Icege

Just to clarify: I'm not arguing that height or footwork can't affect QB play. I'm asking how those concerns translate into measurable, consistent outcomes. That’s the standard we should be applying to all QBs, not just Bryce. If height is such a limitation, then we'd expect to see elevated batted passes or poor pressure evasion. Yet none of that shows up in the data. Bryce was one of the lowest in the league for batted passes and his 16.9 pressure-to-sack ratio is good enough for 9th out of all QBs with 300+ dropbacks. So if you believe footwork tied to height is a meaningful issue, what metric shows that because two that would aren't doing so? This isn't about denying flaws. It's about applying fair, consistent standards because otherwise we're not evaluating performance which means that it's not analysis taking place... it's just going off of the vibes that somebody has consciously decided on. Citing one red zone play you remember doesn't provide that consistent standard. I don't say that to dismiss your memory, but to emphasize that anecdotal evidence (especially from an avowed skeptic) shouldn’t carry more weight than consistent tape or analytics. For example, there was recently dissonance over Bryce's deep ball accuracy where it was implied that he was inaccurate throwing 20+ yards. Yet, the data and film show otherwise. And I unfortunately have to still ask since you won't directly answer: What specific metrics do you believe matter when evaluating whether a QB is top-10? You've mentioned YPA and passing yards per game, and that's fair. If that's what you're prioritizing, then let's call that your criteria but clarity matters because it prevents moving goalposts when the data doesn't match one's expectations. I appreciate the response and hope that your holiday weekend goes well also.

I'm arguing that should those supposed deficiencies, like height or pocket footwork, be as consequential as you and others have claimed, then there would be a clear, observable impact in the data. That's not unreasonable. For example, batted passes are often used as a size-related concern (see: Baker Mayfield), yet Bryce ranked among the lowest in deflections at the line. If his stature is such a limitation, why isn't it showing up there? Or are you suggesting that's why his passing yards fall short of your expectations? If the latter, I would hope that you're not discounting yards left on the field due to drops (of which he led the league in). Also, asking for specific, measurable benchmarks isn't aggression... it's accountability. If that feels uncomfortable, it might be worth reflecting on how much of your anti-Bryce argument is grounded in subjective perception rather than objective metrics. So, again: do you have any specific KPIs beyond total passing yardage, height, and weight that you consider relevant to evaluating whether a QB is top-10? If you want to add YPA and passing yards per game to those metrics, that's fair, just be clear about it. But let's not pretend that asking for clarity is some kind of provocation. I'm simply trying to understand the actual criteria... not just the vibes.

So... what metrics for production do you believe display these issues/limitations best? Are we only using total passing yards, height, and weight thresholds? If so, then what are those thresholds?

It speaks volumes that when asked to define a clear performance threshold the responses instead fixate on Bryce's size. It reinforces what’s been clear for a while now... that for some, it has never been nor will it ever be about production. Any struggles will always be chalked up to his frame, and any strong play will be downplayed or disqualified via highly mobile goalposts.

For the Panthers fans still low on Bryce and demanding that he be a top-10 QB this upcoming season: What stat(s) will you need to see? Not the vibe you want, but rather what does he need to be top-10 in specifically? Passing yards? Completion percentage? Win-loss record? PFF grades? EPA? CPOE? Asking because this was asked before and... well... it ended up that the folks down on him didn't care about the numbers as much as they cared that they just couldn't get passed his size regardless of how he performed. It would be nice to get a straight-forward answer to that without the usual deflection and redirecting.

It depends on the plan that Morgan/Canales have. If they're looking to build still, I can see them leaning into the young guys like with what they're doing at WR. If they're trying to take the training wheels off now and push for the division, then make the trade. I don't think that's the plan though... I think they look at how the team develops over the course of this season and then makes any big time moves based on those results.

Some of us see Linderbaum and Humphrey... But at the same time... Mays up there @ #6 as a sixth-round pick surrounded by first- and second- round guys is impressive and likely why they felt comfortable passing on them for other players.

