226 replies to this topic

[MadHatter]

Dude, first of all the common era is the Roger Goodell era. This is where offenses began having the most significant advantage over defesnses. It wasn't nowhere near this even in the early 2000's.

And it doesn't matter which stats you look at. It's all the same result. Which ones do you like? Pick one.

There are only 4 quarterbacks worse in int%
There are only 4 quarterbacks worse in td%.
There are only 4 quarterbacks worse in completion %.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2012/passing.htm

There are only 2 QB's that are worse than him in both int% and td%: Matt Cassel and Ryan Tannenhill
There are 0 quarterbacks that are that bad across all 3.

All meaningless? How about these?

NFL Passer rating? Bottom.
Total QB rating? Bottom.
Release time? Bottom
4th quarter comebacks? Last.

I mean....which ones do you believe are meaningful?


PS: I can see nothing's changed around here. Can't actually argue the argument, so you attack the person. It's all you know and it's all you have ever known.

Same lame ass bullying tactic. That's all you are capable of. Same game of 4-5 butt boys ganging up on anyone with a different opinion.

So ALL of the stats used to measure a QB are deemed irrelevant by the Cam Fanboys.

Ppfl just owned everyone if you with multiple stats and facts....but at least Cam makes cool commercials.

[ReturnOfPFFL]

So ALL of the stats used to measure a QB are deemed irrelevant by the Cam Fanboys.

Ppfl just owned everyone if you with multiple stats and facts....but at least Cam makes cool commercials.

They're obviously all hypothetical...

...or posted by my "alt", TRD's alt or whoever else has taken up trying to point this out these days.Tony N maybe. Because you know, even if that was true, that would make them irrelevant...

[Marguide]

So ALL of the stats used to measure a QB are deemed irrelevant by the Cam Fanboys.

Ppfl just owned everyone if you with multiple stats and facts....but at least Cam makes cool commercials.

Well, Pffl has at least one fan.

What a surprise.

[ReturnOfPFFL]

Well, Pffl has at least one fan.

What a surprise.

Cam's mom likes me too.

[teeray]

Dude, first of all the common era is the Roger Goodell era. This is where offenses began having the most significant advantage over defesnses. It wasn't nowhere near this even in the early 2000's.

And it doesn't matter which stats you look at. It's all the same result. Which ones do you like? Pick one.

There are only 4 quarterbacks worse in int%
There are only 4 quarterbacks worse in td%.
There are only 4 quarterbacks worse in completion %.

http://www.pro-footb...012/passing.htm

There are only 2 QB's that are worse than him in both int% and td%: Matt Cassel and Ryan Tannenhill
There are 0 quarterbacks that are that bad across all 3.

All meaningless? How about these?

NFL Passer rating? Bottom.
Total QB rating? Bottom.
Release time? Bottom
4th quarter comebacks? Last.

I mean....which ones do you believe are meaningful?


PS: I can see nothing's changed around here. Can't actually argue the argument, so you attack the person. It's all you know and it's all you have ever known.

Same lame ass bullying tactic. That's all you are capable of. Same game of 4-5 butt boys ganging up on anyone with a different opinion.

I thought you said you weren't coming back.

You have some good points and there is no doubt that Cam's season hasn't been as good as last season (although last season you said these very stats were irrelevant and only YPP mattered, but I digress)

But there are several factors that have gone into this regression. Some of it is Cam's fault, some of it is coaching, some of it the surrounding cast, and some of it has nothing to do anything except just bad luck.

But as I have pointed out several times it is part of the maturation process of every QB that has ever played the game has had to go through. They all have had to go through this. Every QB not named Tom Brady has had years in which they regressed significantly early in their careers.

Many of the very best QB like both Mannings, Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger, had seasons just as bad or worse than Cam has had this year.

Heck in 2007 alone Eli Manning had three games worse than any game that Cam has ever had in his short career. That was in Eli's fourth season as an NFL QB.

