Icege

Great find! Thanks for the link. For folks that are hesitant to click, they immediately start with Bryce. It's kind of funny though how much the conversation mirrors the Huddle. One person citing all of Bryce's stats showing improvement and progress, and the other ultimately circling back to, "He's just too small." Especially these two exchanges... To be fair, Derrick does provide more pointed criticisms like the lack of the screen game in Carolina, his issues with Bryce's timing in the short game, etc. A lot of it though seemed to ultimately circle back to, "too small." I guess in the end, that's what it boils down to. There's going to be fans that are eager to see Bryce perform well and look at different indicators of performance to track that potential development. Then there's going to be fans that, while they might no longer believe that Bryce can't be an NFL starter, they still believe that his size is going to prevent him from ever being a top-10 QB (which could potentially make the trade for him "worth it"). Most we can do is sit and wait.

Eh... the film and the stats don't really backup the backup allegations: top-10 pass-blocking grade, top-25 run-blocking grade, top-20 overall grade. He's got potential and was really starting to put things together at the end of the season. Him and Hunt offset each others' weaknesses fairly well imo. Mays is the better pass-blocker while Hunt the better run-blocker. Even so, the team needs to do their due diligence on the center position imo. Corbett can't be seen as anything more than a one year rental barring a sudden turnaround this season when it comes to his availability. Prospects that I've got my eyes on for 2026: Jake Slaughter (Florida) Iapani Laloulu (Oregon) Parker Brailsford (Alabama) Logan Jones (Iowa) Connor Tollison (Missouri) Connor Lew (Auburn)

Sounds like he wasn't picked up and is now on the Panthers' IR. THE DREAM STILL LIVES

There are a lot of question marks surrounding TMo right now. There were whispers leading into the draft that the team was ready to move on due to a knee issue, but they came away with no real backup plan outside of BC. Maybe the knee isn't as serious as feared… or maybe it was just front office gamesmanship, like we saw with the Jalon Walker rumors. With Icky's second contract on the horizon, the team's probably hoping Moton is open to a team-friendly extension. His consistency over the years has been incredibly underappreciated. Hunt's grades dipped last season--particularly in pass pro, where he ranked 54th among guards with 500+ pass-blocking snaps. That's not ideal, but when you step back, it's still starting-caliber play. In the run game, he was more effective--posting the 14th-highest run-blocking grade among guards with 300+ run-blocking snaps. DLew, meanwhile, was a warrior. He played through a shoulder injury all season and still ranked 17th in pass-blocking + 10th in run-blocking under those same filters. Context matters here too... in terms of 2024 cap hits, Hunt was the 17th-highest paid guard at $6.45M while DLew was 25th at $4.9M. DLew absolutely outplayed the first year of his deal. Looking ahead, Hunt will carry the #3 highest cap hit among guards in 2025 at $21.65M, while DLew will be #10 at $14.57M. If DLew maintains that level of play and Hunt bounces back in pass pro? Oooh wee mayne. That said, decisions are coming. DLew can be cut in 2026 for $9M in savings, or in 2027 for $13M. Hunt is more locked in: his contract opens up flexibility starting in 2027 ($14.3M savings) and jumps to $18M in 2028. And then there's the biggest unresolved piece: center. Cade Mays looked solid when called upon, and Christensen didn't look out of place either. Corbett's durability is a fair concern... he hasn't been able to stay on the field the past two years. If Mays locks down the center job, I think the front office moves quickly to secure RT next. Once the bookends are in place, the interior OL becomes the next long-term focus. Hopefully, they're already developing some of those answers internally.

So... deep throws under pressure? There's 18 of those, total--six targeting Legette of which four were incomplete. @ PHI was the drop with less than a minute to play. @ DAL was on a broken play where Bryce avoided a sack but XL came down OOB due to DaRon Bland pushing him out @ TB the first incompletion is debatable in terms of catchability, but it looks to me like XL lost it in the sun for a split second as it came down. @ TB again was a bit of an underthrow with a helmet in Bryce's chest. DB was able to cleanly swipe it away for the pass deflection So out of all of those plays, there's two that fit the original criteria set... maybe three if we want to blame Bryce for Bland pushing XL OOB. But let's widen scope to be for all incomplete passes, not just those targeting XL. Seven plays fit those parameters. We have already covered four which leaves us with just these three: Overthrow to Coker vs. NO Drop by David Moore in the endzone vs. KC Overthrow to JT vs PHI while scrambling, but it looks like JT was supposed to keep going because he ended up in the same place as XL That leaves us with a total of, at max (after putting on anti-Bryce shades): 5 out of 18 deep passes that were uncatchable. That means that under pressure Bryce was even better than he was with a clean pocket, throwing a catchable ball on 72% of his throws over 20+ yards.

