extra dimension to his team but because he is white they think it's below him. And we all know once he use the read option his license of being compared to Payton will be revoked and nobody would want that. Right!? But I have the feeling, at some point in Luck's career when the option game really starts dominating the league someone will incorporate it in his game. No reason not to. The age of throwing the ball away when no one's open down field with a wide open lane is approaching it's end. QBs will not get away with leaving so many first downs on the field. Oh good grief. Who the heck is "forcing someone not to use their natural talents"? That's one of the silliest things I've read on on here in a while :rolleyes: And again we have the same "game is changing" stuff that's people have been saying for years. What's especially goofy about it is people act like mobile quarterbacks are something new. Those of us old enough to remember guys like Fran Tarkenton know better. No doubt someone will say "but the quarterbacks now are better athletes than those back then". Indeed they are. So are the linebackers, defensive tackles, tight ends, offensive linemen and pretty much every other position on the field. The only actual change I've seen is the game is evolving more and more toward passing, so the ability to be an effective passer is more important than ever. If you can also run, that's great, but rely on it too much and you risk shortening your career. If you're a great runner but a lousy passer, you'll be lucky to have much of a career at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 28, 2013 i fully agree with your first two paragraphs but that last one your ingoring history on, dual threat QBs including micheal Vick have been for the most part complete busts until now its the reason why people are saying dual threat QBs won't work without an improved passing game, NFL defenses are just too good for any QB to think they can just run on them, it's a major injury waiting to happen like Vick, Culpepper and now RG3 you have to have a passing game to excel in the NFL Vick never got injured down field. All his injuries came by bad OL play in the back field. Culpepper was not a bust. He was an elite thrower of the football. Who else? What other dual threat QBs in this long NFL history who were bust? Well, in this past 5 years alone I would say every single pocket passer were total bust. From #1 picks like palmer, linart, quinn to weedens, grossmans, clausens. Seriously, any successful pocket passers the last 5 years. I can't name one. While you're referring to 10 year vets like culpepper & vick. Is that all you got? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