This year my main point hasn't been to defend Cam's production like I did last year (which I was right about and every stat you can come up with backs me up, including YPP), it is to make the point that this year is not unusual for a young QB and that he still has the potential to be a special QB as he develops and matures. It isn't a matter of if but when for Cam Newton.

And 4th quarter comebacks is a faulty stat because there have been several instances this year that we have taken or retaken the lead in the 4th and our defense has faltered down the stretch, If the defense holds the lead they would be considered 4th quarter comebacks and Cam could have had a couple this year.

[ReturnOfPFFL]

I thought you said you weren't coming back.

You have some good points and there is no doubt that Cam's season hasn't been as good as last season (although last season you said these very stats were irrelevant and only YPP mattered, but I digress)

But there are several factors that have gone into this regression. Some of it is Cam's fault, some of it is coaching, some of it the surrounding cast, and some of it has nothing to do with just bad luck.

But as I have pointed out several times it is part of the maturation process of every QB that has ever played the game. They all have had to go through this. Every QB not named Tom Brady has had years in which they regressed early in their careers.

Many of the very best QB like both Mannings, Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger, had seasons just as bad or worse than Cam has had this year.

Heck in 2007 alone Eli Manning had three games worse than any game that Cam has ever had in his short career. That was in Eli's fourth season as an NFL QB.

This year my main point hasn't been to defend Cam's production like I did last year (which I was right about and every stat you can come up with backs me up, including YPP), it is to make the point that this year is not unusual for a young QB and that he still has the potential to be a special QB as he develops and matures. It isn't a matter of if but when for Cam Newton.

And 4th quarter comebacks is a faulty stat because there have been several instances this year that we have taken or retaken the lead in the 4th and our defense has faltered down the stretch, If the defense holds the lead they would be considered 4th quarter comebacks and Cam could have had a couple this year.

Why do you keep comparing Cam to all of these elite quarterbacks, HOF candidates, or Superbowl Champions who have prior bad years? There's been far more quarterbacks who have been busts or turned out average that have equally crap years. The odds are against him turning out like Manning or Brees.

And how exactly were you "right" about his production when no one argued with it? Other than perhaps to point out Steve Smith had a lot more to do it than you gave him credit. I never argued against his production, I gave Cam all the credit he deserved for his part. I said his production came at the cost of inefficiency. And yards per point backs that up? It doesn't. Not interested in getting into a statistical debate with you but as I remember, you tried your hardest time to say it's not an efficiency stat, or not an offensive stat, or anything else to try to make it go away. He was inefficient. Our offense was inefficient. And as soon as our defense has improved this year, it simply exposed everything I was trying to explain to you. Don't even need stats to see that now.

This year you can't defend his production because it's simply not the same. Remember when you were assuming that if his workload would lower, his efficiency would increase? Nope. They both dropped simultaneously. He's amassed a 79 passer rating so far. Look around the NFL, the only quarterback with 2000+ passing yards and single digit passing touchdowns is Ryan Tannenhill. It's the same problem, but now at a lower production rate.

Finally, all stats are "faulty". You love to point to how "faulty" or find exceptions to well known and reliable stats are that don't agree with you. All quarterbacks have to deal with that situation you described. We're still talking about 1 in 26 games. How many of those elite QB's you point to have only put 1 game away in their first 2 years of their career? As a matter of fact that's exactly what happened against the Jaguars. Our defense held the lead, and batted down a pass, which allowed him to get 1. So that benefited him. But he had plenty of opportunities to put games away himself on the offensive side and has not. You keep forgetting the other quarterback on the other team who are getting these 4th quarter comebacks against us, are not depending on their defense. Yes our defense gave up a lead last week, but you are ignoring the fact Josh Freeman drove his team down the field and got a 4th quarter comeback against us, then followed it up with a game winning drive in over time.

All of a sudden you think that's not an important category, but no long time Panther fan would forget 4th quarter comebacks is what kept Jake Delhomme's job for 7 years in Carolina. Other than his leadership, that's all he was ever good at.

