tukafan21

So you're saying you'll base your opinion of his NFL prospects on his timings at the combine more than the 3 years of tape on him? I honestly couldn't care less about what he does at the combine, and I say that for EVERY player at EVERY position. The combine is the most antiquated and useless tool for evaluating prospects these days. More players blow up at the combine because they're physical freaks, but end up busting because it doesn't translate to the field. Hell, how many players have we taken over the years because of their RAS score from the combine, only for them to end up as just awful actual football players? To me, the combine is good for two things and only two things. Directly comparing QB pure arm talent since it's the only time everything is equal for them. Where they're throwing the same passes, to the same WR's they don't know, and doing it right after each other so it makes it easy to compare their arm ability. And EVERYTHING that happens off the field that us fans don't even get to see, as all the interviews teams have with players can really tell them a lot about who they are as people, and what their mental knowledge of the game is as the teams go through mock film sessions with the players. And I'm not even going to get into the Hunter thing, as most analysts don't rate him over T-Mac if purely going on him as a WR and disregarding him as a defensive player. Plus, he's going to end up as a DB in the end anyways, it's his better side of the ball and he is very slender, I don't think he'll last long at the next level as a WR, he's already taken enough hits to be a 3 year NFL vet, before he even shows up to the draft.

You literally haven't said one thing yet to explain your views on Evans being a better prospect. T-Mac had better stats and has less negatives in his draft profiles when comparing the two, but you still keep saying that. If anything, they both had the same speed/separation question marks, but T-Mac is universally lauded for having unreal hands while that was a question mark for Evans coming out. So, please explain then what makes T-Mac a lesser prospect than Evans and you can't say a single thing about Evans long term health to allow him to compile a HOF resume in the NFL as that's a ludicrous argument to use when comparing them as prospects, like you keep claiming Evans was the better prospect.

You know what... just did a little more research and just saw this breakdown of T-Mac's weaknesses, just thought it was fair to put both sides out there........ Monotone mover with pedestrian speed -- cannot separate vertically or pull away from the pack. Unsudden acceleration. Stiff hips. Will have to make a living in traffic at the next level -- will struggle to separate vs. quick-twitch NFL cornerbacks. Did not run a full route tree and could require patience learning the nuances of refined route running. Backyard element to his college success -- must become savvier instead of depending on superior size and improvisational production. Can be hotheaded and lose control of his emotions. Basketball was first love. Oh... shoot, you know what, I made a mistake, I accidentally copied and pasted another one of Evan's draft profiles coming out of school, my bad.

Yep, I've never hid the fact that I went to Arizona and love him because of that. But that doesn't alter my views on him as a player, I've watched every snap of his career, I know his game better than any other person on this site. Not to mention, not a single person here can say I am just a homer, look at the negative things I've said about the Panthers this year. Hell.... look back at the threads talking about T-Mac and I'm constantly criticizing Arizona's football team this year as well. I call it like I see it, and if I go a little over the top on defending T-Mac, it's because too many people on here come out with drastically insane takes that are clearly born out of looking at his height and/or a 2 minute highlight video that generally shows his crazy contested catches (because they genuinely are crazy and belong on his highlight reel), and not having actually watched enough of his real tape, not just the highlights.

Good lord, T-Mac not having the separation ability of these quick twitch 6' WRs doesn't mean he has separation issues. I also can't for the life of me understand why people are so focused on the 40 yard dash in today's day and age, it literally means absolutely nothing, it's a straight line run, with no defenders, no pads, and is significantly dependent on the player's ability to fire out of a track stance, something no player ever starts a play from and something the taller players tend to struggle with just due to physics. So, if T-Mac comes out and runs a 5.52, combined with his better college stats than Evans had, does that somehow completely change your opinion on him because he's now "faster" than Evans was coming out of school? For what it's worth, I just went and looked up a Walter Football's draft profile for Evans, and here were his negatives.... Quicker than fast Doesn't always get separation Drops some passes Could stand to improve his hands So, basically the same negatives people on here feel about T-Mac in regards to being quicker than fast and separation "issues" which again, I don't use that as a fault on these type of players as they bring other positives that the smaller players who excel in that area just can't provide. Except the difference is nobody out there has ever said T-Mac has to improve his hands, it's literally the opposite, his hands are lauded as next level. Now let's go look at T-Mac's negatives from the same website's draft profile...... Lacks elite speed That's it, literally that's their only listed negative for him (I'm not saying he doesn't have others, in fact I've noted others, but this is the same site and they don't seem to have the same concerns you have). I feel like you're knighting Evans based on his HOF statistical career and retroactively saying that meant he was a better prospect coming out of college than T-Mac, with no actual facts, data, or game tape to back up that claim.

