tukafan21

No, not saying I just go by what they say. I look at what they say and take it into account when I watch their breakdowns of said players and then make my own opinions, from a variety of analysts from multiple networks. But I don't do it for drafts 2 years out, I just pay attention to the ones in the upcoming draft and at positions we may be targeting, such as QB and WR in this upcoming draft. Which is why even though yea, a lot of scouts really liked Bryce 2 years ago, I was vehemently against drafting him, because of the major limitations I saw in his tape. If by the draft, these analysts are sold on one of these QBs and then I agree with them with what I'm seeing with my eyes, then yea, I'd be open to drafting one. Right now though, I'm not seeing it from any of these guys yet, sure, they all have plenty of flashes to show they could be elite. But none of them look like they're enough of a can't miss prospect for us to take them with the state of our roster right now. If we had a more built out roster right now, then I'd also be more open to taking the risk on another QB this quickly. But we don't and we have a chance to take someone I genuinely believe is a can't miss prospect who will be a Top 5 WR in this league for a while. For a franchise in a state that we are in right now, taking another QB who flops will be FAR worse for our franchise than passing on a questionable #1 pick QB prospect who turns into a star and instead end up with a perennial All Pro candidate at WR as a consolation prize. And while I said I don't blindly trust the experts, it's hard to not see that they've been right about that the last few years, they said it before 2022 and 2023 and they were both years without can't miss QB prospects (look at Pickett, Willis, Bryce, and A-Rich right now) and for a couple years before 2024 they were saying it would be a great class, and it really looks like it should be. So yea, in general, I trust that this is a bad year to reach on a QB at #1 with what they're saying about next year right now. To your point about taking Hunter over T-Mac as a WR, hard pass, I'd take Burden over a WR Hunter if not going with T-Mac (albeit not at #1 of course). Hunter is going to be a CB in the NFL who gets the occasional snaps at WR. Beyond that just being his better side of the ball in general, he's really slender and is struggling to stay healthy in college, granted part of it is playing both ways. But in the more physical NFL, he's not built to stay healthy as a WR, he's dealt with injuries each of his 3 years in college so far already. I won't fight taking Hunter as a CB in general, but I still can't get on board with taking him over an offensive difference maker like T-Mac, not as a CB when we also have Horn. If a true elite DE or QB were to show by the end of the year, I wouldn't be against one of them over T-Mac, but other than those two positions having someone stand out, I wouldn't take anyone else over T-Mac, and I'd 100% honestly still feel that way if I wasn't an Arizona alum. If T-Mac wasn't 6'5" with the rest of his intangibles, then I might not feel so strongly about it as well. That size for someone who isn't a plodding big man is so rare to find, he's going to be a unique weapon in a league filled with crazy talent. Just look at what Mike Evans has done to us in his career, who he's most compared to (although personally I see him more as AJ Green as he's not as thick as Evans). There's only a few guys out there like that, I can't pass on getting one of them on our team for a change at a position of need that we haven't filled since we lost Smitty. He's going to be the true elite #1 that puts up big stats while also opening things up for everyone else because of the attention he draws. He can be our own Jefferson, Tyreek, Chase, etc, he's different than all of them, but they're also different from each other as well. I love Legette, but he's never going to be THAT guy, he can be a Top 15-20 WR type of guy, a decent #1 or a truly elite #2 on a contender, but T-Mac is going to be THAT guy.

Sweet jebus this is idiotic Yes, overall team success in this league, you need a good QB, but beyond just that painfully obvious fact, let's get into the rest of the stupid in there......... First things first, you say.. "if we need a good QB for him to have success, then why are you drafting that player with the #1 pick" Show me one time I've ever said we would need a good QB for T-Mac himself to have success... you can't, because I never have. I think you're referring to the "he's bad enough that we then have a Top 5 pick to target a QB" part of my post, which is very clearly talking about said QB, not T-Mac. The other way to interpret that is just overall team success, which again, wouldn't be anything about T-Mac or his ability to impact the offense or overall team wins and losses. I'm quite sure I could do this with a number of teams over the years, but I don't want to spend the time to do multiple, so I'll keep it to just the 2023 Vikings right now since you wanted to use Jefferson as your example....... The Vikings went 3-6 after Cousins went down last year. And two of those wins came before Jefferson even came back from his own injury, they were 1-4 in the final 5 weeks after Jefferson came back. In those 5 games, Jefferson had 31 catches, 503 yards, and 2 TDs Having the WR you specifically called out didn't help them go better than 1-4 with a bad QB, even though he still put up a great stat line for that time period either. It also didn't make that QB good enough to where they then went out and brought in TWO new QB's this year to replace Doubs and Mullens who started down the stretch for them last year. And that's with 4th year Jefferson, not a rookie that T-Mac would be If you expect a WR getting drafted #1 overall to be the player to turn a franchise as bad as we are around in 1 season, make whatever QB we're able to put in there be successful, and lead us to a solid season, then you are literally insane. We are AWFUL, we have a few young guys who could turn into great players, but we are so far from being a good team, that there isn't any player we could draft next year that is going to change that in 2025.

