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YAY NC Tea Party!


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#61 twylyght

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:59 PM

Answer my question first and stop trying to change the subject.


The purpose of the question was to illustrate the fallicy of your argument of course. The democratic platform is not in support of drone attacks on American civilians on American soil... yet, their leadership has opted to pursue that. Clearly their base does not agree with their duely elected leadership. It doesn't change the principles upon which they supposedly stand.

Try again?

#62 twylyght

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:03 PM

You forgot to say how the military draft and selective service need to be abolished, as they are not voluntary, but other than that you have a great plan for turning us back into a nation of poor farmers. A truly free market would have led to a total collapse of the nation many, many times and also prevented us from becoming the greatest nation on earth. It's already so free that banks can collude with the wealthy to steal OUR nations wealth for their own benefit; we actually need a LOT more control over the process of the economy and anyone who actually looks at the real world instead of inside an Ayn Rand fantasy novel understands this. There's a reason the American Dream is dying, and it has nothing to do with worker productivity or welfare. Our wealth is hidden from us, preventing us from reinvesting in education and infrastructure and everything else a society needs to succeed.


It is far easier to talk about what the Constitution allows than what it disallows as that is the nature of its design.

I've not argued for the draft and neither has the Tea Party.
A free market has seemed to work quite well for Hong Kong. Fail #2
The Fed is a coalition of Banks in collusion with government rather than the converse. Fail #3

Any notion that what we have today is an actual free market is laughable. Ultimate FAIL.

Try again?

#63 Cage

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:12 PM

Do you support drone strikes on American citizens on American soil?


Why the fug does that even matter? It's a non issue bc it wouldn't be constitutional to do that. That's why Holder didn't give that idiot Rand Paul the time of day when he first brought it up. And then Paul's stupid ass spent 13 hours droning on on about something that wouldn't even happen in the first place.

#64 Delhommey

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:24 PM

The purpose of the question was to illustrate the fallicy of your argument of course. The democratic platform is not in support of drone attacks on American civilians on American soil... yet, their leadership has opted to pursue that. Clearly their base does not agree with their duely elected leadership. It doesn't change the principles upon which they supposedly stand.

Try again?


So now you want me to do all the work linking to the multiple conservative and tea party backed politicians still looking to do the exact same thing as Fla.? Just so you can try and weasel out of that one? No thanks.

By the way, the drug testing is a pretty clear violation of the Constitution, but trust me, you won't hear a single Tea Party member bring that up since it seemingly is against minorities in their brains.

#65 GOOGLE RON PAUL

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:29 PM

no true tea partier would (insert any dumb poo they've proposed that twylyght doesn't want to have to defend)

#66 twylyght

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:38 PM

I will give you the cliff notes.

1) If making social security voluntary resulted in even a 5% reduction in Social Security it would result in a smaller economic output of around 63 billion dollars and would cost the economy around 400,000 jobs. These losses would also be disproportional to rural areas who would be hit the hardest and can not afford to take that kind of hit. That is the economic impact, that doesn't even take into account the middle to lower class people who wouldn't volunteer because they need to feed their families and pay their mortgage that would end up homeless once they leave the workforce. But of course you could make the argument that feeding your family or paying your mortgage would not be "responsible". What the Tea Party doesn't seem to realize is that Social Security is not just a social safety net for quality of life, it is also an economic safety net.

2) Obamacare didn't really do anything to consumers except mandate that they have insurance. So before Obamacare health care was voluntary and the people that were punished for those who chose not to have it were the "people that have otherwise been responsible" who had insurance or paid their bills, only to have them priced outrageously to recoup the people who did not have insurance and didn't pay their medical bills.

3) If the banks were not bailed out, the smaller banks did not have the capital to assume the bigger bank's assets and liabilities (therefore free market principles would have destroyed the economy because there was no one else big enough to take over their market share, thus "too big to fail"), therefore without government assistance on the merger of some of the larger banks, asset relief by the government, and the government capitalizing the banks to loosen credit, you would have seen a literal evaporation of most of the nation's wealth, retirement packages disappearing, and frozen credit. Business rely very heavily on bank credit to pay their payroll. Between the frozen credit and the loss of wealth it would have resulted in unemployment of as high as, 50%-60% and would have reduced the US to a third world country virtually overnight.