Exactly I don't know why it's so hard to understand that Evans had an elite career, a HOF career, but he was never truly an elite player at any given time during his career. He had a couple years where he was right there on the boarder of great to elite, but even then, I can't not fall back on, two 2nd team all pro's and never been a 1st. This isn't the pro bowl voting where it's a joke, even if you disagree with who was left off an all pro team, it's hard to argue removing those who beat them out. If those voters never saw him as a Top 3 WR in any season and only twice saw him as a Top 6 WR, how are you going to say he was ever a real elite player?

Appreciate it And yea, I get people laugh at my long winded posts, but it's like you said, I lay out my full argument in them with details as to why. It's not my fault most people on a message board like to just say we should draft/sign/trade for X player and if you don't agree, you're dumb and I'm not going to explain why I think that way.

In a WR re-draft Wilson isn't getting drafted over any of these guys... Jefferson, Chase, Amon-Ra, AJ Brown, Puka, CeeDee, Nabers, Thomas Jr, McLaurin, McConkey, Harrison Jr Then there would be a legitimate debate between Wilson and all of these guys where some would go before him and some after, based on personal preference... London, Aiyuk, JSN, Flowers, Devonta Smith, Olave, Moore, Pittman, Collins, Waddle, Dell, Pickens, Odunze And that's not even considering guys who may be better players than Wilson still, but just wouldn't be drafted over him in a WR re-draft because of age/injury concerns like.... Tyreek, Diggs, Evans, Godwin, Adams, Ridley, Kupp Again, I have nothing against Wilson, I'd love to have him on our team, but in no world can you trade the #8 pick for him and give him a big extension when if the alternative would be taking T-Mac and having the player with the higher ceiling on a rookie contract.

I have nothing against Mike Evans, it's that he keeps saying it's ridiculous for me to think T-Mac will be a better player than Evans, based on Evans totality of his career statistical output. They're not the same thing, at all. Basically what he's arguing is that it would be insane for someone to say any RB coming into the league is going to be better than Frank Gore. There are going to be LOTS of RBs over the years who are better than Gore but will never make the HOF. Or how about comparing a QB to Rivers or Eli? There are going to be a lot of QBs that you'd predict will be better, and for a period of time will be, but they won't be able to do it long enough to have the same career as those guys. Longevity of great play does not equal an elite player, it equals an elite career. If you're building a team for one season, health aside and looking at peak performance, there are way too many WRs over the last decade that I'd take over Evans to consider him a true elite WR in my mind. For example, I looked it up, here is where he has finished every season ranked in Receptions and Yards 2014 - 36th in Rec and 19th in Yds 2015 - 30 and 11 2016 - 6 and 4 2017 - 23 and 15 2018 - 17 and 3 2019 - 36 and 13 2020 - 32 and 18 2021 - 28 and 22 2022 - 25 and 13 2023 - 24 and 9 2024 - 28 and 23 He's played 11 seasons, only twice finished higher than 23rd in receptions and 3 times in the Top 10 in yards, 5 of the 11 outside the Top 15. Outside of 2016 and 2018, he really wasn't ever an elite WR outside of being an elite red zone threat. Evans was a great WR who had an elite career, not an elite WR