Great find! Thanks for the link. For folks that are hesitant to click, they immediately start with Bryce. It's kind of funny though how much the conversation mirrors the Huddle. One person citing all of Bryce's stats showing improvement and progress, and the other ultimately circling back to, "He's just too small." Especially these two exchanges... To be fair, Derrick does provide more pointed criticisms like the lack of the screen game in Carolina, his issues with Bryce's timing in the short game, etc. A lot of it though seemed to ultimately circle back to, "too small." I guess in the end, that's what it boils down to. There's going to be fans that are eager to see Bryce perform well and look at different indicators of performance to track that potential development. Then there's going to be fans that, while they might no longer believe that Bryce can't be an NFL starter, they still believe that his size is going to prevent him from ever being a top-10 QB (which could potentially make the trade for him "worth it"). Most we can do is sit and wait.

Eh... the film and the stats don't really backup the backup allegations: top-10 pass-blocking grade, top-25 run-blocking grade, top-20 overall grade. He's got potential and was really starting to put things together at the end of the season. Him and Hunt offset each others' weaknesses fairly well imo. Mays is the better pass-blocker while Hunt the better run-blocker. Even so, the team needs to do their due diligence on the center position imo. Corbett can't be seen as anything more than a one year rental barring a sudden turnaround this season when it comes to his availability. Prospects that I've got my eyes on for 2026: Jake Slaughter (Florida) Iapani Laloulu (Oregon) Parker Brailsford (Alabama) Logan Jones (Iowa) Connor Tollison (Missouri) Connor Lew (Auburn)

Sounds like he wasn't picked up and is now on the Panthers' IR. THE DREAM STILL LIVES

There are a lot of question marks surrounding TMo right now. There were whispers leading into the draft that the team was ready to move on due to a knee issue, but they came away with no real backup plan outside of BC. Maybe the knee isn't as serious as feared… or maybe it was just front office gamesmanship, like we saw with the Jalon Walker rumors. With Icky's second contract on the horizon, the team's probably hoping Moton is open to a team-friendly extension. His consistency over the years has been incredibly underappreciated. Hunt's grades dipped last season--particularly in pass pro, where he ranked 54th among guards with 500+ pass-blocking snaps. That's not ideal, but when you step back, it's still starting-caliber play. In the run game, he was more effective--posting the 14th-highest run-blocking grade among guards with 300+ run-blocking snaps. DLew, meanwhile, was a warrior. He played through a shoulder injury all season and still ranked 17th in pass-blocking + 10th in run-blocking under those same filters. Context matters here too... in terms of 2024 cap hits, Hunt was the 17th-highest paid guard at $6.45M while DLew was 25th at $4.9M. DLew absolutely outplayed the first year of his deal. Looking ahead, Hunt will carry the #3 highest cap hit among guards in 2025 at $21.65M, while DLew will be #10 at $14.57M. If DLew maintains that level of play and Hunt bounces back in pass pro? Oooh wee mayne. That said, decisions are coming. DLew can be cut in 2026 for $9M in savings, or in 2027 for $13M. Hunt is more locked in: his contract opens up flexibility starting in 2027 ($14.3M savings) and jumps to $18M in 2028. And then there's the biggest unresolved piece: center. Cade Mays looked solid when called upon, and Christensen didn't look out of place either. Corbett's durability is a fair concern... he hasn't been able to stay on the field the past two years. If Mays locks down the center job, I think the front office moves quickly to secure RT next. Once the bookends are in place, the interior OL becomes the next long-term focus. Hopefully, they're already developing some of those answers internally.

So... deep throws under pressure? There's 18 of those, total--six targeting Legette of which four were incomplete. @ PHI was the drop with less than a minute to play. @ DAL was on a broken play where Bryce avoided a sack but XL came down OOB due to DaRon Bland pushing him out @ TB the first incompletion is debatable in terms of catchability, but it looks to me like XL lost it in the sun for a split second as it came down. @ TB again was a bit of an underthrow with a helmet in Bryce's chest. DB was able to cleanly swipe it away for the pass deflection So out of all of those plays, there's two that fit the original criteria set... maybe three if we want to blame Bryce for Bland pushing XL OOB. But let's widen scope to be for all incomplete passes, not just those targeting XL. Seven plays fit those parameters. We have already covered four which leaves us with just these three: Overthrow to Coker vs. NO Drop by David Moore in the endzone vs. KC Overthrow to JT vs PHI while scrambling, but it looks like JT was supposed to keep going because he ended up in the same place as XL That leaves us with a total of, at max (after putting on anti-Bryce shades): 5 out of 18 deep passes that were uncatchable. That means that under pressure Bryce was even better than he was with a clean pocket, throwing a catchable ball on 72% of his throws over 20+ yards.

