tukafan21

I don't want Hopkins this year, but between the two he's the one I'd take because I think him being on the team only hurts the development of our young WRs, where Diggs would hurt the development of our young QB (along with the WRs), which would make it a non-starter for me. I've also never once said Hopkins is a diva, because I don't think he is one. So it's not about taking the lesser diva between them. It's also not even about him being a diva, that's manageable, it's the way he acts like a diva, losing his mind on the sideline like he frequently did last year. Combine that with him this offseason saying he should have a say in play calling and such, he's just a disaster waiting to happen if paired with a rookie QB.

Love the player and I'm a fan of his, but he's a terrible fit for Bryce's rookie season. I'm very much against Hopkins because of how much it would hinder the development of TMJ and Mingo, but I'd take Hopkins 100 times out of 100 over Diggs because of how much I think he would hinder the development of Bryce. He needs to be on a team with an already established vet QB as well as being the undisputed focal point of the offense, neither of which would be the case with our team this year. If we were going into Bryce's 3rd season and he was already the established leader and definitive voice in the locker room it would be a different scenario. But this season is about laying that foundation the next decade of Panther football is to be built upon, and bringing in someone who throws a fit when their legitimate MVP candidate QB isn't getting him the ball often enough doesn't jive with that. Especially when that player who wasn't getting the ball enough for his liking had 108 catches, 1,429 yards, and 11 TDs. I mean, c'mon, how much more do you want the ball thrown to you?

I mean, that's not really true. Thielen and Chark, when healthy, have more than proved they're at worst WR 2's with Chark having low end 1 upside. TMJ was looking like a legitimate WR2 in his own right late last year with garbage coaching and QB play, no reason he shouldn't improve this year and early reports are that he is. Sure, Mingo is the question mark, but even if you look at Laviska as the 4th, he's a weapon who can be used in a variety of ways and has shown big play potential for us. And I don't think Mingo is going to have any trouble making an impact this year. The point is even if you're upset we don't have a true #1, you have to be able to look at what we do have and realize it's not a bottom 5 group.

In no way are we a bottom 5 WR team, as others have said, we might not have that #1, our depth at the position is outstanding. Realistically we might have four #2's this year with Chark, Thielen, TMJ, and Mingo and an intriguing do it all weapon in Laviska. I'd rather have 4 #2's than a #1 and three 3's or worse like the Rams currently have with Kupp and basically nobody else after him. Yes, we are absolutely open up to issues if we have any long term injuries, every team at every position can say that, but this is the argument for not signing Chark with his injury concerns and waiting/hoping that someone like Hopkins would become available to us later. And again, we are not a Hopkins away from being a legitimate SB contender, and the team doesn't think they are either. If they truly felt we were a real #1 away from actually contending this year, we'd be going hard after Hopkins and we likely would have traded them a pick to get him before he hit the market.

The second we made the trade to #1, my #1 Free Agent want at any position was Thielen. You couldn't ask for a better non #1 Slot WR (i.e. no Kupp or Godwin types who play mainly out of the slot) for a rookie QB than Thielen. He's an ultimate pro's pro, runs great crisp routes, sure handed, he's the type of guy you want both leading a WR room and being that vet mind and safety valve for a rookie QB to be paired with. I think he has 80-90 catches for 800-900 yards, with 5-7 TDs, which might sound like a lot on the surface, but if he plays 17 games, he only needs 5 catches for 50 yards a game to get 85 and 850, seems very doable.

wait what? new punter? What happened to Hekker?

I really like Jammie's potential, he just has that dog mentality that you need as a DB and his tape looks pretty good too, seems like a solid tackler in run support as well. You don't make 1st Team All ACC in back to back years for nothing.

Any word on when he'll be signing his contract? Not that I'm all too concerned, but I've never understood why so many first round picks take forever to get their rookie deals worked out now that there is the rookie scale in place. I know it's usually around offset language, but feel like that generally doesn't become a tough point in contract talks for players going in the Top 5, usually the teams just assume it won't be needed and don't argue over it. It's the guys in the 5-15ish range that usually haggle over it.