[Gabeking]

Why do you keep comparing Cam to all of these elite quarterbacks, HOF candidates, or Superbowl Champions who have prior bad years? There's been far more quarterbacks who have been busts or turned out average that have equally crap years. The odds are against him turning out like Manning or Brees.

And how exactly were you "right" about his production when no one argued with it? Other than perhaps to point out Steve Smith had a lot more to do it than you gave him credit. I never argued against his production, I gave Cam all the credit he deserved for his part. I said his production came at the cost of inefficiency. And yards per point backs that up? It doesn't. Not interested in getting into a statistical debate with you but as I remember, you tried your hardest time to say it's not an efficiency stat, or not an offensive stat, or anything else to try to make it go away. He was inefficient. Our offense was inefficient. And as soon as our defense has improved this year, it simply exposed everything I was trying to explain to you. Don't even need stats to see that now.

This year you can't defend his production because it's simply not the same. Remember when you were assuming that if his workload would lower, his efficiency would increase? Nope. They both dropped simultaneously. He's amassed a 79 passer rating so far. Look around the NFL, the only quarterback with 2000+ passing yards and single digit passing touchdowns is Ryan Tannenhill. It's the same problem, but now at a lower production rate.

Finally, all stats are "faulty". You love to point to how "faulty" or find exceptions to well known and reliable stats are that don't agree with you. All quarterbacks have to deal with that situation you described. We're still talking about 1 in 26 games. How many of those elite QB's you point to have only put 1 game away in their first 2 years of their career? As a matter of fact that's exactly what happened against the Jaguars. Our defense held the lead, and batted down a pass, which allowed him to get 1. So that benefited him. But he had plenty of opportunities to put games away himself on the offensive side and has not. You keep forgetting the other quarterback on the other team who are getting these 4th quarter comebacks against us, are not depending on their defense. Yes our defense gave up a lead last week, but you are ignoring the fact Josh Freeman drove his team down the field and got a 4th quarter comeback against us, then followed it up with a game winning drive in over time.

All of a sudden you think that's not an important category, but no long time Panther fan would forget 4th quarter comebacks is what kept Jake Delhomme's job for 7 years in Carolina. Other than his leadership, that's all he was ever good at.

God damn you don't stop

[teeray]

Why do you keep comparing Cam to all of these elite quarterbacks, HOF candidates, or Superbowl Champions who have prior bad years? There's been far more quarterbacks who have been busts or turned out average that have equally crap years. The odds are against him turning out like Manning or Brees.

And how exactly were you "right" about his production when no one argued with it? Other than perhaps to point out Steve Smith had a lot more to do it than you gave him credit. I never argued against his production, I gave Cam all the credit he deserved for his part. I said his production came at the cost of inefficiency. And yards per point backs that up? It doesn't. Not interested in getting into a statistical debate with you but as I remember, you tried your hardest time to say it's not an efficiency stat, or not an offensive stat, or anything else to try to make it go away. He was inefficient. Our offense was inefficient. And as soon as our defense has improved this year, it simply exposed everything I was trying to explain to you. Don't even need stats to see that now.

This year you can't defend his production because it's simply not the same. Remember when you were assuming that if his workload would lower, his efficiency would increase? Nope. They both dropped simultaneously. He's amassed a 79 passer rating so far. Look around the NFL, the only quarterback with 2000+ passing yards and single digit passing touchdowns is Ryan Tannenhill. It's the same problem, but now at a lower production rate.

Finally, all stats are "faulty". You love to point to how "faulty" or find exceptions to well known and reliable stats are that don't agree with you. All quarterbacks have to deal with that situation you described. We're still talking about 1 in 26 games. How many of those elite QB's you point to have only put 1 game away in their first 2 years of their career? As a matter of fact that's exactly what happened against the Jaguars. Our defense held the lead, and batted down a pass, which allowed him to get 1. So that benefited him. But he had plenty of opportunities to put games away himself on the offensive side and has not. You keep forgetting the other quarterback on the other team who are getting these 4th quarter comebacks against us, are not depending on their defense. Yes our defense gave up a lead last week, but you are ignoring the fact Josh Freeman drove his team down the field and got a 4th quarter comeback against us, then followed it up with a game winning drive in over time.

