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#16 rayzor

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:50 AM

agree with everything except.......... I think we have the right HC.

depends on what he does with the rest of the season.

gonna have to be a drastic turnaround, imo. these team will have to flat out dominate the rest of the year for him to save his job cause right now he's got to show he's worth keeping to a new GM.

new GM may want to bring his own HC in or someone more in line with his thinking and team building philosophy. the new GM will also want to put his own stamp on it. rivera would have to blow the new GM away for him to keep his job. i just have very little confidence in him being able to do it.

we made a mistake last time not changing the GM when we changed the HC. i don't want us to make another mistake and not being able to start with a truly clean slate.

#17 2jakefansinva

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:01 AM

depends on what he does with the rest of the season.

gonna have to be a drastic turnaround, imo. these team will have to flat out dominate the rest of the year for him to save his job cause right now he's got to show he's worth keeping to a new GM.

new GM may want to bring his own HC in or someone more in line with his thinking and team building philosophy. the new GM will also want to put his own stamp on it. rivera would have to blow the new GM away for him to keep his job. i just have very little confidence in him being able to do it.

we made a mistake last time not changing the GM when we changed the HC. i don't want us to make another mistake and not being able to start with a truly clean slate.


that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

I just don't think RR has been given a fair shake.

and.........rebuilding takes a little time.

#18 Rubi

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:06 AM

I tend to think in military terms about things like this. If I am a commander and I have evidence a massive attack is imminent and I know I do not have the resources to counter it, I pull in my overextended command to weather the onslaught until I can get reinforcements. JR knew there was going to be a reckoning with the NFLPA, and so he did his best to conserve his resources and ride it out. Once it was over he took steps to preserve his core troops, and brought in reinforcements to augment them. Based on the information given him by his field commanders (Hurney, Rivera, etc.), he acted accordingly and gave them pretty much whatever they asked for. Remember the splash he made when he finally did open his checkbook? But just like in Korea, when US and ROK troops were pinned in around Pusan, it takes time to fight your way out. Momentum is something that builds slowly but sooner or later reaches a level that makes it all but unstoppable. I have hopes that eventually we'll see that with the Panthers.


Maximus ! Maximus ! Maximus !

#19 Rubi

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:09 AM

that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

I just don't think RR has been given a fair shake.

and.........rebuilding takes a little time.


There's a reason we have a penalty every game for too many men on the field. There's a reason the read option was an epic failure. There's a reason why our top 5 offense is poo...

Hint - Coaching staff

Time for the entire staff...and scouting department to go in my opinion. New GM, new scouting dept, new coaching staff....they all go hand in hand...that's how it has to be done this offseason. All phases of the organization on the same page. Not overpaying your backfield and then not use them...crazy

#20 MHS831

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:13 AM

Momentum: The product of the mass and velocity of an object.

p=mv

What would you say was the momentum of the Panthers in 2010 when JR purposely tanked the season? An entire football franchise moving downward at a high velocity.

Should we expect for that momentum to be broken any time soon? Are we still moving down at a slower rate, waiting for it to stop and head back up?

What say you?

I rread this to see what a few of these sholars had to say about physics.

#21 rayzor

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:14 AM

that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

I just don't think RR has been given a fair shake.

and.........rebuilding takes a little time.

There's a reason we have a penalty every game for too many men on the field. There's a reason the read option was an epic failure. There's a reason why our top 5 offense is poo...

Hint - Coaching staff

Time for the entire staff...and scouting department to go in my opinion. New GM, new scouting dept, new coaching staff....they all go hand in hand...that's how it has to be done this offseason. All phases of the organization on the same page. Not overpaying your backfield and then not use them...crazy

agreed with rubi.

rivera had a pass last year. brand new to the job of HC. no offseason. had to learn how to manage games and his team AND his coaching staff.

i haven't really seen an improvement or at least enough of one to this point to warrant me wanting to spend much more time allowing him to improve.

his growth is coming at a snails pace and i have yet to see any reason to think he could be dominant as a coach/manager/leader.

#22 Kevin Greene

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:36 AM

Momentum?
JR promised us a Lombardi in 10 years. 2010 proved he never meant that.
Momentum will go up with new ownership or a hands off approach from Richardson.

#23 carolinarolls

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:49 AM

  • 9.8 meters per second is as fast as anything can fall. Even starting Jeremy Brides won't change that.


#24 Marguide

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:56 AM

agreed with rubi.

rivera had a pass last year. brand new to the job of HC. no offseason. had to learn how to manage games and his team AND his coaching staff.

i haven't really seen an improvement or at least enough of one to this point to warrant me wanting to spend much more time allowing him to improve.

his growth is coming at a snails pace and i have yet to see any reason to think he could be dominant as a coach/manager/leader.


I still think back to last year and what I found to be a telling moment for Rivera. It had nothing to do with calling inappropriate timeouts or his demeanor on the sideline and largely went unnoticed.