Why do I say that? There has been only one major crisis that the government did not step in and assist the banks or force the other banks to assist, it is now known as the "Great Depression" which was actually a smaller shock to the system than the one we experienced in 2008 yet resulted in unemployment of 24% overall and 30% for non farm workers compared to a max of @10% and 10.5% respectively in this current recession. Plus the bailout actually reduced the decades of stagnation that this type of shock would likely cause.

Not to mention that the reason we got there was because of the free market taking advantage of deregulation and throwing consumer protection out the window in favor of big profits, which is the achilles heel of free market without checks and balances (i.e. regulation). Study after study also show that the Community Reinvestment Act did not cause the housing bubble.

4) The government did not subsidize high risk loans nor did they force banks to create them, banks set their own lending standards.

5) without federal loans on education you effectively set up a Plutocracy by making sure that the only people who can afford to get a higher education is those who come from a wealthier background.

6) Medical care has to be propped up because illness and health care contribute to 62% of all bankruptcies in the US. Without medical assistance that number would be even higher and there would be even more bankruptcies.

So yeah, it is pretty clear that every point you made would be disastrous to the US economy and quality of life and I stand by my earlier statement

http://www.minneapol...lay.cfm?id=4136
http://www.pnhp.org/...ruptcy-2009.pdf
http://www.dailyyond...2011/12/18/3649
http://srdc.msstate..../graphmaps.html
http://www.project-s...g-toward-sanity
http://www.factcheck...and-bankruptcy/
http://www.gao.gov/n...tems/d09782.pdf
http://www.fhfa.gov/...hars9132010.pdf
http://www.ccc.unc.e...nnieFreddie.php
http://research.stlo...12/2012-005.pdf
http://www.time.com/...2136864,00.html


1) It isn't the federal government's job to protect people from themselves, nor is it the federal government's job to provide a life savings plan. It is the federal government's job to protect the rights of its citizens as outlined in its structure and enumerated powers. To do more than that is picking and choosing which segments of the populace are important and which are not. That automatically introduces an institutionalized preferential treatment/exclusion that is the antithesis of liberty.

2) Insisting on having a permit to exist is an anathema to liberty. Of course it is understandable to want to fix a broken system of irresponsible people breaking a system built on the insurance model. My contention is that putting the band-aid of Obamacare (or Romneycare, or anything else that would bear a different name but the same system) to address irresponsible behavior is addressing a symptom, not the problem. The problem is allowing irresponsible behavior to exist without consequences (anyone that's worked in the ER can tell you exactly how this plays out). Responsibility is the flip side of the coin of liberty. That is a simple fact of existence no matter how one tries to make it otherwise.

3) False... patently. I happen to work for one of the fiscally responsible banks that would have thrived where the others should have failed. The answer to fixing cronysim isn't "more and better" cryonyism. The Great Depression was not a singular event caused by banking institutions. It was a series of events that exacerbated a number of issues. Like almost all things for the 20th century American federal government, a fix for what was supposed to be a temporary solution ended up being a permanent program.

4) The Affordable Housing Act incentevized risky loans to introduce a non-free market entity into an already favored system. To compete with your peers, you now had to take advantage of this wonderful new program or be hung out to dry by your competitors. What you are arguing is an academic view on a real-world issue. If you'd worked in the field, you'd know the difference.

5) State-sponsored loans are the reason why tuition prices are so high today. No one seems to question why the cost of tuition rose exponentially with the advent of government assistance. The value of a collegiate degree is reduced to almost nothing in the real-world today as a direct result of the lowering of standards for said degrees. Again, rather than slapping a band-aid on the symptom, we need to address the actual issue at hand.

6) Medical assistance cost has risen dramatically for a number of reasons over the past few decades. One prime example of how it is broken is how the ER is abused and the costs incurred due to frivolous litigation. For a simple diagnosis, thousands of dollars of tests now have to be run for a condition that runs less than 1/10th of 1 percent of cases coming into the door. Moreover, if you don't have health insurance, the hospital has to pick up the tab as they are not allowed to refuse service. Moreover, that is why people without insurance go to the ER for a cracked nail. Hyperbole? Yeah... but actually not that far off. If you doubt that, ask a triage nurse to get the straight skinny. Another example is GPs fleeing the state of NC because they cannot afford malpractice insurance largely brought on due to frivolous lawsuits. Another example is the concept of "pre-existing conditions" allowed to defeat the purpose of insurance to begin with. At that point, it is no longer insurance, but an entitlement program for merely existing at the expense of everyone else. Not necessarily a bad idea in concept, but ultimately doomed to fail due to a demonstrated history of abuse.

