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Inconvenient Truth GM Edition(Hurney vs Gettleman)


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#1 panther4life

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:14 PM

I NEVER TYPE IN ALL CAPS BUT BEFORE SOME OF YOU BLINDLY RAGE I NEED YOUR ATTENTION:

**THIS THREAD IS SIMPLY STATING I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY MOVES MADE THAT DISTINGUISH GETTLEMAN FROM HURNEY YET**

Maybe some of you guys can enlighten me on why I am wrong or maybe just maybe some of you will confirm the sentiments I have to be true. I am going to post rebuttals that I see forthcoming so I don't have to come back and address them later.

What changes have been made than can be attributed solely to Gettleman at this point?
He has the same head coach and the entire front office has remained intact from the scouts to the cap manager, to the directors of scouting and pro personnel.

So far Gettleman has added these guys from other teams:
Chase Blackburn
Drayton Florence
Tedd Ginn Jr.
Mike Mitchell
D.J Moore
Colin Cole
James Shaw
^^^
Can anyone of you say these are brilliant signings that would have never happened if Hurney was here? No you can't because they have not played a down for us yet and they are the exact bottom tier guys many would bitch about if Hurney was the one to sign them. It won't stop some of you from rejoicing about these just like it did not stop many of you who were jizzing over Nakumara signing last offseason.

Retained from the previous regime were
Dwan Edwards
Captain Munnerlyn
Jordan Senn
Derek Anderson
Ben Hartstock
Richie Brockel
^^^
minus Captain-all of those guys were brought in from other teams by Hurney. Hurney never paid those guys a dime more than Gettleman signed them for.

Some would argue that Hurney would have paid way too much for Munnerlyn if given the chance.
Really, as evidenced by what? Last 2 times I remember Nickel corners chasing more money than they deserved(Richard Marshall and Ricky Manning Jr.) Hurney let them walk.

As a matter of a fact many players were allowed to walk in the past for more money(previous to 2011) contrary to popular belief on here.
Mushin Muhammad,Will Witherspoon,Doug Evans, Deon Grant,Deshaun Foster, Marlon Mcree,and many others but thats just some names all of you should recognize.

2011 WAS JERRY RICHARDSON'S FAULT
Yes it was. He tanked 2010 and made us the worst team in football. Then to make matters worse the 90% of the handful of good players we had all became free agents in the same year! Hurney never let more than 2 core players hit the market at the same time ever before this. 6 of our 10 players worth keeping becoming free agents all at once was a major clusterfug that JR created and he's loving hearing the fan base blame Marty for his decisions.

In addition to the bad timing do you not think JR alienated a lot players without his lockout pie charts and such? The worst contracts are from the players who were the elite at their position in free agency that year (Charles Johnson, Jon Beason, and Deangelo WIlliams) and it wasn't even close.

Some of you need to wake up and smell the coffee and realize the obvious that happened form 2009-11.

"Yea well Gettleman is a genius, he knows how to play hardball and get these players to sign 1 year contracts while he try's them out".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If only the above was unique to Gettleman and not a league wide phenomenon due to the flat cap. Hell I have read some silly reports suggest collusion amongst the owners because of this.

Btw, for you guys love him for signing captain to a 1 year deal, must have forgotten the original offer was for 3 years and more money. Just got lucky that he tested the market and we signed D.J Moore while he bullshitted around.

"But Gettleman got us out of cap hell and still managed to make some signings happen..jeez can't please everyone I guess"..

I am not dissatisfied with the jobe he's done so far. Just not overly surpised by any of the moves made either, nor do they scream to me ohhh yea we def. have a new GM now.

"P4L your an idiot if you can't see that Gettleman dug us out of cap hell and signed some brilliant new pieces and kept Huney's lucky finds"

First of all cutting Gamble and Ron Edwards were no brainers that were alley oops from Hurney/Rob Rogers as they did not cause pushing any dead money into the future and save 10.4 million alone. Fug according to Clayton in feb. were only 11.8 over to begin with.