All of a sudden you think that's not an important category, but no long time Panther fan would forget 4th quarter comebacks is what kept Jake Delhomme's job for 7 years in Carolina. Other than his leadership, that's all he was ever good at.

1- You find me a bust that had 4,000+ yards passing and 35 TDs in a season and I will take your point into consideration. The reason I compare them to him to them is because his career trajectory statistically is most comparable to theirs.

2- YPP was your preferred stat last year and we finished 12th in the NFL in YPP and still finished 6-10. I stand by my assertion that YPP is a flawed stat that it is more representative of the entire team more than an offensive efficiency stat. I just brought it up because it illustrated how even that stat didn't fit the false narrative you tried to push on us last season.

3- not sure what you are trying to prove in that paragraph. I said his production isn't the same as last year. I also am not sure that I said that if his workload decreased his efficiency would increase. I think you are conflating others arguments and crediting it to me. I am also not sure what you mean that it is "the same problem with a lower production rate".

4- You are conflating game winning drives with 4th quarter comebacks. They are different stats. And you are right that Cam has zero game winning drives. But even that deserves context.

It is hard for an offense to close out a game if they aren't on the field. For instance, against Chicago the last time we touched the ball we put points on the board that would have been considered and game winning drive if Chicago doesn't drive down the field in less than 3 minutes and kick a game winning field goal.

As far as "every team goes through the same thing" in regards to defenses blowing leads and then having to go on offense to win, it simply isn't true.

According to AdvancedStatistics.com if a team has a 3 point lead with less than 3 minutes to play a game they should expect to win 94% of the time. With a 1 point lead with a minute left to play they should win 99% of the time. Those percentages are what you get even if you don't put field position into the algorithm. Meaning that no matter where the ball is, on average a team wins 94% of the time with a 3 point lead with less than 3:00 to play and should win 99% of the time with a 1 point lead with 1:00 to play.

Think about that for a minute. That mean in the ATL and Tampa game we lost games that we should win 99% of the time. In the Chicago game we lost where we should win 84% of the time. That is using NFL advanced statistics. It isn't opinion.

If our defense holds those games which happens 99% and 84% of the time when defenses do hold those leads we are 5-5 instead of 2-8. On top of that Cam has another 4th quarter comeback and a game winning drive added to his statistics. Suddenly, you argument loses some of its luster. But as it stands you are correct statistically, but that is why I say it is partially Cam, partially coaching, partially surrounding cast, and partially just bad luck.

So it would appear according to actual statistics and history, that some of the things we have had to go through are indeed anomalies and not stuff that every QB has to go through.

[MadHatter]

Well, Pffl has at least one fan.

What a surprise.

Not a fan of anyone on here.

Just pointing out that he did research and posted a whole list of stats to support his opinion. Which is something the Cam Fanboys won't and can't do.

I am not saying that Cam is or will be a bust. He is far from it. However, based on his body if work, he is FAR from elite status. Right now he is playing avg at best.

I also believe that our current coaching stafff's ineptness is harming his development. But, he has also regressed in many if his decision making and mechanics this season.

I want to see what an offensive minded coach can do with Cam.

[I Registered To Post This]

teeray i'm glad you're in here getting your hands dirty

i just don't have the energy for this guy anymore, especially since he's proven what we all knew: that he's a liar and wouldn't make good on his promise to stop posting here.

[Pimpdaddy]

...hes not a captain because he's not a leader.. DUH!

[ReturnOfPFFL]

1- You find me a bust that had 4,000+ yards passing and 35 TDs in a season and I will take your point into consideration. The reason I compare them to him to them is because his career trajectory statistically is most comparable to theirs.