Stashing him for next year

I just rewatched the 3.5min video and counted only two, arguably three uncatchable balls to XL. He had at least four drops. What are the timestamps for the throws you saw that were uncatchable?

Definitely looks that way when 40% of the passes are uncatchable. That would mean that 14 of those 35 passes would not be catchable. But for perspective, these are the rankings they've shown thus far in the top-10: 1. Michael Penix Jr (77% on 13 attempts) 2. Anthony Richardson (76% on 33 attempts) 4. Brock Purdy (69% on 32 attempts) 5. Dak Prescott (68% on 22 attempts) 6. Joe Burrow (66% on 35 attempts) t10. Bryce Young (60% on 35 attempts) t10. Baker Mayfield (60% on 35 attempts)

That's a tiny bit of revisionist history there. The OL was definitely viewed as one of the stronger units going into the season, but then we saw different offenses that leaned heavily on a zone scheme rather than the power game that the line had excelled at under Wilks. Sanders was seen as somebody that could perform so long as he had a strong OL like he did in PHI. The assumptions about him were based on the OL, which then was decimated by injuries over the course of the season. Nobody loved the Chark addition. I might have been one of the fans that was higher on him and even I was hesitant to anoint him as the X. AT was applauded though (and rightfully so). Bryce got asked to uplift all of that as a rookie, then was excoriated by the Stroud Boys on here that really wanted us to believe that DJ Chark was better than Nico Collins and Tank Dell. (Counting down until the usual suspects get butthurt about that last paragraph... :p)

Several Huddlers mentioned the states of other position groups in the WR evolution thread, so I figured... Why not? Let's throw something about the OL together. Snap counts btw include ST, but JJ Jansen is not included because it would be an insult to the GOAT for him to not have his own thread (which I'm not making). 2023: Revolving Doors Projected OL: Ikem Ekwonu, Brady Christensen, Bradley Bozeman, Austin Corbett, Taylor Moton Week 1: Ikem Ekwonu, Brady Christensen, Bradley Bozeman, Chandler Zavala, Taylor Moton Week 18: Ikem Ekwonu, Gabe Jackson, Bradley Bozeman, Nash Jensen, Taylor Moton Snap Counts: Ikem Ekwonu (1,201), Taylor Moton (1,201), Bradley Bozeman (1,149), Calvin Throckmorton (544), Cade Mays (486), Chandler Zavala (403), Nash Jensen (334), Austin Corbett (261), Gabe Jackson (205), Justin McCray (84), Brett Toth (80, Brady Christensen (79), David Sharpe (24), Ricky Lee (24), J.D. DiRenzo (14) What Happened?: OL Hell. Corbett was out most of the season and then was reinjured shortly after returning. BC only got to play week one (finishing the game with a torn biceps). The interior became a weekly shuffling of overwhelmed rookies, emergency vets, and waiver claims to try and survive the season. BY9 ended up being the second most sacked rookie QB of all time (now third after Caleb Williams' rookie campaign). The team ended up starting 6 LGs and 7 RGs (in total, they played 8 different LGs and 9 different RGs). There was constant interior pressure, missed stunts, and zero chemistry. This was an insane fall off when the OL looked to be a strength at the end of 2022, but there was a scheme shift from a power run game to a lot more zone. Verdict: Icky and TMo were the glue while Bozeman was stuck between a turnstile and a parking cone. These three did their best to be the glue, but there was only so much that could be done with the injury issues and catastrophe that would end up being the coaching staff. 2024: Changing of the Guards Projected OL: Ikem Ekwonu, Damien Lewis, Austin Corbett, Robert Hunt, Taylor Moton Week 1: Ikem Ekwonu, Damien Lewis, Austin Corbett, Robert Hunt, Taylor Moton Week 18: Ikem Ekwonu , Damien Lewis, Cade Mays, Chandler Zavala, Taylor Moton Snap Counts: Robert Hunt (1,022), Damien Lewis (999), Ikem Ekwonu (963), Taylor Moton (899), Cade Mays (502), Brady Christensen (448), Austin Corbett (292), Chandler Zavala (259), Yosh Nijman (255), Jarrett Kingston (25), Andrew Raym (4), Brandon Walton (4) What Happened?: Solved the LG + RG issues by reuniting Lewis with Canales and paying the best RG in free agency (Hunt). Corbett again didn't finish the season, but Cade Mays was brought back and he filled in admirably. BC played almost every position on the OL and provided a valuable back-up + OL6. Zavala even looked better and more comfortable. Icky continued to show promising development as well, earning himself the team picking up his bonus option. The team churned the bottom of the group a bit, using special teams as a way to evaluate them. Verdict: The team has four of the five OL spots now occupied with true starters for the following 2 - 3 seasons. The results showed on the field as the offense became who carried the team through the season. The team was left in a position to develop depth and find a long-term solution for the center position. 2025: What 2023 Should've Been? Projected OL LT: Ikem Ekwonu LG: Damien Lewis C : Austin Corbett/Cade Mays RG: Robert Hunt RT: Taylor Moton What Might Happen?: The biggest question mark is obviously the center position and who comes away as the starter? Icky and TMo have been the only constants on this OL, but there was rumours this offseason that TMo has knee issues. Icky is going to be due a payday soon as well. BC provides a high-quality second-stringer at every position, but the team still needs to develop some young backups. Zavala and Kingston both provide depth at guard, but the team looks a little thin at tackle with Nijman and Walton being the next two up there. If the starting unit can remain healthy, especially the tackles, the team can continue to build off of the progress that they made in the second half of the 2024 - 2025 season.