Last game of the year against the Saints. 4th quarter, and we're down by 3 scores with maybe 8-10 minutes left on the clock. Yeah, the game is almost certainly out of reach, but I've seen teams come back from a 3 score deficit a number of times with say 5 to 8 minutes left on the clock.

We had the ball on the Saints side of the field. Around the 37 or 40 if I remember correctly. It's 4th and manageable. Rivera punts.

That incident cannot be characterized as anything other than a coach giving up. That there was no reason to continue fighting. That it was time to take our lumps and go home.

Now, let's compare and contrast. Remember when Greg Schiano took a lot of heat for his guys trying to disrupt a kneel down play? If it accomplished nothing else, his players got the message that the coach was going to fight until the final whistle sounded, so they had better do the same.

Looking at those 2 contrasting styles, which type of coach would you bust your ass for?

#25 PhillyB

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:16 PM

shouldn't be difficult to win football games with a core built around guys we have on the roster.

get a GM in here with the ability to make intelligent personnel decisions and the ability to select a competitive coaching staff and the momentum should build pretty quickly.

#26 rayzor

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:17 PM

i wouldn't be using schiano as an example, but i agree with the principle.

one of the things that i loved about harbaugh and that has me leaning towards a guy like chip kelly is the shear aggression that comes from his teams.

one aspect that is talked about frequently is kelly is always going for it on 4th and short. there is no playing it safe. it's balls to the wall from start to finish. i want that. i want that culture.

#27 pstall

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:23 PM

What other owners took the same approach as jr during the lockout?
Ironic the smallest market team green bay won and the following year the largest won. Each so far apart in market and revenue but so close in front office evaluation.
Colts and Seahawks have rookie qbs and are winning.

Jr got us this far and I say thank you. Now I say sell and enjoy the rest of your life.

#28 Marguide

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:27 PM

i wouldn't be using schiano as an example, but i agree with the principle.

one of the things that i loved about harbaugh and that has me leaning towards a guy like chip kelly is the shear aggression that comes from his teams.

one aspect that is talked about frequently is kelly is always going for it on 4th and short. there is no playing it safe. it's balls to the wall from start to finish. i want that. i want that culture.


Schiano may or may not turn out to be a good coach, but I think he is at least sending appropriate messages to his players. And yeah, I would have given my left testicle for Harbaugh, but that's water under the bridge.

I know many are high on Kelly, but his offensive style worries me at the NFL level. After suffering through Chud version 2012, I would prefer someone that runs a pro style offense. And the lack of NFL experience bothers me.

Let's just hope we get the right GM and he makes a wise decision.

#29 raleigh-panther

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:32 PM

Honestly, hard for me to care anymore.

I believe the screw-up in Atlanta was huge for this team...instead of being heroes and pulling an upset, they stayed zeros.

In two big moments, the fumble by Newton and the huge pass play allowed for the defense, that was it.

As someone said, the GM hired is huge and it's a big house to clean but no one, and i mean no one, should be untouchable...the players and coaches either grade high or they don't and if they don't, out.

As someone who is a PSL holder and knows many of them, their spirt is totally gone, and they are not willing to open their check books anymore...this current situation is almost as bad as the Siefert era.

I am honestly reserving whether to sell/turn-in my tickets until I see who they a) hire as GM and b. as coach, and if my gut tells me ith's another boondoggle, I'm doine with spending money.

Sorry for the rant....just not big on the 'momentum' beliefs anymore. A team either is hard nosed and talented or it isn't and no amount of momentum makes up for those two things. The Panthers are soft and not very talented where it counts...the lines.

#30 rayzor

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:41 PM

Schiano may or may not turn out to be a good coach, but I think he is at least sending appropriate messages to his players. And yeah, I would have given my left testicle for Harbaugh, but that's water under the bridge.

I know many are high on Kelly, but his offensive style worries me at the NFL level. After suffering through Chud version 2012, I would prefer someone that runs a pro style offense. And the lack of NFL experience bothers me.

Let's just hope we get the right GM and he makes a wise decision.

i''m not worried.

1) the problem hasn't been running plays from a college playbook. the problem is running a predictable offense. there is no real difference between a "pro-style" (which is nothing more than a name slapped to a limited and traditional style of play) and a college playbook except the college playbook has more plays used.

there is no such thing as a real pro-style offense. pages from college playbooks have been showing up with frequency for years and even the spread offense used by colleges, high schools, and pop-warner teams have been showing up quite often and has even become the base for a lot of the elite offenses in the league.

chud has the same problem that davidson had....way too narrow an approach to play calling. chud may have a much bigger playbook than davidson's 15 page coloring book, but chud's cardinal sin is not using enough of it.

kelly is a smart guy and supposedly NFL scouts have been lauding the way he runs practices for years. i'm sure that the switch to playing pro teams won't be as difficult as it has been for rivera to learn how to manage a team as an HC.

the thing i would want kelly to do is to surround himself with a coaching staff who has been around the block a good few times in the NFL. i would want him to have an OC (as a consultant) with an NFL history and a DC that comes from the NFL. the basic principles of managing a team and managing a game shouldn't be that different at all.


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