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2nd child of Pa. couple dies after only praying


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#61 Cat

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:20 PM

if they had done the exact same thing and the child was healed, this would be hailed as the most incredible act of faith ever and told in churches across america and the world as another act of god rewarding the faithful.



So true, I hadn't thought of it from that perspective yet.

#62 pstall

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:34 PM

well wouldn't YOU kinda be willing to share that kind of miracle?

#63 pstall

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:38 PM

First Century Gospel Church: Statement of Beliefs (Excerpt)

http://www.fcgchurch...of Beliefs.html

Our commitment to God means that we trust God alone for physical healing without the use of medicine, drugs, prescriptions, pills, or human remedies. Jesus said to the woman Matthew 9:22 "your faith has healed you;" and the apostle reminded those listening Acts 3:16 “It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him [faith being the condition] that has given this complete healing.”

FCG Church teaching emphasizes the importance of trusting God for financial support, both in our personal lives and the ministry. The church and its members do not ask for donations, nor do they make their financial needs known to anyone or any agency—not making the slightest hint that they are in need of funds. Philippians 4:6 ”Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 19 And my God will meet all your needs according to his [riches in glory by] Christ Jesus.”

The FCG Church believes and teaches that we are to trust God alone for protection from accidents, injury, theft, or loss and to not use safety seat-belts, hand guns, or any other device that is designed to protect a person from accidents or loss, as such devices are false places of trust that substitute for real faith in the living God. Our trust is to be totally on God to be protected from such incidents in the first place. Psalm 41:2 ”The LORD will protect him and preserve his life.”



more insincere fatih.

i have heard some things taught like don't have a savings acct, trust God. or give sacrifically until it hurts. these are both INCORRECT teachings.
often people confuse interpretation and application. and they also miss an inccorrect teaching.

but if you read and study the bible and all of the context of each book, you then understand much more.

i know people and entire churches who call some apostles. so i go when did the laying on of hands happen?
i mean there is a host of incorrect stuff out there and nobody challenges it.

#64 stirs

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:52 PM

These poor folks are so mislead. Kinda like the folks who look at faith as an investment account. Put in $100, get out $1000. Very mislead and a lot of guys out there willing to take them down the wrong path.

Jesus himself mentioned that those who were not sick, did not need a physician. He did not rail against physicians in general. In James, the "annoint with oil and pray" passages are looked at by many as take them to the doctor, seek medical attention and most importantly, pray.

Oil was used medicinally as a balm and healing agent in ancient societies.

#65 PhillyB

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:03 PM

i'm still not getting a conclusive answer, then. what drives healing by faith? is it capricious whim by God, or is it effective prayer? or a combination of both?

#66 pstall

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:08 PM

could be a combo. could be God doing nothing and letting the person who is praying to grow in their faith or the person that is working on the person to grow in some way.

i think having faith you can be healed is similar to what many call a positive attitude. it can't hurt to expect the best but prepare for the worst.

#67 PhillyB

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:13 PM

so you contend that god's agency in a particular situation can be swayed through prayer?

and that's not faith, that's tossing a penny in the well in hopes that it'll somehow influence the universe in your favor. if nothing happens, whatever, it was just a penny... if something incredible happens you can relate it directly back to the act.

that's not faith.

#68 pstall

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:23 PM

i do phil.

there are 3 stark examples in the bible that i believe are on a supernatural level. do i think there is a time and place for meds? absolutely.
do we need to be wise with how we work and how we spend and save? yep.

the 3 times where a prayer totally altered things was Moses, Josuha and Hezekiah.

Joshua prayed for the sun to stand still to allow the Israelites to fight and Hezekiah turned his face towards the wall to ask God for more time for his son who was deathly ill.

for Moses it was about sparing the Israelites. God had grown frustrated with them and Moses basically said to God that people will wonder about him if he just goes and off his people and changed God's mind.


we don't know specifically God's will or the outcomes. so why NOT pray? why not interject to see if you can alter the course of something dramatically?

prayer is for us. not for God.