I'm not going to pretend I follow future draft classes like that to rattle off the names, but basically every college and draft expert has been talking about that for a while. While at the same time, even if that doesn't pan out, it doesn't change that this year's class just doesn't have that elite QB talent anyways, and reaching on a QB just because you need one is never a smart idea to begin with. And Manning was never going to keep Ewers on the bench, he always knew he'd be sitting for 2 years until Ewers left, no matter how good he was, it was never going to be an open competition that he could win, just now how they did it and the Manning family was okay with that, if they weren't, he never would have gone back to Texas this year to begin with. We've reached to try and fix our QB spot for what, 4 out of the last 5 years, with this season being the first time we didn't make a knee jerk reaction, because frankly we couldn't after just 1 year of Bryce. We reached on Two Gloves being the fix, then reached back to back years in bad trades for Darnold and Baker without giving them the supporting cast to succeed like they both are now, and then reached on the trade for Bryce. Reaching just out of need, doesn't work, period. This roster is too depleted on talent, particularly skill positions, to try and fit a square peg into a round hole at QB. Build up the roster and then insert the QB, it doesn't even need to be a Top 10 pick if you built out a solid roster around them. Look at teams like the Lions or Falcons right now. Build up the proper assets for a few years and then find a way to insert a QB capable of taking advantage of those weapons. We keep trying to do the opposite and it's tanking our QB's chances of succeeding before they ever take the field. I still say we take T-Mac, try and trade for someone like Hooker from the Lions, and let them start all year long. Either we find our diamond in the rough at QB on the cheap or he's bad enough that we then have a Top 5 pick to target a QB who will have a true #1 and high end #2 (Legette) who are in their 2nd and 3rd year's respectively to give them great weapons to help them succeed early. Or you go after someone like Jameis, he's not going to make you a contender, but he can sling the rock, which will help develop those young weapons like Legette, Sanders, Brooks, and hopefully T-Mac as they'll get peppered with targets unlike what Bryce would give you.

This draft is 2023 all over again, it's not hard to see. QB's who don't grade out as high first round prospects while at the same time, the following draft class looks to be loaded with elite QB prospects. Drafting a QB just because you need one (or making a bad trade to make said draft pick), when there isn't one worthy of that draft pick, is how you ruin franchises, just look at us right now.

LOL... Yet again proving you can't look below anything than what you see on the surface Mock drafts ARE NOT draft grades They are what people think will happen. They are mocking teams taking QB's in the top 5 of the draft because that's just historically how drafts go regardless of the grades on the QBs. Almost every draft expert, even those mocking QB's going high, have said time and time again that none of these QB's actually grade out as those type of picks. This is again, where I say you don't like to actually read what I have to say, because I already explained it. 2022 the exact same thing happened, mock drafts had guys like Pickett and Willis going in the Top 5 because that's just what teams usually do, but GM's listened to their prospect grades and knew they weren't worth taking that high, so they didn't. It's not to say QB's won't go that high this year, but it's to say that they aren't graded out as elite QB prospects. And yes, I've never said I'm not a T-Mac homer. But me being that doesn't change that he will be the highest graded offensive player in this year's draft, at a position we haven't been able to solve since we lost Smitty. Taking him makes all the sense in the world, my bias aside. As even without my Arizona connection, he's 100% who I'd still want to draft. We are a roster void of talent and he has the chance to be a very rare type of WR in this league with his size, speed, and hands. There is a reason PFF has him as their #1 offensive player in the draft, and it's because guys like him are unicorns in this league.