Secondly the rest of the room was created by robbing peter to pay paul. Yep all the restructures that saved us money just pushed that money into the future cap hits. This is what originally coined the name "HURNEY MAGIC" before it became a sarcastic dig on him. They ended up being no brainers for both sides when evaluating them logically.

I'll leave you with this: All I am trying to say is quit over exaggerating whether it be in your praise of Gettleman or your hatred for Hurney. Way too early to make any firm judgments yet.

Gettleman has not fuged up on anything yet, so naturally that gives him a leg up on Hurney who had many shortcomings over his 10 years here. At the same token he has not done anything to give anyone reason to believe that he his as great as some of your are making him out to be, and in all fairness its too early for him to have earned major praise.

Remember how many of us(I know I did anyway) were pumped about the Rivera hire and the future of the franchise before we even played a down in 2011? Fast foward to 2 years later and I was leading the bandwagon to have his ass canned. .........Not saying things with Gettleman will end up the same way, just saying experience should tell us that it's too early to judge him for better or worse at this point.

#2 Gucci Mane

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:21 PM

The fact that he waited for the market to settle prices down on players and got players like gross to take a paycut/restructure instead of giving unproven guys ridiculous contracs.

#3 Rubi

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:26 PM

Ok Gettleman brought in a guy who makes our return game relevant again. He played hardball with Munnerlyn and owned him. He brought in guys for pennies who have ability and who will help balance out our roster. I mean do you not realize the cap situation? Go try boxing with one hand tied behind your back and tell me how it goes.

#4 Dex

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:26 PM

The absence of a negative is a positive. That's the difference between Hurney and Getts.

#5 tiger7_88

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:27 PM

tl;dr

(If you don't see a difference already between Hurney and Gettleman, you are beyond help.)

#6 L-TownCat

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:43 PM

Gettleman has a leg up because of his ability to navigate a situation he didn't create. He had it dropped in his plate. On a short schedule he came in evaluated our roster studied our contracts and still managed to scout free agents and I'm just assuming here, he is prepared for the draft. These "names" that we brought in are light years ahead of what hurney looked for.

Hurneys downfall was that he was retained to long and his wounds were allowed to fester. Gettleman immediately gets the nod because he's new. He has improved his stock by doing things this offseason most of us thought were not possible.

#7 Mr. Scot

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:08 PM

Can anyone of you say these are brilliant signings that would have never happened if Hurney was here?


Did you observe the last several offseasons under Hurney?

If you actually think this offseason bears any resemblance whatsoever to those years, I'd say you probably didn't.

#8 KillerKat

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:16 PM

How the hell can you not see any moves that differentiate Gettleman from Hurney?

We were way over the cap due to Hurney and now we are under while adding free agents that will help our team WITHOUT OVER PAYING. He has already established a philosophy that states if a player is being overpaid, he will be cut or traded. He'll also give fair deals to players and if they want more, we will move on. He has no emotional attachment to players.

Hurney was the complete opposite. Giving out ridiculous contracts. Holding on to players he was emotionally invested in. He let the players control the contract negotiations. And most of his free agent signings left you saying "who the fug is this guy?". He did the complete opposite of what made sense.

Bottom line, Gettleman is in charge and Hurney was not. You have not been paying attention if you do not realize that.

#9 panther4life

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:16 PM

Did you observe the last several offseasons under Hurney?

If you actually think this offseason bears any resemblance whatsoever to those years, I'd say you probably didn't.


Marty Hurney took over as the General Manager in 2002. Here is a look at how he's drafted and molded our team through free agency since the departure of George Seifert.Here is what our roster looked like before he took over that year.
2002-
We had just lost 15 games in a row. But we actually had some decent pieces in place.
Offense
Receiving threats- Walls, Moose, and Donald Hayes were our biggest receiving threats. Walls and Moose had already proven themselves so their down years were not on them.