Was originally thinking about including TEs in the write up as an overall view at the "weapons" but was too lazy to do RBs as well. But at a glance... 2023 RBs: Miles Sanders, Chuba Hubbard, Raheem Blackshear TEs: Hayden Hurst, Ian Thomas, Tommy Tremble, Stephen Sullivan, Giovanni Ricci 2024 RBs: Miles Sanders, Chuba Hubbard, Raheem Blackshear, Jonathon Brooks, Mike Boone TEs: Ja'Tavion Sanders, Tommy Tremble, Ian Thomas, Feleipe Franks, Jordan Matthews 2025: Projected RBs: Chuba Hubbard, Rico Dowdle, Trevor Etienne, Raheem Blackshear Projected TEs: Ja'Tavion Sanders, Tommy Tremble, Mitchell Evans

Wanted to take a step back and look at how the Panthers' WR room has evolved over the past three seasons... especially now that Bryce finally has a corps with defined roles and actual upside heading into 2025. It's been a journey from stopgap veterans to a room that actually feels built for a modern NFL offense. We've come a long way from DJ Chark and TMJ. Speaking of... 2023: Inseparable WRs: Adam Thielen (slot), DJ Chark (X), Terrace Marshall Jr. (Y), Jonathan Mingo (rookie), Laviska Shenault, Ihmir Smith-Marsette What Happened: Bryce's rookie year. Thielen was productive but heavily targeted out of necessity. Chark couldn't stay healthy, and TMJ didn't break out (again). Mingo was raw and got bounced between roles. Shenault was a gadget guy. ISM was a special teams guy that eventually took Shenault's role. No clear WR1, no deep speed threat, and nothing consistent beyond Thielen. Bryce was throwing into tight windows constantly. TMJ started at Y but was inactive after Shenault returned. Mingo was drafted by Reich/Fitterer, while TMJ was a Rhule/Hurney holdover - so Mingo got more looks down the stretch as a possible possession WR2. Verdict: Ultimately, this was a group of veteran placeholders and miscast youth that had no real identity and was built for survival rather than development. 2024: The Reset WRs: Adam Thielen (slot), Diontae Johnson (X), Xavier Legette (Y, rookie), Jonathan Mingo, Jalen Coker (rookie), David Moore What Changed: New leadership brought in two guy to try and provide some juice to a group that was at the bottom of the league in separation. They traded for Diontae to play the X and up to #32 to draft XL as a long term Y with WR1 upside. Mingo backed up the slot and rotated outside before being dealt. Coker, a UDFA, started flashing early doing what was being asked of Mingo. Diontae was moved midseason after attitude issues. Mingo was dealt to Dallas with a 7th in exchange for a 2025 3rd - insane value considering Coker's emergence and what other WR trades have netted teams. Coker stepped into WR3 duties after the trades and held it down until Thielen returned from injury. XL earned praise for his toughness playing thru injury but had issues with drops that frustrated fans. Hopefully, his timing with Bryce improves in 2025. Coker filled that power slot/possession role the team hoped Mingo would grow into, and he did it with more consistency. Verdict: The room got younger and more intentional. Diontae and Mingo weren't fits (the former due to attitude, the latter due to scheme), and once they were out, you could see the group trending upward. 2025: Real ID Projected WRs: Tetairoa McMillan (X), Xavier Legette (Y), Adam Thielen (slot), Jalen Coker, Jimmy Horn Jr (rookie)., and a battle for WR6 (David Moore, Hunter Renfrow, Jacolby George) The Vision: TMac was the pick at #8 overall and finally gives Bryce a real X with size, body control, and a presence in the red zone. XL gets to stay at the Y where he is a better fit until he develops further. AT becomes the vet/mentor rather than having to be WR1 as a slot receiver in his mid-30s. Coker offers rotational size and reliability to go along with his excellent hands. Jimmy Horn Jr. brings some of the