Love hearing about Young and Thielen building a chemistry together, probably a 99% chance Thielen ends up on my fantasy team this year after reading that lol. We have a 12 team PPR where you can start up to 4 WRs since we have 2 flex spots, so you need a bunch of depth at WR in our league. A guy like Thielen in a PPR will be awesome to have this year, he's a perfect injury or bye week filler as he's likely to be Young's safety valve this year. He'll get a solid 10 PPR points a game as a floor with 5 or 6 catches for 40-50 yards, then he's likely to add probably 5-7 TDs on top as well, that's a perfect player you draft as a bench guy, especially in an auction league where I'll be able to get him for a couple bucks (if even over just $1).

I never once said that Hopkins is a terrible fit with Young. He's a terrible fit for the Panthers long term future given the current state of our roster. Developing and seeing what TMJ and Mingo can be is far more important to the long term success of the Panthers than what Hopkins would add to this year's team, that's why I'm against Hopkins. I've also been clear in all of it, that if we could trade Chark for a CB or DE, then I'd be all about getting Hopkins. Thielen is locked in as our slot and Chark is locked in on the outside. Right now, TMJ and Mingo would take almost all the snaps at the other outside spot, while they'd both be on the field in 4 WR sets and they'd both likely take some slot snaps from Thielen as he's not likely an every snap player at his age. If you add Hopkins, that limits TMJ and Mingo to 4 WR sets and spot snaps at the other 3 spots, which isn't enough to help them develop and/or see if either can be legitimate WR options for us over the next few years. I would be against adding any WR in the league over the age of 28 if they'd take the 2nd outside WR spot away from TMJ/Mingo, no matter who they are. If they're younger than 28 and would be here thru all of Bryce's rookie contract and prime SB window, it's a different discussion. Not sure why you still struggle with that concept

Who is saying every WR is a diva? For the record, I've never once said that Hopkins is a diva if that's what you're insinuating. Me saying he would demand 150 targets on the year isn't meant as him actually demanding it, but more of just how many targets would end up going his way and I think it's a detriment to TMJ and Mingo's development. Anyone who has watched Diggs' career can see that he's a diva (his brother kinda is as well to be honest). I also wouldn't consider Antonio Brown a diva, he's more of a cancer to a team/locker room than a diva. Diggs also isn't the type of diva that almost all teams would want to avoid having on their team, hell, if I was the Colts with AR or Titans with Levis, I'd love to have Diggs. But Bryce's game is just different, it's his mental approach to the game, working through progressions, scrambling and making off script plays. If Bryce was a 3 or 4 year vet, it would be different, he'd have more of a voice and experience to handle a Diggs, but even Josh Allen, an MVP candidate who's been around for a bit now, struggled at times with him. That's why I think the argument against Diggs isn't about hurting TMJ/Mingo like it is with Hopkins, but this one would affect Bryce in a negative way Diggs would just be a terrible fit with a rookie like Bryce, and it goes both ways, Bryce probably wouldn't be a great fit for what Diggs would be looking for in a QB either if he asked for a trade, he'd want a QB who will have Diggs as his 1st, 2nd, and 3rd read on each play

Fair, but also to be clear on my end, I was only quoting you because you had mentioned if Diggs would force a trade. It was more of a preemptive post to cut off someone else, who shall remain nameless, before they start crying about how much we need to trade for Diggs

Let's cut this one off before it gets started, we will never trade for Diggs, nor should we even entertain it. Absolutely one of the best WRs in the league, better than Hopkins is at this point as well. But the guy is a huge diva who demands targets and when he doesn't get as many as he likes, he loses his cool. That's just the exact opposite type of a WR you want to give to a rookie QB, particularly one whose game looks like it will be predicated on making the right reads, spreading the ball around, and not forcing the ball to any one player. Would be the worst thing for Bryce's development and even worse for the development of TMJ/Mingo than Hopkins would be.

I like those stripes much more with them being thinner like that, hopefully it will now increase the size of the numbers on the shoulders so they don't look so goofy.

Sorry, but this just makes no sense. We took a QB about 50 picks earlier than Howell in that draft and it didn't stop us from making a move for the #1 pick. Sure, Howell didn't get hurt like Corral did, but he only played in 1 game and threw less than 20 passes, it's not like he showed some crazy potential that would have made us wanting to go into the season with him as our starter this year.