Then in regards to your continued refusal to separate Evans' career numbers, which are more due to long term health than sustained elite play, from who he was as an actual player at any given moment.... As I said the other night, I'll give you Evans' elite TD production, but also as I said, that's where T-Mac would be most likely to replicate Evan's NFL game, considering how great of a redzone weapon he's going to be. Even if he doesn't become a huge yardage guy, he's going to score a poo ton of TD's with his size and hands. But you really need to stop talking about Evans' 12,000 career yards as some proof of him being an actual elite WR on the field of play and not when looking at an overall career statistical output. Evans' 3rd best yardage season out of 11 seasons was 1,255 in 17 games. His 3rd best reception season was 79 catches, he's never had a single 100 catch season (his best was 96). He was never a 1st team All Pro and was only a 2nd team AP twice, which means 9 of his 11 seasons, voters didn't ever have him as a Top 3 WR and was only even Top 6 twice. It's not a knock on Evans, he's a HOFer, but he will get into Canton because of his long term sustained great play, not because he was ever a true elite WR for more than maybe 1 or 2 season's of his entire career. Mike Evans is the Frank Gore of WRs As I said the other night, saying X player will be better than Y player, isn't saying X player will have a better career than Y player. The only thing you can predict with long term health and availability is in the negative, you can predict someone will struggle with it if they already have (which T-Mac hasn't). But trying to predict who will be able to play for 10+ years without ever getting hurt vs someone who is going to be truly elite for half the time but not the other due to injury, is a literal crap shoot that isn't predictable. Hence me saying T-Mac will be better than Evans is me saying in a vacuum he'll be a better player, but if he'll have a better career it will come down to how long he's able to sustain being a better player than Evans, which is unpredictable for any player at any position in any league. If you view Evans as being a legit true elite WR outside of maybe 2 seasons, then that's the hangup, and really, it's on you, because again, 2nd team all pro twice, never first, hard to argue against that even before you dig into the numbers themselves, which don't support your argument either. 5 of Evans' 11 seasons have been between 1,001 and 1,051 yards. If each of those 5 seasons ends up at 999 or less yards, there is a very different narrative on Evans, in that he was a true elite red zone weapon, but only a pretty good WR outside of that. The 11 years of 1k narrative is HUGE to what his legacy is, it's undeniable.

Just in terms of comparing them as prospects.... I'm not going to try and pretend I remember Evans' draft profile from a dozen years ago, so just looking at stats after you remove T-Mac's Freshman year, where he still had 700 yards and 8 TDs (and only because Evans redshirted and then only played 2 years in college). Evans - 151 catches for 2,499 yards, and 17 TDs T-Mac - 174 catches for 2,721 yards and 18 TDs So I'm not sure how you can say definitively Evans was a better prospect than T-Mac is, especially when Evans wasn't a speedster anyways (ran a 4.53), which is really the only knock people have on T-Mac, and then T-Mac had better stats across the board.

Throw every current WR in the league into a new draft of only WRs and I honestly don't think Wilson is getting taken in the Top 15, certainly not in the Top 10. If you want to argue that Wilson's floor is higher than T-Mac's because he's already proven to be a 1k yard WR in the league, I'll accept that on the basis of proven vs potential alone. But T-Mac's ceiling is 100% higher than Wilson's and it's not even close.

So, two issues with that, the first is that the 50/50 ball (in general) is probably not T-Mac's best asset (although it is his 3rd). And I say that "in general" because the deep ball is his best asset, which yes, part of which is the 50/50 aspect of the type of deep ball he specializes in. The bigger issue is this... who the F*** on our team the last 2 years is a player Bryce would ever trust to throw a 50/50 ball to?!?! That's not Thielen's game and it sure as hell isn't a pass Bryce is going to throw to XL, Coker, Johnson, or Chark. T-Mac has 2 things that could be argued as his best assets. His best being the deep ball and the other being his catch radius (with a close 3rd on contested catch ability). There are two types of deep ball specialists in today's game, the Tyreek type who can run past the defense and the QB throws it as far as possible for them to run under, and the Mike Evans type where the QB chucks it and it's up to the WR to out jump and high point the ball over the defender. T-Mac is the latter and Bryce doesn't have the arm to properly use the former. Hence why T-Mac's best ability, those deep jump balls, are PERFECT for Bryce, who can throw it 50-60 yards in a heave, but can't just out throw the defense for a speedster to run under it. His catch radius is also a PERFECT fit for Bryce, again, because he doesn't have a rifle for an arm, but he's great at placing the ball where he wants with touch (it's actually probably Bryce's best asset). Bryce throwing those high and outside throws towards the sideline paired with T-Mac's size, catch radius, and hands would be a lethal combination, particularly on 3rd down and in the Red Zone.

