panthers55

Dont agree that Agholor is anything special particularly for us. Safest pick? LOL I would take Cooper, White, Parker and Perriman before I would take Agholor. In fact I would consider Strong or DGB in the second before I would pick Agholor. They at least have size and strength and are a better fit for a vertical ball control offense with a quarterback who is inconsistent. Nelson will make a very good wide receiver in a WCO or Erhardt-Perkins offense which stretches the field horizontally where blocking is a luxury and not a necessity. Honestly we have fast guys in Ginn and Brown and need a bookend for Benjamin given few teams have 2 corners over 6'1" ft tall. It gives immediate match-up problems for any team. Another 6-2 or taller with a big catching radius is who we need IMHO. If we are settling for a average size average strength guy with middling blocking skills there are plenty in the draft. Gettleman likes guys with great physical skills who he can teach the fundamentals of the position. So someone like Coates or Funchess for example in the second or third offers a very high ceiling but are projects running routes and being a finished product. Who is Funchess most compared to in some analyses? Benjamin..... I might also take Waller in the 5th where we have 3 picks. Unless we think Stephen Hill might develop since Waller is the Stephen Hill of this draft.

I would expect you to use quantity stats instead of quality stats. Anyone knows that getting 1000 yards isnt hard if you get the ball 279 times like he did in 2013. But his yards per carry was under 4 and he averaged 1 touchdown every 50 rushes. He had 2 fantastic seasons and a third very good one. But his probowl appearances and his production dropped off after that. Starting in 2011 he got a big head and decided that he was worth a bunch of money and signed the biggest contract for a running back at 4 years and 53.5 million. Since he signed that contract his production dipped and he was not worth the spot he was drafted in or the money he was paid. If he had remained humble and played out his rookie contract I suspect he would have been more successful and certainly less entitled. He just follows a long line of folks who are great until they get a megacontract and underperform after that. So no my example was a good one if you look at more than what it is on the surface and aren't linear in your thinking.

Drafting is anything but simple and it is hard to say anything with certainty until things actually unfold. And the 6th best receiver versus number 1 corner was only for illustration not how I think it will go. The wide receiver field is strong as much for the depth as for the number of guys at the top. So there will be starters who can picked up through the first 3 rounds at receiver. If for example Goldman and Ogholor are both there at 25 for me it is a no brainer. One is a beast of a man who can be developed into the next Kris Jenkins for example while Ogholor offers little to distinguish himself from a physical or athletic choice. If we are picking the 6th or 7 th best player at a position I would opt for Left tackle instead of receiver. Harder to find and more expensive to pick up in free agency,

It is value question. Do you want the 6th best WR or the best corner? Secondly Benjamin is a huge physical specimen. I dont see that Ogholor is a physical specimen or that unique so there is no reason to pick him over someone else who would be a better value and close in ability.

Two things. Gettleman often likes physical specimens like Benjamin. Agholor is not the big target we need for Cam given his tendency to throw high and inaccurately. Secondly there are certain schools that for whatever reason have talented players who don't make it in the NFL but 16 in a row?? Again I would surely hope that he is the one to break the string particularly if we pick him. As a Panther fan, who wouldnt. I just think he is like many guys who shoot up the draft boards and are reaches. Reminds me of a ECU running back who shot up the board and was a first round pick- Chris Johnson. A guy who flamed out and ultimately was a reach. Just my opinion.

I dont see us looking at Agholor before the second. No way is he worth a first rounder being arguable the 5th or 6th best receiver in the draft. Why go for 6th best when you can get a similar talent in the third round and instead get a top corner, or other position. He just isnt a good value int he first and frankly isnt so unique we cant approximate his skills further down the draft. And yes being from USC is an issue since the last one of their receivers that really panned out was in the 90s. For whatever reason their guys do not pan out in the NFL and with the last 16 being busts si surely not pure chance.

