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jtnc

Cam wants a run game

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allow me to clarify, all of you have spent 20 pages arguing.

 

the "system" isn't going to be so black and white that the GM affects playcalling so much as what the defense gives them as a whole.  Fact is, one game Cam may stay in the pocket and the next have gaping holes to run through...

 

anything else is just arguing to argue.

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Again though, 2012....

Cam had MORE rush attempts the last 8 games than the first. That was with significantly less zone read looks.

Reality of last year, doesn't back that

 

because of shoddy o-line play. cam had more opportunities to run in the first half. that to me is the difference. we fix the o-line and run less read option, cam runs less.

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In the NFL.....if a GM wants a real change in direction......they bring in a new coach and they bring in a QB that fits it.

GM inherited Rivera and Cam...and he isn't a coach. Either Rivera/Cam sink or swim this year. Then the GM makes his move. GM doesn't control the O and QB with coaching....he does it with hiring and firing.

The GM picks a coach who reflects his philosophy and who will do what he wants. Gettleman has already said that Rivera and he are on the same page and have a similar philosophy.  Gettleman has already told us what the coaching philosophy will be.  The changes Gettleman wants are to have Cam stay in the pocket, use the running backs more which is why he kept both Williams and  Stewart, and do what they did in New York.

it doesn't matter whether Rivera was picked by him or not.  They are on the same page they are going to do what Gettleman wants done and that is really it.  GMs do a lot more than hire and fire.  Gettleman hs said he has the last word on everything. Not just hiring and firing.

Only a fool for a coach would vary from what Gettleman says to do given that he is on the hot seat and Gettleman is surely not. 

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Again what does 2012 have to do with 2013? Gettleman was not here so anything we did last year was Rivera's idea given we didn't even have a general manager to give Rivera advice (unless you can Beane a GM). Last year we deemphasized the read option somewhat and went to a more traditional system. But Chud was still the OC and obviously still ran Newton as much as he did.This year Rivera said after talking to Gettleman and getting his advice, that we will further deemphasize the read option and make Newton even more of a pocket passer and focus on a traditional running game.

Shula helped simplify the offense in 2012 but is doing even more to simplify it now that he is in charge. He said he is going to a more traditional power running game which is a change from last year. I believe him so honestly I don't know why we would look at what we did under a different OC to determine what we will do this year. Last year was Chud's offense that Shula helped simplify. This year it is Shula's offense that he has already told us would be similar but different in some areas. Two of those I am convinced will be how much Newton runs and what they use as their base formations.

But this is classic CRA. 20 pages saying the same thing over and again and when he is wrong again we might get one post takinng back what we all had to suffer through for 5 months. Good thing this is the offseason with nothing else going on.

Let see what happens. I already know I will be right so I can wait for verification. I just am not going to keep arguing with someone who never admits they are wrong and argues for pages despite being out in left field.

What do the facts and reality of Rivera, Cam, Shula have to do with anything.....nothing per you.

Yes, Shula helped simplify and change our offense if reports are correct......and again, Cam ran MORE the 2nd half. You keep acting like that supports Cam running less.

No one will be proven right or wrong until the season plays out....but like always you ink in your opinion on things as the ultimate fact. Just like when we debated the RBs and you argued against me every time I said we should pick one, pay him, and move on from the other. Just like when you said Jake shouldn't of been benched in 2009.

Difference between you and I is I know I go on and on stubbornly on issues. You somehow fail to overlook you are also posting the same thing over and over and over. Classic CRA, huh.....55 doesn't realize he is me from the opposite side of the argument all too often.

And again, last time you claimed I never admit to be wrong I gave you an example of me being wrong immediately.....you on the other hand....

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Again though, 2012....

Cam had MORE rush attempts the last 8 games than the first. That was with significantly less zone read looks.

Reality of last year, doesn't back that

Who was OC last year?  Who is OC this year?? What does last year have to do with this?

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Difference between you and I is I know I go on and on stubbornly on issues. You somehow fail to overlook you are also posting the same thing over and over and over. Classic CRA, huh.....55 doesn't realize he is me from the opposite side of the argument all too often.

 

Difference is that I argue for a page or two and quit. You go on and on and when no one argues, you try to bait people into arguing.  Then you start psting the same thing in every thread.  when  that isn't enough, you make up new threads to argue your point. 

 

You argue with everyone and the common denominator is you.  Don't put me in the same boat with you. 

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The GM picks a coach who reflects his philosophy and who will do what he wants. Gettleman has already said that Rivera and he are on the same page and have a similar philosophy.  Gettleman has already told us what the coaching philosophy will be.  The changes Gettleman wants are to have Cam stay in the pocket, use the running backs more which is why he kept both Williams and  Stewart, and do what they did in New York.

it doesn't matter whether Rivera was picked by him or not.  They are on the same page they are going to do what Gettleman wants done and that is really it.  GMs do a lot more than hire and fire.  Gettleman hs said he has the last word on everything. Not just hiring and firing.

Only a fool for a coach would vary from what Gettleman says to do given that he is on the hot seat and Gettleman is surely not.

Rivera needs to win....taking away Cam's legs greatly reduces those chances. Cam is largely the reason we where in almost all 32 games of his career. Arm and legs.

Only a fool would take Cam Newton at this stage of his career and think his game should resemble Eli's...I don't think you fully credit Cam for how impactful his legs have been.

And no, out first year GM.....doesn't have the last word on everything. He doesn't even have final say on coaches. Jerry Richardson wouldn't even allow him to be in a position to debate hot Rivera's fate. Again, he is a GM. He has limitations.....he isn't this all powerful man who is going to be more coach, QB coach, O coordinator you paint him as.