Again, these are the reasons that such things are not the purview of government, but of community. That is a key factor in what distinguishes libertarians from democrats. A governmental program invokes "charity" by forcing it at the barrel of a gun for what it deems to be "charity worthy". An actual charity allows the people to actually decide not only what is worthy of charity, but holds its institutions accountable for its actions. I challenge you to find any such accountability in DC.

What is disastrous for an economy is institutionalized governmental cronyism, not the antithesis of it (an ACTUAL free market).

#67 twylyght

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:41 PM

So now you want me to do all the work linking to the multiple conservative and tea party backed politicians still looking to do the exact same thing as Fla.? Just so you can try and weasel out of that one? No thanks.

By the way, the drug testing is a pretty clear violation of the Constitution, but trust me, you won't hear a single Tea Party member bring that up since it seemingly is against minorities in their brains.


Institutionalized welfare prgrams are a clear violation of the Constitution as are all victimless crimes. Again, asking the FOUNDERS of the movement shows that it is NOT ABOUT SOCIAL ISSUES, but about FINANCIAL ISSUES. Hence, your basis in argument is a de facto straw man built on such a premise.

#68 Delhommey

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:55 PM

So it's ok to clearly violate the Constitution (4th amendment) in order to combat welfare as welfare is a violation of the Constitution in your eyes? Even not considering the increase in spending.

Makes perfect sense then.

/awaits chatbot response

Oh and "strawman". don't think that word means what you think it means.

#69 twylyght

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:40 AM

So it's ok to clearly violate the Constitution (4th amendment) in order to combat welfare as welfare is a violation of the Constitution in your eyes? Even not considering the increase in spending.

Makes perfect sense then.

/awaits chatbot response

Oh and "strawman". don't think that word means what you think it means.


Again.... you've not gotten any official Tea Party platform to support supporting drug crimes as being legitimate as it is a SOCIAL ISSUE and not a FISCAL ISSUE.

strawman noun 1. a person used as a cover for some questionable activity [syn: front man] 2.
a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted [syn: straw man]

Ergo, your argument that the Tea Party platform being something other that a fiscal issue is a fallacious argument as I demonstrated in the previous posts with respect to Democratic leaders not abiding by Democratic platforms. I don't think I can dumb this down any further without pictures.

Now, if you were to argue about a state government's ability to invoke welfare programs as allowed under teh 10th amendment, then you are speaking of another issue entirely. At this point, it is the purview of the elected body to put conditions on whatever services they provide so long as they do not infringe the rights guaranteed by the superceding federal Constitution. As a state welfare is a voluntary program, one summarily submits themselves to the contract of accpeting said services from the state.

It is the same logic as "you want my help? you follow my rules." That is legal so long as it does not impose a sanction based on a state of being rather than act of volition. If California wants to take its social programs to new heights and give people the world, I say let them.... they simply have to afford their own success/demise rather than hold its neighboring states accountable for its own mistakes when things go badly.

#70 Delhommey

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:14 AM

So if it's a fiscal issue, then why increase state spending on welfare? You keep trying to avoid this, not surprisingly.

#71 twylyght

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:36 AM

So if it's a fiscal issue, then why increase state spending on welfare? You keep trying to avoid this, not surprisingly.


AGAIN - Elected candidate not abiding by Tea Party platform. Not supporting candidate in said endeavour with respect to federal budget. If he were in NC, I would not support him here either. The welfare program as it exists needs to be overhauled completely before conducting tweaks like this. Making it more localized will make it directly answerable to the immediate community supporting said program. Hence, unacceptable abuses of system becomes FAR LESS LIKELY when you know the peers that are using the system.

#72 Delhommey

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:08 AM

Who called "No True Scotsman" in 5 pages?

#73 teeray

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:38 AM

1) It isn't the federal government's job to protect people from themselves, nor is it the federal government's job to provide a life savings plan. It is the federal government's job to protect the rights of its citizens as outlined in its structure and enumerated powers. To do more than that is picking and choosing which segments of the populace are important and which are not. That automatically introduces an institutionalized preferential treatment/exclusion that is the antithesis of liberty.