What's embarrassing is that you can't separate Evans' totality of his career statistics with any individual season(s). Evans is a HOFer because of his consistently great play, but he has maybe 2 actual elite seasons in his career. Also that you can't seem to separate using one aspect of a particular player's game and saying someone is the best prospect at doing that since then, despite not even claiming that he's better than Calvin at said aspect of his game. You hate when I say that about T-Mac having the best catch radius as a prospect since Calvin... so tell me this... what WR prospects have had a better catch radius than T-Mac since Calvin? You hate that I use Calvin's name, even though I've never once compared T-Mac to him on the whole and am likely correct that since Calvin came into the league, if only looking at catch radius (the only thing I've ever compared T-Mac and Calvin with), T-Mac would be the best since then.

Explain this part. Because I don't think you logically can, as I've pointed out numerous times, what T-Mac does best is actually a PERFECT pairing for Bryce. You go first as I'm very curious what you're going to say, I'll then counter.

My thoughts on T-Mac are completely irrelevant to the point I'm making at the moment. Yes, I think T-Mac will be a better prospect, some may not agree, but that's a different discussion. Right now it's pointing out that people here are WAY over valuing what Wilson is as a player and what his future potential is. He's very good, he's a #1 WR, but I don't think he ever has Top 10 potential in him. I'd be okay with trading the 8th pick for Wilson if T-Mac is off the board by then. But even saying that, as much as I'm anti taking a raw prospect edge rusher at 8, I'd rather do that than trade that pick for Wilson and then give him an extension. 3 years in the league, hasn't missed a game, but the 2nd most yards he has in a game in his career is 115 yards. In what world is that a Top 10 WR?!?!?!?!

How am I glossing over that? I'm not saying he's a bad player, I'm saying there are others better than him and he's not a Top 10 WR in this league now or even in the next handful of years. Look at the QB situation just this past year for rookies in Nabers and Thomas, neither was good and you could argue Nabers' was worse than Wilson's. If you want to just compare rookie seasons, I'd say even with a better QB, McConkey had a more impressive rookie season given it was a run first offense and he had better statistics despite missing a game. Thielen had 1,014 yards last year with maybe the worst QB play for any team in the league over the last decade. 1k yards doesn't mean the same thing that it used to with the 17 game schedule and pass happy offenses in today's game. And again, that glosses over my big issue with him, he's not a game breaker in the mold of a Jefferson, Chase, Nabers and he doesn't have the size to be a red zone monster either. So his upside is capped because of both of those things. He's very good, he's a #1 WR, no doubt about that. But he's not a Top 10 WR and I don't think he even has that potential in him when you look at the rest of the young WRs in the league right now, too many of them bring things to the game that he just hasn't shown the ability to do yet.

laugh at how long my posts are, but when people say "so and so player is going to be a Top X player" with such certainty and zero analysis to back it up, I'm going to take the time to do said analysis to show how incorrect they are. It's easy to have different opinions on prospects, it's easy to do it on current players too. But when people talk about a specific already in the league player as being this stud elite WR, and 5 minutes of research can show a dozen guys of similar age who have already been better than him and still have their prime years ahead of them and another handful (or two) with almost identical output so far, yea I'm going to lay that all out there, even if it's a lot of information to read through. Talk about Wilson being a #1, that's fair, but to talk about him as some legit elite Top 10 WR in this league is literal nonsense when you look at his output so far compared to other WRs.