QB- 2nd year QB Weinke threw for nearly 3k yards but only completed 54% of his passes.

RB- The Biakabutuka experiment was coming to an end as he could not stay healthy. 29 Richard Huntley was our biggest threat at this point and we let him go as a free agent.

0-line-Our offensive line was not great. Turnstile Steussie was LT, Jeff Mitchell was our best o-lineman and Donnalley was servicable but 33 years old at RG. RT was Chris Terry and Jamar Nesbitt was our LG. Then of course we had a rookie special team monster named Steve Smith who took the ball in for a TD the first time he touched it.
Defense

Defensive Line- Another experiment was coming to an end and it was called Sean Gilbert. He eventually gave the spot up to Buckner and rookie Kris Jenkins saw some action with 11 starts and accumulating 2 sacks. Our best D-lineman at the time was Rucker who got 9 sacks and played like he actually cared.

Linebackers- Dan Morgan got 11 starts and was 5th on the team in tackles and proved he was going to be a beast. The other lb's sucked bad, I mean real bad,Hannibal Navies and Lester Towns were the names.

Secondary- Doug Evans our high priced free agents contract was up,Our previous years 1st round pick Rashard Anderson failed to earn the other starting spot. Then of course we Minter the proven vet(since 97) by this point and Deon Grant completed our safety tandem.

2002 Offseason

Key Free agency additons. 1.Mark Fields OLB
2.Al wallace(great rotational DE)
3.Terry Cousins cb-serviceable joruneyman CB who ended being our #1 CB
4.Rodney Peete, John Fox's prototype at QB. game manager who can hand the ball of cleanly.
Key loss
Doug Evans left this year
The Draft
2002 1st Rounder-2nd overall- Peppers DE. BPA and completed what would become a dominant D-line.
2nd rounder- Deshaun Foster RB, filled a huge need
3rd rounder-Will Witherspoon OLB, another huge need
4th rounder- Dante Wesley, again another huge need
from their on they just took fliers on bpa taking fasani,Heinrich and couple other non contributors

Now all of a sudden our Defense was deadly. With a front 7 of Rucker,Buckner,Jenkins,Peppers,Will Witherspoon,Dan Morgan, Mark Fields, and safties Mike Minter and Deon Grant behind them wow! Then of course Cousins and Reggie Howard were both just okay(both much better than Munnerlyn as starters btw). And Dante Wesley became the nickelback.

So great defense and still putrid offense. Even Steve Smith, Moose, and Wesley Walls could not overcome Rodney Peete the statue at QB. On top of that our newest RB, Foster got injured and never saw the field that year. Of course the offensive line got no upgrades so it still sucked too outside of Mitchell and Donnalley.

2002's team finished 7-9 and a capable offense away from being a superbowl threat.

2003 Offseason
Key Free Agency additions

1.Jake Delhomme, steve smiths new best friend.
2.Stephen Davis,John Fox's new best friend.
3.Ricky Prohel WR,Mr. clutch.
4.Doug Brzenski G, he was supposed to help the line and become the anchor at LG.


2003 Draft.
Round 1. Jordan Gross- Best lineman in team history
Round 2. Bruce Nelson G. (was supposed to be really good, hip injury killed him)
Round 3.Mike Seidman TE.-not bad, a new blocking threat for Fox's offense who has okay hands if needed
Round 3. B. Ricky Manning Jr. CB- Hurney traded up(collection of late round picks) to grab our new nickel back.
Round 4. Colin Branch S, flier on someone who may someday take Minters spot
Round 5.Kindal Moorhead DT, good depth pick and possible successor to Buckner. (spider bite or something fugged him up 1 year in training camp and never heard from again)
the rest is not worth mentioning

Result-Superbowl bound(damn you Kasay:()

2004 Offseason
Key Free agent signings
1.Brandon Short-good depth at LB, protection against the recently diagnosed Mark Fields who found out he had hodgkins disease before the superbowl run
2.Travis Claridge- another failed attempt at finding a new Guard