Your right I am done. But before I go let me clarify a few things.. I am biased and opinionated. It is the human condition and since Spock died we are out of Vulcans. Everyone filters everything through a filter called your " already always knowing" . You see and hear what you expect to hear and respond to new information based on how it aligns which what you already know. I have the self awareness to see my preferences and biases while those believing they are unbiased and objective haven't little insight about their own inner workings. That is why eyewitness testimony is one of the worse pieces of evidence in terms of accuracy yet is most often believed by juries. One of the reasons that game film is not nearly as useful as people think. We all see the same thing but it is the interpretation of what we see or remember is biased by what we expect or want to see. My premise all along was that Agholor is a great receiver and so is Hardy. They are not the same and yet both hopefully will be productive. I think Hardy is a better value in the third than Agholar in the top of the second. I hope Agholar breaks the 16 year string of USC receivers underachieving after going high in the draft. If we take him I will be hopeful he is everything you believe. Why am I biased to Hardy. He is a walk on who worked his butt off to be a starter and get a scholarship and he will bring that same tenacity to the NFL knowing the blessing he has been given. He has grit and toughness and none of the swag of a big school receiver. He plays with something to prove. A common theme for the Panthers the past few years. He would be a great fit....

Everything you said for the most part is your opinion or gleaned from draft sites who typically parrot one another because they don't have time to watch everyone so they just repeat what someone else writes so they can all be wrong together. He isn't much faster, doesn't run better routes and only is a marginal blocker. I keep hearing about his yards after the catch but can't find any numbers which compare the two. Do you have any? May be you don't know that Hardy was also the Pirates punt returner and is also very good in the open field. As for the other points like Agholar knowing more about the pro route tree system, that is your opinion nothing more. I find nothing that suggests that Hardy knows less about the pro game or has a lower football IQ. And Agholar is not any more elusive or quick then Hardy. Just because you say it doesn't make it true. Will Agholar go higher than Hardy, almost guaranteed. But that rarely guarantees much. Busts among receivers is high and very high among USC receivers. It has been almost 20 years since they had one that was as good in the pros as in college. Does that matter? While he could be the exception to the rule, the last 16 guys before him weren't. So let's agree to disagree but there is little you said which are facts and not just opinions. So

Hardy will be good in any system because he works tirelessly, put out maximum effort, is a great route runner and a very aggressive blocker. Those things work everywhere. Of course we don't run an air raid offense but the system Cam came from much closer than what we run now. It isn't important if Hardy learned another system as long as he can run the whole route tree and understands football which he does. New England doesn't run an air raid system either for that matter. Do we use the slot receiver that much? When have we ever had a great one?

And in track it is called winning. In football it means little though. Otherwise the NFL would be overrun with track folks. But football personnel know that the sped thing is not even in the top three things which makes a great receiver.

Yeah He did. Obviously though sped isn't enough to make it as a receiver.

Because it isn't noteworthy in football like it is in track. That is why most analysts differentiate between straight line 40 speed and football speed. Acceleration and quickness are more important than top end speed or guys like Ginn would have gotten a ton more interest than he did.

I do remember that it run on an indoor track so that is a valid point but it underscores my argument. I disagree that there is much difference between the two times unless football is played on turf in shorts with no equipment. Grass is slower than turf so does that make Agholor at 4.5 guy on grass and Hardy a 4.6 guy given that natural grass is slower than turf. And who can run down the field in full gear faster looking over their shoulder on a corner route between the two? Shouldn't we be doing that if we really want to know who is faster on the field. Truth is that there are a bunch of variables which renders 40 times nice to know but not very useful unless you have bigger gaps in time. As most knowledgeable folks know, things like 3 cone and shuttle runs tell you a lot more than about agility, athleticism and quickness than a flat 40 time. Unless I am wrong and receivers take off out of blocks in a down position and don't have to focus on catching a ball. You guys confuse track speed with football speed which is very different.