Oh good lord Interest doesn't mean interest in making a bad trade to take the player, that's why I had such a long post, to accurately describe why those are two different things, but you don't like to listen to that stuff. Being interested in a player doesn't live in a vacuum. It's very simple... there isn't a #1 draft pick type of grade on any of these QB's, if there was, we'd just take them. You can't bluff a pick everyone knows you won't make, and trying to trade the pick is the CLEAR signal that you're not taking the QB. Just because the Raiders would have interest, doesn't mean they're going to bail us out of a situation we don't want to be in, they'd be smart about it and just sit put, let us take a non QB as we'd be telling the world we're not taking one just by trying to trade the pick, and then they'd take him at #2 (either with their own pick or by trading less to get that one). Oh, and your point of "if nobody is willing to make the trade, you obviously just take the best QB" is quite literally the dumbest thing I've ever read on here. If nobody is willing to trade up to take the QB, then it's OBVIOUS that the QB isn't worth taking with that pick, so OBVIOUSLY taking the best QB there is just OBVIOUSLY stupid and a bad pick. The moral of it is if there is a QB worth taking, we're taking them and not making the trade. If there isn't a QB worth taking there, nobody is trading up to #1 to take one, we just showed the NFL how bad of an idea that is 2 years ago, it's really not hard to see. You keep making up this mythical situation where there is a QB who has shown to be worth trading up to #1 for and we'll be able to leverage that into a trade. But we're the most QB needy team in the league, if we end up with the #1 pick, either we are taking a QB #1 or no QB is going #1 unless we get VERY lucky and two teams in the Top 5 fall in love with one prospect and we can play them off each other and fleece one of them. But again, I can't see that happening, as if there was a QB worthy of that, we're just taking him ourselves.

the very long didn't read version of this is....... If there is a QB worth trading up for at #1, we would take them ourselves If there isn't a QB worth taking at #1, then we can't bluff that we're taking one as nobody will be dumb enough to think we're passing on said QB because we have the worst QB situation in the league. Just because you want to do something doesn't mean other teams will want to get fleeced, there's only one Panthers team out there, and we can't fleece ourselves unfortunately.

This is a perfect post... to show how you can't seem to stop viewing things from a Madden GM viewpoint. Just because teams are in the market for a QB, doesn't mean they are going to make dumb trades to move up to #1 to take one in a draft where none of them are worthy of doing so. The first issue is you point out how teams will be in the market for a QB, but seem to forget that we literally have the worst QB situation in the entire league right now. So you can't bluff taking a QB at #1 while trying to trade the pick. This isn't a Bears/Fields situation where there is a legitimate argument to him still being able to be a franchise QB if you gave him weapons and that you're open to trading the pick to give him another season. If we're trying to trade the pick, every team will know we have no interest in taking a QB at #1, and thus nobody is going to make a trade with us to take the QB, if they wanted a QB that badly, they'd target the #2 pick knowing we're taking a non-QB. Beyond all that, the real issue is that this draft is much closer to 2022 than 2023... That was a draft where some mocks had guys like Pickett or Willis going in the Top 10 because teams needed QBs and they tend to overdraft them so people predicted it happening, even though almost every draft expert admitted they don't have 1st round grades. And in the end, teams weren't stupid and the first QB taken was late in the 1st round, unlike in 2023 when teams reached for players that nobody actually graded that high. And what's the result of that as of right now? the 2023 #1 and #4 picks have already been benched for geriatric backups and the current narrative is that teams need to stop taking QB projects high in the draft. Your example is basically like playing poker, showing that your hand is a pair of 2's and bluffing by going all in, your bluff is going to get called because they know your hand. Sure, some of these QB's could end up panning out as great NFL players, but none of them have shown to be worthy of taking with the #1 pick yet, let alone making a trade to move up there to take them. We literally are showing the league right now how horrible that idea is, to think a team is going to then make that type of trade with us is just asinine. If we hadn't made that trade in 2023 and showing the league right now how bad a trade like that is to make, then maybe a trade would be more feasible, but we're unfortunately showing the other 31 teams how dumb of an idea that is in a draft with QB prospects who don't grade out that high in the draft. Then you say you're good with taking these guys at #2, if that's the case, then you just take them at #1 instead of forcing a QB or DE pick that isn't the right decision. Making a pick based on the history of who gets drafted at #1 is just beyond dumb. Realistically the only way I think we can trade back because someone wants a QB is if they are as dumb as we were 2 years ago (seems unlikely) or we get lucky and the teams at #2 and #3 fall in love with only 1 QB and are willing to overdraft them, so we're able to convince one of them to swap picks to take them before the other team. Which yes, if that happens, you do it, but talking about that situation is pretty much pointless as it seems unlikely to happen in a year without a clear cut #1 QB, let alone that QB being worth trading up to the #1 pick to take them... because again, the key point to all of this, is if there was a QB like that, we would just take them ourselves. It's basically the 2023 draft all over again, except we're not the Bears with a QB who still could pan out, so we have no leverage in trying to trade the pick. I'd say best case scenario of a trade would be moving back a couple picks and picking up like a 3rd rounder to do so, I don't think any QB in this draft will garner another 1st or 2nd round pick to move back a few slots. Which if that's the case, I'd rather just take our #1 guy on our board than risk them getting taken before us if we move back to the 3-6 range to pick up an extra mid round pick.