1st significant player leaves through free agency- Deon Grant goes to the Jags

2004 Draft
Round 1.Chris Gamble CB- Finally a great #1 Corner
Round 2. Keary Colbert WR- Moose's eventual replacement(well that was the idea at the time anyway)
Round 3.Travelle Wharton OL- Thank goodness the Steussie era is over. That jerk went to the bucs that year in free agency.
Round 4.Drew Carter- A tall skinny speedster at W.R.(its almost as if he knew Moose was going to go chase some money the next year and prepped for it with 2 W.R. picks)
last 2 picks sucked but what do you expect out a 6th and 7th rounder

2004 seasonResult- 7-9 record. Injuries demolished us.(Steve smith went down after 1 game, Stephen Davis,Deshaun Foster and Kris Jenkins were right behind him and the concussions started getting the best of Morgan)

2005 Offseason
Key Free agent signings.
1.Ken Lucas CB- solid corner to pair with Gamble
2.Mike Wahle G-highly touted guard from Green Bay
3.Chris Draft- good insurance for Dan Morgan
4.Marlon Mcree S- hard hitting safety
5.Idrees Bashir S- finally a replacement for Deon Grant?
6.Freddie Davis TE- wow is fox really considering using a TE?

05 losses-
1.Mushin Muhammed- got a big payday from the bears
2. Fields, damn cancer was back

2005 Draft
Round 1. Thomas Davis S.- A Vick spy, could play safety or LB and had the speed to chase Vick around
Round 2.Eric Shelton- thought to be a new powerback to take place of aging and oft injured Stephen Davis. Right idea but terrible pick
Round 3.Evan Mathis OG- lol go look at his other thread
Round 3b.Attayah Ellison pick we acquired from seattle in exchange for trading down 9 spots in the 2nd where we took Shelton, seatle got Lofa Tatupu
Round 4- Stefan Lefors QB- have no idea why, project i guess but that one
failed
Round 5-Adam Seward- poor mans Dan Connor
Round 5b.(compensatory pick)Hangman G- you should know about him

2005 season results
11-5 and deep playoff run only to lose the NFC championship to seattle

2006 Offseason
Key free agent signings
1.Kemo DT- fat space eating machine
2.Keyshawn Johnson-replacemnet for Moose
2.Damione Lewis DT- decent addition to the line
3.Justin Hartwig C- new starter to take Kevin Mitchells place

2006 players lost
1.Will witherspoon- got a stupid deal to play MLB in ST Louis
2.Ricky Manning Jr.-Chicago wanted him more than we did
3.Dante Wesley- see above
4.Marlon Mcree- San Diego snatched him up

2006 Draft
1.
1.Deangelo Williams RB- nice choice
2.Richard Marshall CB-replacement nickel and possible # 2 down the road
3. James Anderson-replacement for the departed Witherspoon
the rest sucked and no significant impact

2006 season result 8-8

2007 offseason
Key signings
none, well okay we did sign David Carr
Key loss
1.Keyshawn Johnson
2.Chris Draft

2007 Draft
Round 1.Jon Beason- great pick in the 1st again
Round 2. Dwayne Jarret- terrible pick in the 2nd again
Round 2b.Ryan Kaili- part of the beason trade down deal with the jets
Round 3. Charles Johnson- Awesome value pick
rest is forgettable

2007 season Tommy Jone epidemic hits the huddleand Kris Jenkins blows the hell up and demands trade.
season result 7-9

2008 offseason
Key free agency signings
1.Keydrick Vincent G- veteran mauler
2.Tyler Brayton- good additon to the d-line
3.D.J Hackett- well he sucked but hurney tried
about 5 others who were cheap and did not pan out

Key free agent losses
Not that they were missed but the Colbert and Drew Carter experiments ended