So you're openly admitting that after 3 years in the league, Wilson still isn't "great" but at the same time think he's going to be a Top 8 WR in the league when he's averaged 65 yards per game in his career? There is more proof that Wilson will turn out to be very good than great, than the opposite. The truly great WRs into today's game have all had better seasons in their first few years than Wilson has had, some of them have had multiple better seasons. Chase had 1 less TD in his rookie season than Wilson has in his career. Jefferson's worst season was 30 yards less than Wilson's best, despite playing 7 fewer games. Nabers and Thomas just had more yards in their rookie seasons than Wilson has ever had (and Nabers only played 15 games). Amon-Ra's last 3 seasons are all more yards than Wilson has ever had, as well as having only 2 less TDs this year than Wilson has in his career, while basically the same thing can be said about CeeDee (except using his TDs from last year). In his first 2 years in Philly AJ Brown put up 2,951 yards and 18 TDs, almost as many yards as Wilson has in 3 years and with more TDs. Drake London, with busted Cousins and a rookie throwing him the ball, just had a better statistical season than Wilson has ever had. In a run oriented offense, even McConkey just put up more yards than Wilson has ever had in a season (while missing a game), and had 7 TDs, the most Wilson has ever had in a year and took him until year 3 to do so. Puka had 1,500 yards and 6 TDs as a rookie and then followed it up with 990 and 3 TDs in just 11 games. Nico Collins has back to back years with as many or more TDs as Wilson has had in any one season (and more in those 2 years than Wilson has in 3), while putting up 1,300 and 1,000 yards despite missing 2 and 5 games in each of those two seasons. All of this isn't meant to attack Wilson, he's a very good WR, he's a #1. But that's 11 WRs all 27 years old or younger who have had better production than Wilson so far, some by a wide margin. It's also not even including other guys who have had more similar production to Wilson that very well could be better than him moving forward, like McLaurin, Aiyuk, JSN, Flowers, Jameson Williams, Moore, Olave, DeVonta. Let alone all the great older WRs who had much more production early in their career than Wilson did, like the Tyreek, Adams, Diggs, etc, of the game. People thinking he's this can't miss Top 10 WR are just talking nonsense. His size limits his red zone potential and he's just not the same type of smaller WR who can dominate like a Chase, Jefferson, Nabers, etc. I know people can say my view of T-Mac being a surefire Top 10 guy with Top 5 potential is nonsense as well. But I'm still betting on the 6'5" guy with the best hands and catch radius of any WR to come into the league since Calvin Johnson to have a much higher ceiling than Wilson has, and that's before considering he'd be 3 years younger and on a rookie contract.

Or, you take a player with a much higher ceiling than Wilson, while having them on a rookie contract control for 5 years. Again, I'm not against trading the 8th pick for Wilson, but under no circumstances can that trade be made before knowing if T-Mac is there when on the clock. If he gets drafted before 7 when the Jets are on the clock, then sure, go ahead and make the trade. But if he's there at 7 and they haven't traded Wilson, they're not taking T-Mac, so just sit pat and take the player with the higher upside and longer rookie contract control.

No it's not, Wilson is a great WR, but he's not a true Top 5 potential type of elite WR like some on here seem to think. Yes, he has over 1k in each of his 3 seasons, but he also hasn't missed any games and has only just barely cracked the number in each season, the most yards he's had is 1,104, which is only a 65 yard per game average. He has a total of 9 games of 100 yards or more, out of 51 games, with only 1 of those games being over 115 yards. He's also not really that much of a redzone threat because of his size, and he only has 14 TDs over his 3 seasons. In his 3 seasons he's been 13th, 14th, and 22nd in the league in receiving yards, and again, that's without missing any games, he falls further down the list if you go by yards per game. Great WR, a #1 WR, no doubt about it, but he's more of a 12-15ish best WR in the league than a true Top 10 guy. Just T-Mac's red zone ability alone will make him a better WR weapon to have in this league than Wilson, as he's going to be a 10 or more TD type of guy per season. If the team who has had him in their building for 3 years would trade him and then take T-Mac (assuming he's still there), wouldn't that alone tell you that the Jets think higher of T-Mac than Wilson?

Wrong He might be better than T-Mac as of Week 1 of this year as it's a 4th year #1 WR vs a rookie, but within a year or so, T-Mac >> Wilson, no doubt in my mind about that. There is only 1 instance I'd be okay trading #8 for Wilson, and that's if T-Mac is drafted before we're on the clock. As if we make that trade and T-Mac falls to 8 (or 7 since the Jets would have both those picks), the Jets would take him and in a couple years we'll just look back on that in anger as they'll have the better WR than we will, and they'll have had him on his rookie deal while we'll have given Wilson a huge extension.

lol, didn't remember that Biakabutuka was the 8th pick for us (for some reason if you asked me before, I always thought he wast eh 6th pick in the draft). Would be perfect symmetry for me for us to have drafted my favorite player from my favorite school growing up in Biakabutuka, to now draft the best player from the school I graduated from with T-Mac all these years later.

I like Sanders potential too much to use an 8th pick on a TE with all our other holes. Nothing against the player, just that we have a TE with possibly a really good upside, would be a poor allocation of resources.