First of all running in track clothes is much different than running in full football gear on grass so really the difference is not that much in game speed. Plus Hardy ran a 4.4 at his pro day so again if it so much then how can a guy improve that much unless it isnt a big deal. Lastly no one is saying that Nelson isnt a a very good route runner, I am simply saying that Hardy is a great runner also so Nelson is not necessarily better. As for running the route tree, Hardy did run it and the air raid offense is every bit as complex or moreso than USC. As you note, the fact that he was often used underneath and on come back routes doesnt mean he doesnt know all the routes simply he wasn't showcased many times. As for preferring Agholor, you aren't alone. He has climbed the draft boards over the past month and likely will be drafted ahead of Hardy. But I am not clear that is because of his ability as much as where he played and the visibility he had, but that is my opinion which is certainly biased.

Again if he ran a 4.56 at the combine ans he runs a 4.4 a month later then how are they so different? Answer they arent, or he coudnt have improved so much in one month. And having a better yards after the catch is often skewed by scheme and position. For example if you are a slot receiver who works underneath and has little time to even get open, your yards after the catch isnt going to that high. Plus the more catches you make there is often regression toward the mean just based on a higher number of chances. Secondly the air raid offense of the pirates is based on spreading the ball and working horizontally not vertically so deep routes are not emphasized which obviously improves your yards after the catch if you break free from the defender and your quarterback doesnt throw the ball 40 yards down the field on every deep ball. Again you can say all great things about a receiver and Nelson clearly is very good. But making head to head comparisons between players who play against different teams and run different schemes is not nearly as cut and dry and you try to make it appear. But I figure you would already know that........

I don't know that everyone agrees that he is even a better route runner. Hardy was observed by some to be the best route runner at the Senior Bowl which included guys expected to be drafted above him. Yeah I know Nelson wasnt at the senior bowl but the point is that Hardy is considered one of the best route runners in the draft. And yeah the difference between 4.42 and 4.56 is less than a full body length.FWIW Hardy ran a 4..4 at his pro day so if they are so different then how can he run that much faster a month after the combine? Obviously you arent expert enough to know that 40 times can easily change and you clearly put too much emphasis on a tenth of a second which players can vary from one performance to another. Again the numbers aren't that clear except in your opinion. If their40 times are similar then the argument that Nelson is a better deep threat or faster apparently isn't supported by fact either. Maybe stick with Agholar is quicker out of breaks although since he didn't run 3 cone or the shuttle at the combine or his pro day they don't have comparisons. As for game film, unless they are lined up against the same player running the same routes, what you see is how Agholar runs against the defenders he faced which were different than the ones Hardy faced. Do you have any film where they both competed against the same guy running similar routes? Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges.

Of course I have watched Nelson but not to the same level,I have watched Hardy extensively so unlike many here I don't just watch highlight reels or select plays or games and assume that I have enough expertise to make a judgement or comparison about every player. Notice I have not said that Nelson is not as good or denigrated him. I simply said you are underating Hardy and he would be a better value than Ogholor in my opinion given what is being reported about both by those in the media who do claim expert status. I pointed out that your opinion of Nelson is not universally held so it is not a given or something that is not open to debate. I respect your opinion but believe it is just that, your non expert opinion which is no more valid than any other opinion here. I wish more people would stop acting as if they are some kind of expert when they have had little or no formal training by an expert and only think they know what they are talking about. Some of us acknowledge we are fans and offer no expert status.

Obviously different sites have different analyses but much of you say about Agholar is not universally shared. The NFL draft site has him running a 4.42 while Hardy ran a 4.54. I don't want to hear that you can tell the difference which is less than the blink of an eye. Plus they noted his game speed is slower than his timed speed and he is an average blocker without top deep speed to blow by corners. http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/nelson-agholor?id=2552600 You can find sites which question Hardy's straight line speed and out of his break quickness . Yet his 3 cone drill results were top among all receivers. Agholor did not compete in the cone or shuttle due to injury. Even Hardy's shuttle time was decent at 4.21 while the top one among receivers in the combine was 4.06. And he was definitely not just a workout warrior. Honestly if we can get Hardy in the 3rd or 4th he is a much better value than Agholar in the second IMO. And while I claim no expertise in watching Agholar, I have watched Hardy extensively over his career.