2008 Draft
Round 1. Jonathan Stewart
Round 1B. Jeff Otah- if only he could stay healthy
Round 3. Charles Godfrey
Round 3b. (for Jenkins from Jets) Dan Connor
Round 5. Gary Barnidge
Round 6. Nick Hayden DT
Round 7. Hilee Taylor DE
Round 7B. Geoff Schwartz G
Round 7c.Mackenzy Bernadeau G

2008 Results- were back! 12-4, then Jake Melts down against AZ.

2009 Offseason
quiet offseason, but we do give Jake a big deal to get his confidence back and franchise Peppers for the last time
Hangman goes to Buffalo

2009 Draft Hurneys worst draft ever
Rund 1. Traded for Otah
Round 2.(goodbye next years first)Everette Brown-panic pick in anticipation of losing Peppers next year
Round 2. Sherrod Martin
Round 3.Corey Irvin DT
Round 4.Mike Goodson
Round 4B.Tony Fiammeta (let the zod hype machine begin)
Round 5.Duke Robinson-well he fell like hell why not
Round 7. Captain Munnerlyn

2009 Season results 7-9 (oh yay were finally going to fire fox, okay well not yet got to prepare for the lockout now)


2010 Offseason
Roster purge continues and Peppers leaves for Chicago
2010 Draft
1.gave it away for Everette Brown
2.Jimmy Clausen- I foolishly rejoiced
3.Brandon Lafell- so far so good
3b.Armanti Edwards- why Hurney WHY??
4.Eric Norwood- meh
6.Greg Hardy-not sold yet, his run d is very bad
6b. Gettis- hopefully he'll recover fully and contribute next year
7. Pugh
couple more that are not in the picture anymore

Roster purge continues and Peppers leaves for Chicago
2010 Season result 2-14
John Fox says f.u Richardson and we get the last laugh because we end up with the # 1 pick and Cam Newton

2011
Fox gets canned(long overdue)
Rivera,Chud, and Mcdermott come aboard-Very happy, and relieved we did not seriouslt consider Greg Manusky

Key offseason signings
1.Ron Edwards-tears his pectormal muscle and we never see him
2.Olindo Mare- I wanted to hurt the guy as I was leaving the stadium after the Minnesota loss
3.Legadu Naane-
4.We keep every damn free agent we were worried about losing
5.Early in the season we sign Applewhite

2011 Draft Results
1.Cam Newton- Thank you very much
2.Armanti, :mad:
3.Mcclain
3b.Fua
4.Hogan
5.Pilares
couple others
7.Lee Ziemba

2011 result 6-10, but we are back on track and we finally have a franchise QB!!!

2012 TBD...

EDIT:meant to post this in the main forum, mod feel free/please to move it unless you feel like belongs in here.


I have been paying attention, trust me. I also am not naive enough to think JR did not play a major hand from 2009-2011.

#10 panther4life

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:19 PM

How the hell can you not see any moves that differentiate Gettleman from Hurney?

We were way over the cap due to Hurney and now we are under while adding free agents that will help our team WITHOUT OVER PAYING. He has already established a philosophy that states if a player is being overpaid, he will be cut or traded. He'll also give fair deals to players and if they want more, we will move on. He has no emotional attachment to players.

Hurney was the complete opposite. Giving out ridiculous contracts. Holding on to players he was emotionally invested in. He let the players control the contract negotiations. And most of his free agent signings left you saying "who the fug is this guy?". He did the complete opposite of what made sense.

Bottom line, Gettleman is in charge and Hurney was not. You have not been paying attention if you do not realize that.


Aside the 2011 offseason which I tend to blame on JR with good reason. How many things can you blame on Hurney? Specifically tell me all the poo he did wrong from 02-08. No point in using the draft as examples because that would not be comparing apples to orangesrI already put it in bold captial letters for you guys in the op that what he has done so far does not differentiate him from Hurney thus far. That statement is true.