Stashing him for next year

I just rewatched the 3.5min video and counted only two, arguably three uncatchable balls to XL. He had at least four drops. What are the timestamps for the throws you saw that were uncatchable?

Definitely looks that way when 40% of the passes are uncatchable. That would mean that 14 of those 35 passes would not be catchable. But for perspective, these are the rankings they've shown thus far in the top-10: 1. Michael Penix Jr (77% on 13 attempts) 2. Anthony Richardson (76% on 33 attempts) 4. Brock Purdy (69% on 32 attempts) 5. Dak Prescott (68% on 22 attempts) 6. Joe Burrow (66% on 35 attempts) t10. Bryce Young (60% on 35 attempts) t10. Baker Mayfield (60% on 35 attempts)

That's a tiny bit of revisionist history there. The OL was definitely viewed as one of the stronger units going into the season, but then we saw different offenses that leaned heavily on a zone scheme rather than the power game that the line had excelled at under Wilks. Sanders was seen as somebody that could perform so long as he had a strong OL like he did in PHI. The assumptions about him were based on the OL, which then was decimated by injuries over the course of the season. Nobody loved the Chark addition. I might have been one of the fans that was higher on him and even I was hesitant to anoint him as the X. AT was applauded though (and rightfully so). Bryce got asked to uplift all of that as a rookie, then was excoriated by the Stroud Boys on here that really wanted us to believe that DJ Chark was better than Nico Collins and Tank Dell. (Counting down until the usual suspects get butthurt about that last paragraph... :p)