I think the decline is more just the need for QB’s and DE’s, but there really just won’t be a blue chip prospect at those positions in this draft. T-Mac will be a Top 10 WR within a few years and a very real chance of being a Top 5 WR by his 2nd contract, don’t over think it, take the true outside #1 WR game changer and call it a day.

Oh and btw, the last time a non QB, DE, or OT has gone #1 overall, it was when Keyshawn went first. So again, basing our selection (assuming we can’t trade back) on recent history of positions of other #1 draft picks just makes no sense. You take the best player for your needs, which for us and with who is likely Top 10 picks, I very strongly believe to be T-Mac. It’s how you build a roster in today’s NFL, get the impact skill position players in place, then find your QB so they have those weapons from their first snap, not the other way around like we tried with Bryce

You say this as if trading back would be no problem at all But if we’re at #1 and there isn’t an obvious QB for us to take ourselves, the. It’s going to be difficult to trade back. As even just signaling we want to trade back will tell teams we’re not taking a QB, and if that’s the case, if a team sitting at 2-5 in the draft wants a QB, they have no motivation to trade with us since they’d know we weren't taking said QB. They’d either just stay put or trade into #2 for cheaper to get the QB since we’d clearly be taking someone else. So yes, trading back would be ideal, but it’s easier said than done since there probably it won’t be another team out there as dumb as we were last year to make a bad trade. Of all the players projected to go in that Top 10 area, T-Mac literally might be the best fit for us, so just take him if we can’t trade back, don’t force a pick in the end just because it’s the #1 pick T-Mac, Legette, Brooks, Sanders would be a dangerous young group of weapons for any QB we can replace Bryce with

Aren’t you the same person who has been advocating to take Hunter at #1 overall? Someone who is more than likely going to be a CB in the NFL, a position that I don’t think has ever had someone go #1, because they never should be taken #1 I think over the next 10 years or so, there will be a bunch of WRs who go #1 overall with the way the game is shifting to being which a passing league. Unless you have a Mahomes, which nobody else does, it’s near impossible to contend these days without a true elite WR Really, QB, DE, and OT are the only positions to get drafted #1 overall over the last 20 years or so. Just not sure there is someone at those positions worthy of us taking first overall if we have the pick, and if we can’t trade back and have to make the selection there, I think a true elite WR is exactly what we need to take, it’s been our biggest hole for a long time.

Big difference in taking WRs in the 2nd (or last pick in the first) and hoping they pan out, and taking the top WR in the draft who is going to go in the Top 10 at worst and very possibly Top 5 based on team needs. Nobody was saying Legette, Mingo, or TMJ were going to be can't miss prospects, but I think every draft analyst will be saying T-Mac is going to be such a prospect. They're not even comparable situations.

I'd go with that WR from Arizona, can't think of his name though

If we take Burden over T-Mac I'm burning all my Panthers gear and finding a new team, that would just be so dumb to pass up the 6'5" true outside #1 WR to take the 5'11" guy who is going to play most of his career in the Slot.