Yep, although if we can't find any decent CB's at some point, upgrading the pass rush opposite Burns can also help out a young and no so great secondary. That with some quality Safeties that we have, it's not an end of the world scenario, but it's certainly not a great CB outlook right now.

Why? California has the largest population (39 million) of any state and has 3 teams. Texas is 2nd (30) on that list and they have 2, Florida is 3rd (22) and have 3, New York is 4th (19) and they also have 3, then a sizable population drop (from 19.6 million to 12.9) to Pennsylvania who has 2 teams, then Illinois (12) who only has the 1, and then Ohio (11) who has 2. After that, Georgia, North Carolina, and Michigan are the only other states with 10+ million population, but all under 11 million which the above states all at least have. So just from a population standpoint there is no real reason they shouldn't have 3 teams, then add in that it's a warm location and I don't think there is anything wrong with it. If anything, the argument shouldn't be that Florida doesn't deserve 3, but that Texas should have a 3rd given their population size. Now if you want to say they don't deserve 3 teams just because the state is freaking crazy, then that's a different argument that I can't fault, LOL

They said Jammie can play the nickel when we drafted him, I liked what I saw from his highlights and interviews, seems like a kid who is gonna find a way to get on the field

You're allowed to have an opinion, but just have some sound logical reasons behind it and don't dismiss the people who point out the significant flaws in making the moves you want to make. You can want a player for the reasons of wanting to have that player, that's totally fair, and I agree with you there, I'd love to have Hopkins on the Panthers. But that's where my interest in Hopkins stops, because once I put even the slightest critical thinking behind the implications of signing him, it because painfully clear that it's not in the best long term interests of the Panthers to do so. When you ignore everything else that goes along with getting that player, you come across as someone who is very uneducated in regards to how the sport of football and the NFL works. You sound like someone who thinks Madden is how real football works, it's just not. And as I've pointed out numerous times, the reason for it has nothing to do with Hopkins, but more with Chark on the squad and the subsequent trickle down effects unto the development of TMJ and Mingo, and it's why I was very lukewarm on his signing from the star. As I felt like at some point we'd have been able to find a better #1 option, and if we didn't have him signed and taking up $6 million of the cap this year, then I think we'd have been the leader for Hopkin's services and I'd be 100% all about it.

It's simple, he's been this way all offseason, he's unable to see the forest through the trees, he can only look at every player/transaction in a vacuum and not the cascading affect that move may have on the rest of the team, particularly past this one season. Bryce is a rookie and we still have a lot of major holes, this isn't a legitimate SB contending year, it's a year to build for the future so we can hopefully contend for 10+ years with Bryce as our QB. First, having Hopkins 100% hinders the ability to develop TMJ and Mingo, it's not even debatable. Neither of them are beating out a healthy Chark this year for snaps outside, so 90%+ of the outside WR snaps/targets would go to Hopkins and Chark, with probably 150 targets to Hopkins. Those aren't snaps that then give TMJ/Mingo single coverage like CamWhoaaCam likes to argue, because Hopkins isn't an extra player on the field, those are snaps TMJ/Mingo would then be on the sideline. Thielen will be the main slot, and how often will we really be running 4 wide (which even then, one of those two still isn't on the field)? The minimal boost for Bryce's development this year by having Hopkins is far outweighed by the significant boost in the development TMJ and Mingo would receive by getting the bulk of those 150 targets Hopkins would get. It's not always about trying to put the best possible team on the field in 2023, it's about putting the best possible team on the field in 2023 while also building the best possible franchise for long term success, it's a balance of the two. Beyond all of that it comes down to the cap... First with that is that we still haven't signed Bryce or Mingo, that alone is about $8 million of the cap we have left, so we don't have as much as everyone thinks. After that, we have MUCH more glaring needs for vets who can immediately contribute at CB and DE/OLB. And while the names, particularly at CB, might not be out there right now, there will be cap casualties as camp gets going, and we need to keep some of the money we have left for those positions as the season approaches. Then whatever we have left can be rolled over into next year when we'll have monster cap room to try and sign some young impact stars in FA. If we wanted Hopkins, we would have needed to trade for him before we signed Chark, now that he's on board and we drafted Mingo, the Hopkins ship has sailed for 2023. I still say that I'd LOVE to have him next year assume he makes it through 2023 healthy and still playing well, we'll have the cap and not Chark on the books to make it possible as that also should be the start of the prime SB window of years 2-4 of Bryce's rookie cap hits.