Several Huddlers mentioned the states of other position groups in the WR evolution thread, so I figured... Why not? Let's throw something about the OL together. Snap counts btw include ST, but JJ Jansen is not included because it would be an insult to the GOAT for him to not have his own thread (which I'm not making). 2023: Revolving Doors Projected OL: Ikem Ekwonu, Brady Christensen, Bradley Bozeman, Austin Corbett, Taylor Moton Week 1: Ikem Ekwonu, Brady Christensen, Bradley Bozeman, Chandler Zavala, Taylor Moton Week 18: Ikem Ekwonu, Gabe Jackson, Bradley Bozeman, Nash Jensen, Taylor Moton Snap Counts: Ikem Ekwonu (1,201), Taylor Moton (1,201), Bradley Bozeman (1,149), Calvin Throckmorton (544), Cade Mays (486), Chandler Zavala (403), Nash Jensen (334), Austin Corbett (261), Gabe Jackson (205), Justin McCray (84), Brett Toth (80, Brady Christensen (79), David Sharpe (24), Ricky Lee (24), J.D. DiRenzo (14) What Happened?: OL Hell. Corbett was out most of the season and then was reinjured shortly after returning. BC only got to play week one (finishing the game with a torn biceps). The interior became a weekly shuffling of overwhelmed rookies, emergency vets, and waiver claims to try and survive the season. BY9 ended up being the second most sacked rookie QB of all time (now third after Caleb Williams' rookie campaign). The team ended up starting 6 LGs and 7 RGs (in total, they played 8 different LGs and 9 different RGs). There was constant interior pressure, missed stunts, and zero chemistry. This was an insane fall off when the OL looked to be a strength at the end of 2022, but there was a scheme shift from a power run game to a lot more zone. Verdict: Icky and TMo were the glue while Bozeman was stuck between a turnstile and a parking cone. These three did their best to be the glue, but there was only so much that could be done with the injury issues and catastrophe that would end up being the coaching staff. 2024: Changing of the Guards Projected OL: Ikem Ekwonu, Damien Lewis, Austin Corbett, Robert Hunt, Taylor Moton Week 1: Ikem Ekwonu, Damien Lewis, Austin Corbett, Robert Hunt, Taylor Moton Week 18: Ikem Ekwonu , Damien Lewis, Cade Mays, Chandler Zavala, Taylor Moton Snap Counts: Robert Hunt (1,022), Damien Lewis (999), Ikem Ekwonu (963), Taylor Moton (899), Cade Mays (502), Brady Christensen (448), Austin Corbett (292), Chandler Zavala (259), Yosh Nijman (255), Jarrett Kingston (25), Andrew Raym (4), Brandon Walton (4) What Happened?: Solved the LG + RG issues by reuniting Lewis with Canales and paying the best RG in free agency (Hunt). Corbett again didn't finish the season, but Cade Mays was brought back and he filled in admirably. BC played almost every position on the OL and provided a valuable back-up + OL6. Zavala even looked better and more comfortable. Icky continued to show promising development as well, earning himself the team picking up his bonus option. The team churned the bottom of the group a bit, using special teams as a way to evaluate them. Verdict: The team has four of the five OL spots now occupied with true starters for the following 2 - 3 seasons. The results showed on the field as the offense became who carried the team through the season. The team was left in a position to develop depth and find a long-term solution for the center position. 2025: What 2023 Should've Been? Projected OL LT: Ikem Ekwonu LG: Damien Lewis C : Austin Corbett/Cade Mays RG: Robert Hunt RT: Taylor Moton What Might Happen?: The biggest question mark is obviously the center position and who comes away as the starter? Icky and TMo have been the only constants on this OL, but there was rumours this offseason that TMo has knee issues. Icky is going to be due a payday soon as well. BC provides a high-quality second-stringer at every position, but the team still needs to develop some young backups. Zavala and Kingston both provide depth at guard, but the team looks a little thin at tackle with Nijman and Walton being the next two up there. If the starting unit can remain healthy, especially the tackles, the team can continue to build off of the progress that they made in the second half of the 2024 - 2025 season.

Was originally thinking about including TEs in the write up as an overall view at the "weapons" but was too lazy to do RBs as well. But at a glance... 2023 RBs: Miles Sanders, Chuba Hubbard, Raheem Blackshear TEs: Hayden Hurst, Ian Thomas, Tommy Tremble, Stephen Sullivan, Giovanni Ricci 2024 RBs: Miles Sanders, Chuba Hubbard, Raheem Blackshear, Jonathon Brooks, Mike Boone TEs: Ja'Tavion Sanders, Tommy Tremble, Ian Thomas, Feleipe Franks, Jordan Matthews 2025: Projected RBs: Chuba Hubbard, Rico Dowdle, Trevor Etienne, Raheem Blackshear Projected TEs: Ja'Tavion Sanders, Tommy Tremble, Mitchell Evans