I think your evaluation of Hardy while complementary suggests that he had issues with separation and quick route running. I think your film must also have shown that Hardy played with an incredibly porous offensive line and a quarterback who was inconsistent in his accuracy. Hardy rarely had time for many deep rotes and often was used working back to the ball when Carden was on the move. He was often used for a quick hitter or on third and 10 was the underneath guy who could run well after the catch. So his role was to find open areas and be the go to guy where Carden could throw it to an area and Hardy would go up or down to snag the ball and move the chains. You also should have noted how aggressive he is when blocking for a running back or another receiver. I am sure Nelson is a great receiver as well just noting that Hardy would be a good fit for what we do particularly given our line issues and inconsistent offense. He is a clutch performer who can make plays when everyone knows where the ball is going to go.

Strong is an athletic wide receiver who needs to learn better fundamentals. He does have great size and speed. Qualities you can't coach that much. Struggles with concentration. Where have we heard this before. He is the type of receiver we would love to have in the second if we go a different direction in the first than receiver. The problem is whether you are looking for a guy with a high ceiling who needs work or you want a guy with a higher floor but potentially a lower ceiling. If there is a run on wide receivers in the first I could see guys like Strong move up particularly with teams who can draft a guy and let him develop instead of being thrust into a starting role.

We are doing a good job of due diligence and looking at a bunch of guys we like and hope are going to be there at our picks. I think with Davis's not yet signed to a contract that anything is in play. I just wouldn't do it. But then again I am no expert.

DGB is a great physical specimen but the knock is he is lazy and undisciplined. Characteristics which are deadly in the NFL. Everyone has talent. The difference are the guys who are talented and have the intangibles as well. There are plenty of those guys available so that we don't have to take a chance on a guy who has issues.

He is a very interesting prospect but not as a first rounder if guys like Perriman or Strong are there as well. As you work into the second or third he becomes more intriguing. The problem for me is that Cam's style really plays better to large taller receivers with big catch radiuses. One of the problems with Smitty was difficullty getting him the ball particularly deep. I like him as a slot receiver, the only question is could we find someone almost as fast and with the same good hands further down in the draft or is he the BPA in the second or third. And do we draft him or lets say a DE or RB at that position.

It is hard to say what Gettleman seems to value the most. Common thought he loves his hog mollies but given we passed on OT last year and brought in Martin and Oher, the thought may be that we need to shore up other positions such as a RB, or WR or even a DE over a tackle that likely would not start right away. Compare that to a WR for example who might come in and play right away depending on who we pick. Or a guy like Gurley who could compete for stating time day one. I dont agree that Martin or Oher are Honda Civics. They are actually guys who started in the league and were good. Oher had injuries and Martin had the unfortune to be stuck on a Miami team with a crazy and undisciplined locker room. I think folks are going to be upset again when we skip over drafting a tackle in the first round and go elsewhere. Obviously it depends on who is available and who is taken at other positions. But there is no magic in the first round as to who will be a boom or bust compared to the second or third other than most times you hold on to the first rounder longer increasing the chance they stick simply because they were a first rounder. I want us to draft guys in the first 2 rounds that make an immediate impact rather than serve as depth for 2 years and then start.

I can get behind the idea of drafting a tackle or two and agree that as long as everyone understands they will be a project and we need vets with starting experience in the meantime we are in agreement. With that said I would draft a tackle in the third or fourth round given that there are very guys in the third who are not big drop offs from those available at 25. I don't think Oher or Martin will be as bad as Bell and believe that one or both will do a very good job for us. I am not resigned to bad play at this point. FWIW any player available in free agency is someone that another team either didn't want or didn't think they were worth paying what they wanted. I think Martin will thrive in this environment and am optimistic for Oher as well.