2- YPP was your preferred stat last year and we finished 12th in the NFL in YPP and still finished 6-10. I stand by my assertion that YPP is a flawed stat that it is more representative of the entire team more than an offensive efficiency stat. I just brought it up because it illustrated how even that stat didn't fit the false narrative you tried to push on us last season.

3- not sure what you are trying to prove in that paragraph. I said his production isn't the same as last year. I also am not sure that I said that if his workload decreased his efficiency would increase. I think you are conflating others arguments and crediting it to me. I am also not sure what you mean that it is "the same problem with a lower production rate".

4- You are conflating game winning drives with 4th quarter comebacks. They are different stats. And you are right that Cam has zero game winning drives. But even that deserves context.

It is hard for an offense to close out a game if they aren't on the field. For instance, against Chicago the last time we touched the ball we put points on the board that would have been considered and game winning drive if Chicago doesn't drive down the field in less than 3 minutes and kick a game winning field goal.

As far as "every team goes through the same thing" in regards to defenses blowing leads and then having to go on offense to win, it simply isn't true.

According to AdvancedStatistics.com if a team has a 3 point lead with less than 3 minutes to play a game they should expect to win 94% of the time. With a 1 point lead with a minute left to play they should win 99% of the time. Those percentages are what you get even if you don't put field position into the algorithm. Meaning that no matter where the ball is, on average a team wins 94% of the time with a 3 point lead with less than 3:00 to play and should win 99% of the time with a 1 point lead with 1:00 to play.

Think about that for a minute. That mean in the ATL and Tampa game we lost games that we should win 99% of the time. In the Chicago game we lost where we should win 84% of the time. That is using NFL advanced statistics. It isn't opinion.

If our defense holds those games like 99% and 84% respectively of the time defenses do hold those leads we are 5-5 instead of 2-8. On top of that Cam has another 4th quarter comeback and a game winning drive added to his statistics. Suddenly, you argument loses some of its luster. But as it stands you are correct statistically, but that is why I say it is partially Cam, partially coaching, partially surrounding cast, and partially just bad luck.

So it would appear according to actual statistics and history, that some of the things we have had to go through are indeed anomalies and not stuff that every QB has to go through.

1. Give it 2 years

2. Field position. Yards per point is based on field position and points. And you are wrong. Our defense gave us short field position against highly inefficient opponents in the latter part of the year, the 2 Tampa Bay games and the Indianapolis game. This increases offensive ypp, but I told you a million times, yards per point is an offensive stat and you need to check both, offense and opponents yards per point. You kept ignoring the other stat and you still do. Net YPP we finished 27th....

http://www.teamranki...er-point-margin

So no, we sucked all the way to the end.

3. I mean we are still inefficient. Not enough points to show for our yardage production. Same problem.

4. I know the difference. Cam has 1 4th quarter comeback or game winning drive. And last week, we just needed to extend the drive to win before Josh Freeman took over. Again, I'm not going to get into a complex statistical debate with you but I will just say all your winning % stats gives Freeman even more credit for what he pulled off. He was clutch and once again, put together both a 4th quarter comeback and a game winning drive.

[TheRed]

Good grief, all these walls of text for people that aren't going to change their opinions lol.

[Marguide]

Not a fan of anyone on here.

Just pointing out that he did research and posted a whole list of stats to support his opinion. Which is something the Cam Fanboys won't and can't do.

Maybe you haven't followed this guy's history. Yes, he posts hand-picked stats until someone proves they are flawed, then he posts more hand-picked stats. It's called posting with a single agenda.

It got so bad last year that he was finally run off after creating a dozen or more alts. Then he went to the Broncos board and started posting there about how wonderful The Golden Calf of Bristol was compared to Cam. I assume that was followed up by joining a Jets board once The Golden Calf of Bristol was traded.

There is nothing wrong with differing opinions. The problem many have with PFFL is he starts with a single premise (Cam sucks) then finds stats that he thinks supports his opinion.

The guy is a nut case, pure and simple.

[ReturnOfPFFL]

dp