Wanted to take a step back and look at how the Panthers' WR room has evolved over the past three seasons... especially now that Bryce finally has a corps with defined roles and actual upside heading into 2025. It's been a journey from stopgap veterans to a room that actually feels built for a modern NFL offense. We've come a long way from DJ Chark and TMJ. Speaking of... 2023: Inseparable WRs: Adam Thielen (slot), DJ Chark (X), Terrace Marshall Jr. (Y), Jonathan Mingo (rookie), Laviska Shenault, Ihmir Smith-Marsette What Happened: Bryce's rookie year. Thielen was productive but heavily targeted out of necessity. Chark couldn't stay healthy, and TMJ didn't break out (again). Mingo was raw and got bounced between roles. Shenault was a gadget guy. ISM was a special teams guy that eventually took Shenault's role. No clear WR1, no deep speed threat, and nothing consistent beyond Thielen. Bryce was throwing into tight windows constantly. TMJ started at Y but was inactive after Shenault returned. Mingo was drafted by Reich/Fitterer, while TMJ was a Rhule/Hurney holdover - so Mingo got more looks down the stretch as a possible possession WR2. Verdict: Ultimately, this was a group of veteran placeholders and miscast youth that had no real identity and was built for survival rather than development. 2024: The Reset WRs: Adam Thielen (slot), Diontae Johnson (X), Xavier Legette (Y, rookie), Jonathan Mingo, Jalen Coker (rookie), David Moore What Changed: New leadership brought in two guy to try and provide some juice to a group that was at the bottom of the league in separation. They traded for Diontae to play the X and up to #32 to draft XL as a long term Y with WR1 upside. Mingo backed up the slot and rotated outside before being dealt. Coker, a UDFA, started flashing early doing what was being asked of Mingo. Diontae was moved midseason after attitude issues. Mingo was dealt to Dallas with a 7th in exchange for a 2025 3rd - insane value considering Coker's emergence and what other WR trades have netted teams. Coker stepped into WR3 duties after the trades and held it down until Thielen returned from injury. XL earned praise for his toughness playing thru injury but had issues with drops that frustrated fans. Hopefully, his timing with Bryce improves in 2025. Coker filled that power slot/possession role the team hoped Mingo would grow into, and he did it with more consistency. Verdict: The room got younger and more intentional. Diontae and Mingo weren't fits (the former due to attitude, the latter due to scheme), and once they were out, you could see the group trending upward. 2025: Real ID Projected WRs: Tetairoa McMillan (X), Xavier Legette (Y), Adam Thielen (slot), Jalen Coker, Jimmy Horn Jr (rookie)., and a battle for WR6 (David Moore, Hunter Renfrow, Jacolby George) The Vision: TMac was the pick at #8 overall and finally gives Bryce a real X with size, body control, and a presence in the red zone. XL gets to stay at the Y where he is a better fit until he develops further. AT becomes the vet/mentor rather than having to be WR1 as a slot receiver in his mid-30s. Coker offers rotational size and reliability to go along with his excellent hands. Jimmy Horn Jr. brings some of the speed and agility that Diontae brought last year, but with value as a returner as well. WR6 could come down to who brings more value on ST. It wouldn't surprise me to see Renfrow stashed on the PS. Verdict: Finally feels like a WR room built for Bryce instead of just giving him a few guys and demanding that he make them a top-10 unit. It has structure... size on the outside, RAC potential, vets inside, and defined depth roles. We've still got plenty of questions waiting to be answered: Who wins the WR6 spot? Does XL take the next step in year two? Does TMac hold up to expectations for a top-8 draft pick? Is the room truly improved or does it still lack a true separator amongst them? Still.. it's pretty cool stepping back and seeing how things have evolved over the last few seasons.

Woa there, Cinderella. Just because the shoe might fit doesn't mean that you need to put it on and run around inside the store. Wild how you open by saying "almost nobody wants to lose," and then immediately launch into why winning under Wilks was bad, why the culture didn't actually improve, and why the team should've leaned harder into failure to get better draft position... That's not "reality." It's just more performative fatalism where every sign of progress gets reframed as a mirage, and every win is a setback unless it comes with a Lombardi. These are Olympics-level mental gymnastics designed to justify a perspective where the Panthers only deserve credit after success but are poo on for trying to build towards it. You call it "ridiculous" to link this mindset with the endless Bryce hate (yours included, of course), but let's be honest: you have made that your brand as much as you like to claim that the Panthers have made being losing theirs. Every time progress gets mentioned, it's like clockwork... here comes the obligatory reminder that Bryce "isn't the guy" and that any progress he made didn't count because <insert moving goalpost here>. I have to tell you... that doesn't sound very "adult."

Hey little buddy, that's covered in the post above your's but seeing as how it literally took you days to figure out what a Big-Time Throw was... let me give you a hand: League-wide, the average draft hits on about 30 - 40% of its picks when teams have a standard seven selections. So if you walk away with 3 - 4 real contributors... that's considered a solid class. Hitting on 4 out of 11 is right in that range.

Some social media intern just got their wrist slapped.

Oh wow...

It's hard not to notice that most of the fans pushing pro-tank or anti-culture takes also happen to be down on Bryce. Feels more connected than coincidence.