2) Insisting on having a permit to exist is an anathema to liberty. Of course it is understandable to want to fix a broken system of irresponsible people breaking a system built on the insurance model. My contention is that putting the band-aid of Obamacare (or Romneycare, or anything else that would bear a different name but the same system) to address irresponsible behavior is addressing a symptom, not the problem. The problem is allowing irresponsible behavior to exist without consequences (anyone that's worked in the ER can tell you exactly how this plays out). Responsibility is the flip side of the coin of liberty. That is a simple fact of existence no matter how one tries to make it otherwise.

3) False... patently. I happen to work for one of the fiscally responsible banks that would have thrived where the others should have failed. The answer to fixing cronysim isn't "more and better" cryonyism. The Great Depression was not a singular event caused by banking institutions. It was a series of events that exacerbated a number of issues. Like almost all things for the 20th century American federal government, a fix for what was supposed to be a temporary solution ended up being a permanent program.

4) The Affordable Housing Act incentevized risky loans to introduce a non-free market entity into an already favored system. To compete with your peers, you now had to take advantage of this wonderful new program or be hung out to dry by your competitors. What you are arguing is an academic view on a real-world issue. If you'd worked in the field, you'd know the difference.

5) State-sponsored loans are the reason why tuition prices are so high today. No one seems to question why the cost of tuition rose exponentially with the advent of government assistance. The value of a collegiate degree is reduced to almost nothing in the real-world today as a direct result of the lowering of standards for said degrees. Again, rather than slapping a band-aid on the symptom, we need to address the actual issue at hand.

6) Medical assistance cost has risen dramatically for a number of reasons over the past few decades. One prime example of how it is broken is how the ER is abused and the costs incurred due to frivolous litigation. For a simple diagnosis, thousands of dollars of tests now have to be run for a condition that runs less than 1/10th of 1 percent of cases coming into the door. Moreover, if you don't have health insurance, the hospital has to pick up the tab as they are not allowed to refuse service. Moreover, that is why people without insurance go to the ER for a cracked nail. Hyperbole? Yeah... but actually not that far off. If you doubt that, ask a triage nurse to get the straight skinny. Another example is GPs fleeing the state of NC because they cannot afford malpractice insurance largely brought on due to frivolous lawsuits. Another example is the concept of "pre-existing conditions" allowed to defeat the purpose of insurance to begin with. At that point, it is no longer insurance, but an entitlement program for merely existing at the expense of everyone else. Not necessarily a bad idea in concept, but ultimately doomed to fail due to a demonstrated history of abuse.

Again, these are the reasons that such things are not the purview of government, but of community. That is a key factor in what distinguishes libertarians from democrats. A governmental program invokes "charity" by forcing it at the barrel of a gun for what it deems to be "charity worthy". An actual charity allows the people to actually decide not only what is worthy of charity, but holds its institutions accountable for its actions. I challenge you to find any such accountability in DC.

What is disastrous for an economy is institutionalized governmental cronyism, not the antithesis of it (an ACTUAL free market).


1) First of all,your argument is ideological and hyperbolic. It may have been an argument to use in 1935 when social security was being publicly debated, passed by a democratically elected legislative branch, signed by a democratically elected President, and upheld by the Constitutionally created Supreme Court, but it is useless now because social security is a part of our government and our economic system. My point was your vision for it would be disastrous to the US economy and quality of life based on the current system.

But to your larger point of what the government is and isn't supposed to do; section 8 of the constitution explicitly says:

The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises to pay the debts and provide for the common defense, and general welfare of the United States.

And the Constitution also created the Supreme Court for a system of checks and balances. So with that in mind check out the Supreme Court rulings on Helvering vs. Davis, Steward Machine Company vs. Davis, and Carmichael vs. Southern Coal & Coke Co. and Gulf States Pape

2) That is as high minded and detached from reality as the democratic utopia. It is also weird that you think that 62% of our bankruptcies being contributed to or caused by illness and health care is "no consequences". If someone is poor and has a catastrophic medical event and is in need of immediate medical care, what should their "consequences" be for going to the ER? Death? Imprisonment? Again that isn't liberty or freedom, that is plutocracy.

3) It isn't false. Your bank, if it was truly "responsible", would not have had the capital, capacity, or desire to buy all the toxic loans that caused the 5 largest investment banks in the world to fail. If the 5 largest investment banks in the world plus AIG failed all at once, our nation's wealth would have evaporated and credit markets would have froze and we would be third world status and looking at 50% to 60% unemployment virtually overnight.