speed and agility that Diontae brought last year, but with value as a returner as well. WR6 could come down to who brings more value on ST. It wouldn't surprise me to see Renfrow stashed on the PS. Verdict: Finally feels like a WR room built for Bryce instead of just giving him a few guys and demanding that he make them a top-10 unit. It has structure... size on the outside, RAC potential, vets inside, and defined depth roles. We've still got plenty of questions waiting to be answered: Who wins the WR6 spot? Does XL take the next step in year two? Does TMac hold up to expectations for a top-8 draft pick? Is the room truly improved or does it still lack a true separator amongst them? Still.. it's pretty cool stepping back and seeing how things have evolved over the last few seasons.

Woa there, Cinderella. Just because the shoe might fit doesn't mean that you need to put it on and run around inside the store. Wild how you open by saying "almost nobody wants to lose," and then immediately launch into why winning under Wilks was bad, why the culture didn't actually improve, and why the team should've leaned harder into failure to get better draft position... That's not "reality." It's just more performative fatalism where every sign of progress gets reframed as a mirage, and every win is a setback unless it comes with a Lombardi. These are Olympics-level mental gymnastics designed to justify a perspective where the Panthers only deserve credit after success but are poo on for trying to build towards it. You call it "ridiculous" to link this mindset with the endless Bryce hate (yours included, of course), but let's be honest: you have made that your brand as much as you like to claim that the Panthers have made being losing theirs. Every time progress gets mentioned, it's like clockwork... here comes the obligatory reminder that Bryce "isn't the guy" and that any progress he made didn't count because <insert moving goalpost here>. I have to tell you... that doesn't sound very "adult."

Hey little buddy, that's covered in the post above your's but seeing as how it literally took you days to figure out what a Big-Time Throw was... let me give you a hand: League-wide, the average draft hits on about 30 - 40% of its picks when teams have a standard seven selections. So if you walk away with 3 - 4 real contributors... that's considered a solid class. Hitting on 4 out of 11 is right in that range.

Some social media intern just got their wrist slapped.

Oh wow...

It's hard not to notice that most of the fans pushing pro-tank or anti-culture takes also happen to be down on Bryce. Feels more connected than coincidence.

The draft isn't a vending machine where you insert a pick, press A3, and out pops a franchise cornerstone. It’s more like a gacha game - you turn in a premium (or non-premium) ticket, hear the fun little jingle, and wait to see what you pulled... without knowing how strong it'll actually end up. League-wide, the average draft hits on about 30 - 40% of its picks when teams have a standard seven selections. So if you walk away with 3 - 4 real contributors... that's considered a solid class. Hitting on 4 out of 11 is right in that range. To be clear: this isn't some veiled endorsement of Tepper, Fitterer, or Rhule. It’s simply an honest accounting of which players from that class are still with the Panthers and heading into their fourth year - and thus outlasting the average NFL career. Just trying to lean more toward more critiquing with clarity rather than lighting it all on fire for the spectacle of the flames.

How can your plan that has been laid out be correct when it involves the GM making the right moves and still getting fired so that a new, more capable front office and coaching staff can takeover? That is a fantasy that you're trying to present as reallty.