More disdain for JR's 09-11 takeover.
The most glaring thing aside from the obvious(way too much guarantees) is why did we allow all these guy's to become free agents in the same year? Oh thats right somebody was prepping for a lockout. That same somebody had a chip on his shoulder and wanted to make a point to show the world he was not cheap. 09-11 were very uncharacteristic of Hurney.

Hurney has let people walk in the past such as Witherspoon, Mushin Muhammed, Doug Evans,Ricky Manning Jr.,Richard Marshall, Chris Draft and I am sure there's others but you get the point.(for those that don't I am saying JR played a heavy heavy hand in 2011, really from 2009-2011)

To say he has never brought in outside free agents before is b.s too. Delhomme, Stephen Davis, Ken Lucas, Mike Whale,Brandon Short, Ricky Prohel,Al Wallace, Mark Fields, Marlon Mcree, Keyshawn, brought Moose back, etc.

Then you'll notice in 09 we basically went on a spending freeze for 2 years.We kept a lame duck head coach in 2010, should have been lame duck GM( or was he spared for his loyalty?)

Before anyone try's to claim this is a Hurney apoligist thread or whatever there's plenty of other poo to blame solely on him such as; Jeff Otah,Jimmy Clausen,Everette Brown, Armanti Edwards, every 2nd round pick he's ever made(with possible exception of Amini). Ron Rivera(so far). Then of course the F.A. bust like D.J Hackett, Travis Claridge, Doug Brzinski,etc.



#11 panther4life

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:26 PM

Did you guys know we were over the cap in 2012 too. Yep 3 million less than we were this year but Hurney magically still found a way to add Dwan Edwards, Mike Tolbert,Nakumara(very comparable signing to Mitchell), Mike pollack, kenny onatulu and others. Only cut he had to make to accompish this was Wharton.


Like I laid out in the op the cuts and restructures he made were nothing we had not seen before and were relative no brainers that many on this board suggested would be done well before we even hired Gettleman.

#12 panther4life

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:30 PM

The fact that he waited for the market to settle prices down on players and got players like gross to take a paycut/restructure instead of giving unproven guys ridiculous contracs.


Sort of like Hurney did with Tolbert last year? He was actually a player who could have gotten more money somewhere else. Nobody Gettleman has signed appears to have been able to get more money somewhere else.

Again I am not knocking the guy but I am knocking those who want to crown him king already. I already stated in the op I liked what he's done so far, just not surprised by any of it.

#13 panther4life

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:35 PM

Ok Gettleman brought in a guy who makes our return game relevant again. He played hardball with Munnerlyn and owned him. He brought in guys for pennies who have ability and who will help balance out our roster. I mean do you not realize the cap situation? Go try boxing with one hand tied behind your back and tell me how it goes.

I addressed this in the OP. Munnerlyn was offered a 3 year 5 million dollar deal by Gettleman. For whatever reason Captain scoffed at it and tested the market. By the time he came back to us we had already replaced him with D.J. Moore. So therefore Gettleman backed his offer down.

You guys act like Hurney would have played it any different but can't name me 1 time he let a nickel corner bully him around.

#14 panther4life

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:38 PM

Gettleman has a leg up because of his ability to navigate a situation he didn't create. He had it dropped in his plate. On a short schedule he came in evaluated our roster studied our contracts and still managed to scout free agents and I'm just assuming here, he is prepared for the draft. These "names" that we brought in are light years ahead of what hurney looked for.

Hurneys downfall was that he was retained to long and his wounds were allowed to fester. Gettleman immediately gets the nod because he's new. He has improved his stock by doing things this offseason most of us thought were not possible.


First of all Rob Rogers the cap guy who at the very least assisted in setting these contracts up helped Gettleman navigate them. Fans on this message board called the moves that he made in advance, because they were no brainers.

How can you say these names he brought in are light years ahead of what Hurney looked for??

I agree with your bolded part.

#15 MtnJax

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:42 PM

Gettlejuice gets the nod over Hurndawg because he is an actual football talent evaluator and has years of scouting experience whereas Hurney was just a sportswriter who thought he could be a GM


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