And even then, they're grading all these QB's as mid 1st rounders at best, if not 2nd rounders It's just flat out not a year to draft a QB, no matter how bad we need one. There will be 3-4 QB's minimum in next year's draft that will all be graded higher than any from this year

T-Mac has Top 5 position potential by his second contract, not going to be many players with that kind of potential in the draft and it’s one of our biggest positions of need. Having an elite WR can change an entire offense and he’s the best in the draft. WRs with his combo of size/speed/hands are near impossible to find, don’t over think it, take the best offensive player in this draft and be happy

Yep, and he's admittedly had some pretty bad statistical games, but anyone who's watched the games can tell you it's not because of him. The offense has been a mess under this new staff and our QB has been pretty bad all year, all that combined with teams double and triple teaming him most plays because we have nobody else who scares anyone, it's limited his chances. Even having said all that, he's still at 982 yards thru 8 games this year, but stats in his favor or against him aside, he's going to be a Top 10 pick at worst, very possible Top 5, and he'll be the first WR off the board, I'd bet my bottom dollar on that. Given it being such a position of need for us, he's my pick no matter what, although if we did end up #1 and could trade down a couple spots and still be sure to get him, I'd of course like to do that to get more assets as well.

T-Mac having himself a game, 10 rec, 202 yards, 1 TD, with a few highlight reel plays and should have just had a TD pass as well on a crazy play but our QB dropped the ball when he would have walked backwards into the end zone (would have been his 2nd impressive pass of the day as they ran a flea flicker earlier that he ran all over before making a solid pass). He's the pick, I don't care if we're at #1, he should be the pick, he's going to be a STUD in this league for the next decade plus. It's a hole we haven't been able to fill since Smitty, it will help whoever our future QB is, he's just flat out the pick.

He turns 29 this offseason, he has 2-3 years left in him and he's never really been an elite WR outside of the few times a season he flashes the potential. At some point you hav to accept what he is, someone with talent who isn't a #1 on a contending team and is probably a 3rd receiving option on that type of team. There's no reason to give him the $20+ million a year it would take for us to re-sign him with where we are at as a franchise. As I've said a million times, draft T-Mac with our First round pick instead, get a better WR on a rookie contract and 8 years younger with the potential to be a Top 5 WR in the league. So if we're not going to re-sign him (like we shouldn't), then there really is no reason to not trade him for whatever we can get as there are some WR needy teams who think they can still contend this year. I'd also trade Thielen for the same reason, think we could actually get more from the right team for him as him in the slot could be more helpful to teams than Johnson on the outside.

This is a bad idea, when he bombs out there, it's going to ruin any potential trade value he still had.

Sure that's a fair argument as well, but once it was clear the team had quit on him and we didn't have a good roster in place to begin with, the smart thing would be to just embrace the suck for one season and use it to kickstart the re-build with the #1 draft pick without needing to make a stupid trade to get there. Of all the dumb decisions this franchise has made over the last couple years, that trade was by far the worst of them as we were already a roster without a lot of talent and we traded away our best offensive weapon and multiple high draft picks in a bad QB draft, just dumb and compounded a multitude of other issues.

It was firing Rhule mid-season, I was infuriated when he did it and it was the first domino that lead to us being here right now. We weren't going to win games with him as the HC and Tepper knew it so he made the move, but it was cutting off his nose to spite his face. If we kept Rhule all season, we end up with the #1 pick of the draft all on our own, which means even if we still took Bryce, we still would have kept DJ and all those draft picks. If we still take Bryce, he's still awful and we end up replacing him with the QB heavy draft from this past season since we would have still had our 2025 1st. If we went a different way and took Stroud, pairing him with DJ and whoever else we built the WR room around (which likely would have included Tank Dell, as remember, Stroud went to the Texans after they took him and asked them to draft Dell as they had built up a great chemistry working out together before the draft).

Oh I absolutely buy the rumors as they've been handing out huge contracts lately and haven't won the SB yet on their QB's rookie deal and are somehow even worse this year (yes I know injuries play a factor). Being great at evaluating talent only gets you so far, if you don't win the SB and are saddling yourself with serious cap issues in the very near future, it's not going to help a GM keep his job. I think Lynch is in far more danger of being fired than Shanahan because of those contracts, far too much smoke about ownership being unhappy about the Williams and Aiyuk contracts for there to be no fire.

Except there have been lots of reports that it's a SB or bust season for Lynch as ownership hasn't been happy with the contracts he's given out because of what it's going to do to their cap situation in the next few years. If they aren't at worst in the NFC Championship game again, he's 100% getting fired and there have been rumors that Shanahan, for as great as he's been, will end up being tied to Lynch's fate. They have to make panic moves right now or it's going to cost them their jobs. I'd be shocked if they don't trade for a WR before the deadline, whether it's one of our guys or someone like a Mike Williams who is clearly available, who knows, but they'll get someone.