#69 NanuqoftheNorth

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:29 PM

I don't doubt that those that believe in the power of prayer derive a therapeutic benefit from the act of praying. I also believe that the sick benefit from the knowledge that others, their congregation for instance, are praying for their recovery. It is commonly referred to as the "placebo effect" or in the lexicon of the 1960s "good vibes".

#70 pstall

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:32 PM

sure, there can be the placebo or almost psychosomatic effect.

but time and time again, doctors go there is nothing else that can be done and bam. the person no longer has what it was that brought them to the doc in the first place.

im a big fan of covering all the bases. pray and do the proactive thing at the SAME time.

#71 PhillyB

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:50 PM

i think you're missing my point.

if we conclude there is an efficacy in prayer, then it leads automatically to two questions - how was this healing invoked, and why was this healing invoked.if

and again, if we conclude that god answered the prayer, does this not lead one to believe that certain prayers - that is, their effectiveness - is what led to it? the more faithful a prayer, the better the result? and if there is no human agency involved aside from the action of throwing of the penny into the well - what prayer would certainly be, in this case - then is it safe to assume a prayer is a prayer and is considered equal regardless of the amount of faithfulness involved, and therefore god's choice of answers in capricious (or deterministic, in which case who fuging cares?) if this is the case - a capricious god who chooses to answer prayers regardless of the faithfulness of the prayee - then who would want to serve a god who answers you if you ask to do well on your math test or win football games, but all those kids in africa getting shot in the back of the head is "all just part of the plan?"

i have encountered no answers sufficient without breaking the traditional theological framework.

#72 PhillyB

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:50 PM

if prayer is nothing more than "covering the bases" as you said, than it's clearly expendable as nothing more than an act of superstition.

#73 NanuqoftheNorth

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:04 PM

One of the great benefits of religion is the social aspect, the sense of belonging to something greater than oneself. A support network that is there in your time of need. Having that network can be reassuring and comforting. Members can derive physical and emotional strength from it. On that basis alone chances of surviving an illness would seem to improve. Conversely, the lack of such a support network would potentially lessen an individual's chances of survival. There may be more going on (religiously speaking) to effect the outcome than just the act of praying.

#74 pstall

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:38 PM

if prayer is nothing more than "covering the bases" as you said, than it's clearly expendable as nothing more than an act of superstition.


if you want to reduce prayer to an act of superstition knock yourself out.

covering the bases for me is being smart.

why do i bother to go to work if i can just pray for money? why shower when i can pray to be clean and smell good?

i think YOU are missing the point. you don't want an answer that doesn't fit your own outcome you have in your head.


and kids getting shot in Africa is quite the leap of bitter agnst of being part of the plan. people die everyday from all kinds of methods and reasons.

if you don't want to pray, nobody is forcing you. nobody is forcing me. you do what you believe.

in addition, wanting evidence of prayer working will only further frustrate you man. therein lies the paradox of faith.
you want proof but it won't come in the way you want. thats something i or nobody else can provide for you. either you are going to have faith or believe prayer can do some good or you don't. its that simple.


i dont think any answer i give you will satisfy you pb. however. if you want. i can get my two daugthers to pray for something specific for you. it may work. it may not.

i did have a great friend i connected with on fb a couple of years ago. he had moved to florida and had hiv. we went over so much time lost and as we were finishing up i go man. i know you don't see some things the way i do but would you mind if i got my girls to pray for your T cells to go back up? he was sorta expasperated but said sure why not.
in a few weeks they go back up. to the point where his doc was very surprised. this was 3 yrs ago and he is doing great. was it because of our prayers? i like to think it was but i have no lock solid concrete proof it was. or maybe it was my buddy simply letting go and trusting another friend that it could change for the better. again, no way of ever knowing. but the ultimate outcome is all that matters and who cares who gets credit. im glad he is still here and doing well.

#75 mav1234

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:56 PM

so do you pray every day to every single deity that could possibly help? just curious. i mean, that'd be covering your bases.

as to the power of prayer, repeatedly it has been shown to have no effect in blind clinical studies... so there is no evidence of power of prayer... on the other hand I've heard there is evidence that knowing someone cares about you and is thinking about you *does* help... but haven't seen studies on it.


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