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Republicans preparing to hold country hostage for sake of electoral politics


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#1 teeray

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:12 PM

What is it that Varys said about Littlefinger in "A Game of Thrones"?  They would see this country burn if they could be king of the ashes.

 

 

http://www.politico....form-90946.html

 

 

There can be intellectual debates about taxation and the debt burden, but lets be clear that is not what this is about.  They entire crux of this idea can be summed up in one paragraph in this article:

 

 

If House Republicans choose this route, and their ploy works, they would solve a litany of problems. The debt ceiling would be raised, and tax reform would be put front and center in a town that is now focused on immigration and gun control.

 

 

Even Republicans have agreed in recent months that we do not have an immediate debt crisis.  Both Boehner and Paul Ryan have said as much.  So why would we hold our nation's solvency hostage in order to deal with tax reform and spending measures?

 

Elections.  All 435 Congressional seats are up for grabs in November of 2014.  And Republicans don't want to be talking about gun control, gay marriage, or immigration.  Because they lose on all those points. 

 

They want a narrative of taxation and debt.  Which is ironic since their tax and spending policies are what has put us in this position in the first place.

 

But it appears that the Republicans are preparing for yet another manufactured crisis in order to try and win some elections.  If they have to default our country in order to win or retain some of those seats then so be it. 

 

They would watch this nation burn if they could be king of the ashes.

 

 



#2 Cat

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:16 PM


 

They would watch this nation burn if they could be king of the ashes.

 

Nice touch

 

I think both parties have politicians that fit that description.



#3 MadHatter

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:18 PM

What is it that Varys said about Littlefinger in "A Game of Thrones"?  They would see this country burn if they could be king of the ashes.

 

 

http://www.politico....form-90946.html

 

 

There can be intellectual debates about taxation and the debt burden, but lets be clear that is not what this is about.  They entire crux of this idea can be summed up in one paragraph in this article:

 

 

 

 

Even Republicans have agreed in recent months that we do not have an immediate debt crisis.  Both Boehner and Paul Ryan have said as much.  So why would we hold our nation's solvency hostage in order to deal with tax reform and spending measures?

 

Elections.  All 435 Congressional seats are up for grabs in November of 2014.  And Republicans don't want to be talking about gun control, gay marriage, or immigration.  Because they lose on all those points. 

 

They want a narrative of taxation and debt.  Which is ironic since their tax and spending policies are what has put us in this position in the first place.

 

But it appears that the Republicans are preparing for yet another manufactured crisis in order to try and win some elections.  If they have to default our country in order to win or retain some of those seats then so be it. 

 

They would watch this nation burn if they could be king of the ashes.

 

At some point, a line in the sand has to be drawn and the ridiculous spending spree that our government believes in has to stop.

 

This is as good a time as any.



#4 teeray

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:24 PM

Nice touch

 

I think both parties have politicians that fit that description.

 

Thanks but I stole it from A Game of Thrones  :) 



#5 Cat

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:26 PM

Thanks but I stole it from A Game of Thrones  :)

 

Yes, I got that :) That's why I said "nice touch"

 

;)



#6 teeray

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:42 PM

At some point, a line in the sand has to be drawn and the ridiculous spending spree that our government believes in has to stop.

 

This is as good a time as any.

 

I don't disagree that spending needs to be reigned in.

 

But I have a problem threatening the entire nation, and effectively the world, economically in order to try and get your way.

 

Also, we are not going to cut our way our of our debt.  There isn't enough cuts to do it.  There has to be revenue increases as well, bur Republicans have made it clear that they will not agree to any tax increases and is unwilling to cut loopholes in the tax code that allows billion dollar companies to pay zero taxes at all.

 

And lastly, if some of you guys think this actually has anything to do with taxation and debt you are kidding yourselves.  This is about electoral politics and nothing more.



#7 g5jamz

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:43 PM

Smartest guy on the planet told me you don't raise taxes during a recession.



#8 teeray

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 01:03 PM

Smartest guy on the planet told me you don't raise taxes during a recession.

 

Well, good thing we haven't been in a recession since 2009. 

 

united-states-gdp-growth.png?s=gdp+cqoq

 

We are actually in a position where we cannot do what is necessary do deal with a recession because the wealthy are so undertaxed and our debt is so high.

 

I know that people get tired of hearing about what Bush fugged up, but fighting two expensive wars, expanding medicare, and the ill advised Bush tax cuts has put us in the position to not be able to fully deal with a major recession like what happened.

 

Looking at our economy cutting taxes for the wealthy would do nothing for this economy.  Nothing.  Maybe the slightest of uptick in unemployment but mostly wealthy getting more money and further destabilizing our economy.

 

All it would would steepen our deficit and debt.  There has to be a unique set of circumstances where you would see a large tax cut to the wealthy actually increase tax revenue.  The way the economy and taxation in this country is right now is nothing like it was in 1981.