If you need that to be false for your own mental well being then so be it. Continue to believe that if the ten financial institutions that held 77% of our nation's assets were allowed to fail some little guy would just step up and everything would be okay.

I don't like the bank bailout and I don't like the fact in the past we deregulated to allow these mega banks that control so much of our nation's assets to even exist, but the reality is that the bank bailout had to happen or else the US economy would have cratered.

4) You lose credibility on this when you don't even know what act you are talking about. It was the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) that incentized banks to make loans available to more people.

But by incentivize you must mean "The Act instructs the appropriate federal financial supervisory agencies to encourage regulated financial institutions to help meet the credit needs of the local communities in which they are chartered, consistent with safe and sound operation"

"Consistent with safe and sound operation". The subprime lending was in direct violation of CRA not because of it.

The government does not set lending standards to the banks. The banks set their own lending practices Lets get one thing straight, the banks gave risky loans because it made them a sh!t ton of money. And the consumers they gave loans to may have been risky but the free market had devised a plan that they thought would alleviate themselves from any risk, by packaging them in derivatives and getting insurance on those loans.

The derivative market was actually a great and sustainable idea, but then the banks were given more and more rope and ended up hanging themselves chasing profits instead of insuring consumer protections.

Again, almost every study has shown that CRA did not create the housing bubble or the mortgage meltdown. As a matter of fact, 50% of the subprime mortgages held were by private mortgage companies that were not under the CRA umbrella.

5) None of what you posted takes away from the fact that without government loans you are taking away the prospects of higher education away from those who cannot afford it. Taking away government loans and grants only ensures that people from the wealthiest families get access to higher education. That is again plutocracy.

6) Some of what you are saying I agree with especially in regards to frivolous lawsuits and liability insurance. I wish that the government would have seized the opportunity during the debate on Obamacare to include tort reform. Obama said he would be open to it if it were included in the Affordable Health Care Act but no one really even attempted to include it.

BUt I am not sure what you are trying to say when you lament the fact that hospitals are not allowed to refuse service. Are you saying that they should refuse service if someone is dying in the hospital? When the ambulance races to your house because you are having a heart attack should they run a credit check first? Do you need to bring bank statements with you to the ER?

Or should you have $30,000 on hand and readily available "just in case something catastophic happens?"

As far as people going to ER for basic care, if they were insured no one, especially hospitals, would give a poo what they were coming for because it would actually result in higher revenue and profits. The lack of insurance amongst so many Americans is the problem, not the symptom (to borrow a phrase from you).

And here is my main problem with all of your arguments

You soap box about liberty and freedom, but you actually hate liberty and freedom. You only like your idea of what liberty and freedom means. And if someone else doesn't agree with what you believe it to mean, you view them as opponents to liberty and freedom or in violation of the constitution as you understand it.

The truth is that freedom doesn't mean we always get our way, we vote for the candidates that we feel upholds our vision of America, but in a democracy your vision isn't always majority opinion. And when our ideals are no longer the majority we feel like our freedoms and liberties are being taken from us, but the truth is that it is the result of freedom and democracy not the antithesis of it.

The Constitution that you have expounded upon is the document that set up this system of democracy. You love the Constitution just not what the Constitution has created in terms of current governance. But that is freedom,.

#74 twylyght

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 05:36 PM

Who called "No True Scotsman" in 5 pages?


I'll get to teeray in a bit... in the meantime I'll simply let this be another highlight in your lack of understanding in spite of your assumptions otherwise.

1) I've made no ad hominem attacks on you questioning your Democrat credentials. Do a google search on your poo before you put yourself out there yet again with yet another misnomer.

2) If you were actually paying attention, I was talking about how this deviates from the national platform as originally set out from the outset of my assertions, not page 5.

3) Saying that the founders of the Tea Party aren't actually tea partiers is like a Spaniard invoking a "No True Scotsman" style of rhetoric about a Scotsman. You and others have clearly opted for the misinformation of a sensationalized press rather than looking in the horse's mouth when I even gave a simple link for ease of understanding. You've opted for the path of willful ignorance.

#75 cookinwithgas

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:41 PM

I'd like the give some kudos out to the really smart people on this board, and to twylight for giving them the chance to show how smart they are.


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