A franchise CB, starting RB, reliable TE2, and a top OL6 is a bad draft? That doompill some folks seem to take every morning does some crazy work.

Aaand this confirms the core disconnect. You view tanking as a guaranteed payoff with no organizational risk, even under a GM you didn't trust. That's not strategic thinking... that's revisionist certainty. "No risk when you're that bad" is also a wild take when the team under Wilks rallied and was almost able to steal a playoff spot in a weak NFC South. That wasn't nothing... it was proof that the locker room still had fight.

Looking Back at the 2021 Panthers Draft Class An NFL player's career on average is said to last just slightly over three years, and because of that, it's considered a general rule of thumb that by Year 3, a team knows what kind of professional football player a pick has developed into. While there are always exceptions to the rule, that's not the point of this topic. This is about the players who are still on the team after being picked up in the 2021 draft (or as UDFAs). Only four remain on the roster today: Jaycee Horn, Chuba Hubbard, Tommy Tremble, and Brady Christensen. Two of them signed significant contract extensions with the team (Horn, Hubbard) while the other two (Tremble, Christensen) received short-term deals that aren't cap-heavy. It's worth mentioning the conditions these guys entered the league under Matt Rhule's second year and Scott Fitterer's first. A ton of players were brought in that year, including a long snapper who didn't make the team… instead of Trey Smith, who just happens to be the Chiefs' starting guard (hey... to be fair to Thomas Fletcher, he did have a fun draft day phone call). These four survived Rhule and Reich and were seen as valuable enough under the first-year combo of Morgan and Canales to be rewarded with second deals. Jaycee Horn (Round 1, Pick 8.) Horn has all of the traits of a true CB1: elite footwork, physicality, and the ability to mirror WR1s... but his biggest challenge has been staying on the field. He's never finished an entire season, though to be fair, it's been rumored he wouldn’t have been shut down for the final two weeks of last season had the team been in playoff contention. He's got just 37 career games played over four seasons (with 15 of those coming in Morgan/Canales' Year 1). The team gambled on his production after seeing that not only can he lock down WR1s in man or match quarters, but he can also be dependable in a heavy cover-3 zone scheme like what the Panthers ran last season. With the recent free agent and draft additions made this offseason, expect Jaycee to go back to eliminating WR1s from the game rather than shutting down a third of the field like he was recently asked to do. Chuba Hubbard (Round 4, Pick 126) Originally seen as a depth pick with linear speed, Hubbard has outperformed expectations and emerged as the team's RB1 over the past couple of years. His 2023 breakout laid the foundation, but in 2024 he cemented his role as the lead back, showing much-improved vision, contact balance, and decisiveness in outside zone. He finished top-10 in missed tackles forced and yards after contact per attempt, all while holding his own in pass protection and producing on screens. Chuba doesn't have elite burst or wiggle, but he's carved out a spot as the leader and tone-setter in the run game. Not bad value for a Day 3 selection—positional value be damned. Tommy Tremble (Round 3, Pick 83) Tremble has been the kind of player every team needs but few talk about: dependable, physical, and quietly versatile. When he was drafted, he was already known for his blocking chops and has steadily improved as a receiver. He experienced his most complete season in 2024 with a 79.3% catch rate, 10.2 yards per reception, no drops, and a 108.9 passer rating when targeted. Not only that, he's been a consistent special teamer since coming into the league. He's a natural fit as a TE/FB hybrid in 12 and 13 personnel, consistently handling the dirty work in both run and pass situations. Brady Christensen (Round 3, Pick 70) BC has played all over the line both as a starter and as a back-up. We haven't seen the "short arms" come up as often as Rhule was worried about, especially against ATL and WAS where he logged over 100 snaps at center and posted his best grades of the year (76.0 OVR, 73.8 PBL, 75.8 RBLK vs. ATL; 85.2 OVR, 72.9 PBLK, 86.0 RBLK vs. WAS). While his overall pass-blocking grade (56.1) and lack of a consistent position might mean that he's the perfect OL6 rather than a long-term starter, he's been dependable when given his opportunities.

I need Trevin Wallace retelling the Takeo Spikes story about Weapon X

Do we just get to have the player without any salary cap implications? Do they have to be a current player? Give me Brian Dawkins and just let him bless people.