#9 g5jamz

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 01:08 PM

I understand that...but our economic growth is anemic. 



#10 MadHatter

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 01:12 PM

I don't disagree that spending needs to be reigned in.

 

But I have a problem threatening the entire nation, and effectively the world, economically in order to try and get your way.

 

Also, we are not going to cut our way our of our debt.  There isn't enough cuts to do it.  There has to be revenue increases as well, bur Republicans have made it clear that they will not agree to any tax increases and is unwilling to cut loopholes in the tax code that allows billion dollar companies to pay zero taxes at all.

 

And lastly, if some of you guys think this actually has anything to do with taxation and debt you are kidding yourselves.  This is about electoral politics and nothing more.

 

The issue this country is in boils down to 75% spending and 25% revenue issue.  We have raised taxes in the past, with the "promise" that spending will be cut. (Obama did that last year).  Problem is that the spending cuts NEVER come.

 

The politicians are NOT going to cut spending if left to themselves.  This is exactly when the sequester language was put into the last agreement.  However, as expected, Obama decided that he got the tax increases, so he would (as most politicians do) pass on the cuts.

 

Drastic spending cuts are needed across the board (military, entitlement, etc). 



#11 teeray

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 01:55 PM

I understand that...but our economic growth is anemic. 

 

I know.  Part of that is because when in a recession you should be driving up deficits and debt as a government.

 

The best way to help in a recession is to drastically cut taxes and drastically increase spending.  That is what Reagan did.  Paul Ryan and just about anyone else agree that spending is crucial to stave off the effects of a recession.  Paul Ryan said as much in 2001.

 

But we put ourselves in a position between 2000 and 2008 that we could not do that.  Our wealthy is already way under taxed and make over 40% of total US income, they own over 70% of our total wealth, corporate profits are at an all time high, yet wages are stagnant and unemployment is high.

 

11-28-11pov-f4.jpg

11-28-11pov-f1.jpg

11-28-11pov-f2.jpg

 

So what would cutting their taxes achieve?  Probably little to nothing.  And the fact they are making this much money and profits are this high,  yet unemployment is remaining high and wages stagnant, that is a clear signal that raising taxes on the wealthy would not hurt the economy the way it might in other times in our history.  They already aren't doing anything with that money but inflating asset bubbles that will continue to pop again and again like it did in 1993 and 2008.

 

And because of the massive debts and spending under the previous administration we limited our ability to spend the amount we probably needed to spend in order to grow the economy at a faster rate.

 

Who is to blame for this?  Partly because of this:

 

On the offset question, the Medicare prescription drug bill, however, indisputably added to the federal deficit. It was not offset by new revenue or other spending cuts.

In contrast, the official government estimate of the 2010 health care law’s impact said it would actually reduce the deficit, in part because of the new taxes it enacts to help offset the cost of expanding health coverage.

The source for that is the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office.

The CBO’s estimate is hardly undisputed -- Ryan, other Republican leaders and various budget analysts have argued that the CBO’s report was skewed by questionable assumptions given to it by the Obama administration. They contend the law would actually add to the deficit.

Nevertheless, we -- and Congress -- have used CBO estimates as the gold standard on such matters. So Obama has a pretty firm leg to stand on in saying his health bill was paid for while the Medicare bill was not.

 

http://www.politifac...-ryan-voted-wa/

 

 

That is in addition to the two unfunded wars and the Bush tax cuts between 2001-2008

 

So I agree it has been anemic.  But bad policy of the past has put us in a position where it is difficult to impossible to react with the types of policies that would spur growth at a faster rate.



#12 cookinwithgas

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:20 PM

To make it easy on you G5:

 

Everything I have ever said here on how to dig out of a recession and get revenue and growth going again has been correct. Everything you have ever said on the subject is most likely wrong.

 

And it's not because I know anything you don't about economics; it's just that I listen to rational people with no axe to grind. You don't. It's that simple.



#13 cookinwithgas

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:24 PM

At some point, a line in the sand has to be drawn and the ridiculous spending spree that our government believes in has to stop.

 

This is as good a time as any.

 

No, it's not. There are good times to do this but this is not one of them - if we had done the correct thing with the stimulus and not been hamstrung by the Republicans insane desire to kill the economy in a failed attempt to defeat Obama, this time would probably be a lot closer to happening now.

 

Maybe in a few years if we are lucky. A few more if we are not.

 



#14 twylyght

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:28 PM

From what I can tell, no one is actually entertaining cuts in spending... only cuts to increases.  The way these guys will work to get out is by fiat currency.  Kiss your savings goodbye.  Say you're sorry to your kids if you have any modicum of conscience.  



#15 Panthro

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:38 PM

They just work harder

Jeff Otah is wealthier than everyone on this board because of his work ethic


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