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allow me to clarify, all of you have spent 20 pages arguing.

 

the "system" isn't going to be so black and white that the GM affects playcalling so much as what the defense gives them as a whole.  Fact is, one game Cam may stay in the pocket and the next have gaping holes to run through...

 

anything else is just arguing to argue.

The GM determine philosophy and direction which means he bring in the players that he and Rivera want.  They discuss how they will be used and what we will do. As you note weekly gameplanning will determine what we run.  Not just from what the defense gives us but our personnel which changes based on injuries and what we are doing well.  As long as things go well Gettleman will let Rivera run things.  But if  they don't expect Gettleman to get a lot more involved just like Rivera did in 2012 when the defense struggled in 2011. 

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Difference is that I argue for a page or two and quit. You go on and on and when no one argues, you try to bait people into arguing.  Then you start psting the same thing in every thread.  when  that isn't enough, you make up new threads to argue your point. 

 

You argue with everyone and the common denominator is you.  Don't put me in the same boat with you.

Oh, you quit after a page or two? If you say so.

Also, I rarely create threads.

I like conflicting opinions. Only way you learn new stuff. The other day someone pointed out some Dave Gettlemen info I had been ignoring. It came to light for me in a thread like this.

Solution for you is simple.....if you don't like discussing things with me, don't. I already told you I enjoy your thoughts even though we rarely agree outside of draft picks which we had been oddly eye to eye on for a while.

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Who was OC last year?  Who is OC this year?? What does last year have to do with this?

Why is Shula the OC....pretty sure it has a lot to do with what we have been doing with Cam and continuing it. That is if you value what Rivera says...

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because of shoddy o-line play. cam had more opportunities to run in the first half. that to me is the difference. we fix the o-line and run less read option, cam runs less.

Gross is another year older, G play still questionable, RT still questionable....

If Cam had more opportunity to run the first half of the season with an overload of zone read....why did he run less than the 2nd half when he was so impressive overall?

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The GM determine philosophy and direction which means he bring in the players that he and Rivera want.  They discuss how they will be used and what we will do. As you note weekly gameplanning will determine what we run.  Not just from what the defense gives us but our personnel which changes based on injuries and what we are doing well.  As long as things go well Gettleman will let Rivera run things.  But if  they don't expect Gettleman to get a lot more involved just like Rivera did in 2012 when the defense struggled in 2011. 

 

I see your overall point, but I still think Cam is going to get his..  however you put it.  If the defense leaves him wide open then I expect to see him take the yards.  I just think it's going to happen despite the scheme.

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Gross is another year older, G play still questionable, RT still questionable....

If Cam had more opportunity to run the first half of the season with an overload of zone read....why did he run less than the 2nd half when he was so impressive overall?

 

didn't say our line wasn't questionable. i still think they will be better though with kalil back and with amini having another year in the league, hold my breath on hangman/kug. i also think less read option looks will help our line be more stable, as well as cam stating he now has figured out taking 3 yards is better than forcing something which was evident down the stretch of last year.

 

and the second part. i said the opportunity to run in zone read. he had more opportunities to run overall. doesn't mean he didn't hand the ball off to a rb.  it was an influx of too much zone read looks, whether it was run or fake run/ pass. Cam was more effective with the ball down the stretch in the passing game which opened up the running game. the o-line was somewhat more cohesive (even though there were bad games like Oakland) But we limited the zone read looks and Cam was a more effective runner because of it down the stretch a la Atlanta home game.

 

now Shula wants to utilize the rbs more, Cam wants to take the check down yards instead of forcing it. Which means either throwing down the field or taking off and running. There are many different ways this can play out. Cam will always have his legs to escape the pocket, he'll get his few designed run plays. But this is just what i've heard from the players/coaches. And i think this equates to Cam rushing less. i also think tolbert gets more of the goal line carries. but a million things can happen; oline could be complete poo, wide receivers suck and can't get open, ect, ect. But from what they are trying to do and if they succeed at what they are trying to do. Cam will run less because there are other options and Cam is gonna be smarter with the football overall. Doesn't mean he isn't gonna run and make plays with his legs.

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Just because Cam is a fugging tank, does not mean you can run him willy nilly. Sooner or later some little DB will take his knees out or some other Evans on Culpepper deal.

Also, the pocket is a dangerous place. For every QB, not just Cam. But, if we are going to be elite. Cam needs to be a QB.

Yes Cam is dangerous with the ball in his hands. But you are tempting fate by using him like a RB.

CRA is a dreamer. He wants his shiney new toy to be the best on the block. Doesn't matter the toy will break the way he plays with it. And it is funny how CRA dismisses reports of Rivera, Shula, and Gettlemen saying they want to limit Cam's running. Because his toy won't be as much fun that way.

Kids never do learn to treat their toys and tools with the respect they deserve.

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Just because Cam is a fugging tank, does not mean you can run him willy nilly. Sooner or later some little DB will take his knees out or some other Evans on Culpepper deal.

Also, the pocket is a dangerous place. For every QB, not just Cam. But, if we are going to be elite. Cam needs to be a QB.

Yes Cam is dangerous with the ball in his hands. But you are tempting fate by using him like a RB.

CRA is a dreamer. He wants his shiney new toy to be the best on the block. Doesn't matter the toy will break the way he plays with it. And it is funny how CRA dismisses reports of Rivera, Shula, and Gettlemen saying they want to limit Cam's running. Because his toy won't be as much fun that way.

Kids never do learn to treat their toys and tools with the respect they deserve.

Outside of short yardage runs he isn't used as a RB and I have said they should limit those or come close to removing all of them. Steve Young wasn't used as a RB.

Rivera nor Shula have once said they want to limit Cam running anymore than they did in 11 or 12.

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