I’d love to know where I said they were powerhouse teams. I literally just said they’re better teams than we are right now, which is 100% true. You seem to think we’re a top 5 team in the NFC right now, you’re delusional.

Eagles, 49ers, Cowboys, Lions, Seahawks, Vikings are all without question better teams than we are right now. Packers, Giants, Saints all very well may be better than we are right now Rams, Commanders, Falcons, maybe even Bears are all teams that are probably toss-ups at this moment. None of this is to say we aren't in a much better place than we were a year ago, but fact remains we have a rookie QB, all new coaching staff, still have holes that need to be filled, and even beyond that, we have a very young team. On offense, Dalton (35), Thielen (32), Byrd (30), Hurst (29), Moton (28), Bozeman (28), Thomas (27), Corbett (27) are our oldest players, every other player on the offensive roster is 26 or under except for a couple backup OL, with a very young potential top core of Bryce (21), Ickey (22), TMJ (22), Mingo (22). On defense, of likely starters/rotation players you have, Williams (30), Rowe (30), Shaq (29), Bell (28) as the oldest players, every other starter or rotation player is 27 or under, with some of the best of them much younger like Luvu (26), Burns (25), Brown (25), Chinn (25), and Horn (23). I'm not knocking this team, we'll contend for the division this year because the South is down right now. Our time to be legitimate SB contenders is coming if this group can develop and stay healthy, but it's just not this year yet, and adding Hopkins won't change that. We're pretty much the Lions of last year, young team very much on the rise, will compete in almost every game, be in contention for a playoff spot going into the final weeks and may or may not make it, but either way we'll look like legitimate NFC contenders going into the following season. Let him chase as ring or money somewhere else on a 1 year deal this year and if he plays well and stays healthy, we go after him next offseason when we have a ton of cap room on a 2-3 year deal for him to hopefully give us a nasty Top 3 WRs of Hopkins, TMJ, and Mingo for the prime SB window of years 2-4 of Bryce's rookie deal. But again, TMJ and Mingo aren't going to ahve a chance to develop this year if we bring in Hopkins (assuming Chark stays healthy on the opposite side, if he can't it's a different story), the snaps/targets just won't be there for them.

I don't think adding Hopkins to this current team makes us much more of a SB contender, it makes us better, but we still have a rookie QB and other holes and young players that are still developing. And if we end up in the NFCC game without Hopkins, then not signing him would be the best thing we could have done as it would mean Chark balled out and had his best season and/or TMJ/Mingo went nuts and exploded into legitimate weapons and then that Hopkins money is best used elsewhere. If Hopkins made us a legitimate SB contender it's a different discussion, but unless you're just jaded by your Panther fandom, you can't look at this team and say that we're there yet this year, which isn't a bad thing, we're clearly very much on the rise.

You do realize that total yardage doesn't mean anything. There is an argument to be made that target heavy WR 1's can hinder the growth of a rookie QB, I kinda like having a whole bunch of WR 2's which he might have 4 of them this year. Particularly with a QB like Bryce who is supposed to be a savant mentally, having 4 dependable guys he can spread it around to evenly as opposed to one guy who he would depend on might be better for his development as well.

How many 4 WR sets do you expect us to run? If we sign him, the majority of snaps would be Hopkins, Chark, Thielen with TMJ and Mingo mixed in as a 4th WR at times and spot snaps the rest. Right now those two are slotted to split the 2nd outside WR duties and both on the field for most 4 WR sets, but if we sign Hopkins and Chark stays healthy, they'd take 90%+ of the outside WR snaps. TMJ has flashed potential and this is the year we need to see if he can grow as a player and we just drafted Mingo, it would make no sense to take snaps away from our 2nd round pick this year, need him to grow with Bryce.