tukafan21

Hunter had no business winning this award, he was a great player on both sides of the ball, but he wasn't near the best at either position. In the end, what I go back to, is that Colorado had the Heisman winner on both sides of the ball and a Top 10 Heisman finisher at QB, and they couldn't even make the expanded playoffs. If those two players were actually as good as things like this (and other awards) voting seemed to say, then they 100% should have been in the playoffs. Hunter won this award because he was supposed to be so amazing on both sides of the ball. How can you make that argument while ignoring that it wasn't enough to help them get into the playoffs? If he was THAT good, he should have been able to drag his team there the way someone like Jeanty did. If he was the best CB or WR and then really good at the other, then maybe, but he wasn't. The fact that he won the best WR award is an absolute joke. I've always said stats don't matter when you're projecting a player for the NFL, but they do matter when voting on collegiate awards based on their play during the season. He won a popularity contest, not a "who was the actual best player" contest.

There is a better chance we're in the 5th slot at the end of the day than the 3rd Patriots are down 10-0 already, once they lose, we fall to 4th. We're also now currently tied with the Jags on SOS. I'm not about to do the research to figure out who has to win/lose the rest of the day (and tomorrow) to change each team's SOS, but I'm sure there are scenarios where our SOS becomes tougher than the Jags before this weekend is over and we then fall to 5th at the moment.

So first of all, we didn't actually move up to 3rd in the draft, the Patriots just haven't played yet. And second, I will stand by this until the end of time... Hunter will be a bust in this league because his ego will end up getting the best of him. It has nothing to do with his talent, but Hunter and Shedeur are tied with the biggest red flags of any 1st rounder since Manziel. He's going to be drafted by a team as a CB and told he'll get 5 or so offensive snaps a game. The team will struggle on offense, he will piss and moan about not being used both ways, it's going to cause problems. He doesn't have a head coach, he has a pseudo father figure slash big brother who lets him do whatever he wants whenever he wants. If people can't see he's being set up for a rude awakening in the NFL where he isn't given preferred treatment, then I can't help you. I've said it before and it's not a joke, he's not on my draft board, period. And it has nothing to do with his football ability, at all. I still go back to Deion thinking Hunter stealing shoes from him from his office was funny and Deion posting the video of it on social media himself. What other player at any level of any sport can do that and their coach find it funny? There are more things than just that one video, but it's a perfect microcosm of what I've been talking about with him. Deion was great for Shedeur's and Hunter's college careers, but I think he did a big disservice to both of them for getting them ready for life in the NFL, and I've said this for 2 years now.

Overdrafting a non elite QB prospect just because they're better than the awful QB you already have is exactly how bad teams continue to suck. People are far too focused on figuring out the QB situation to realize just how bad this roster is and inserting the wrong QB prospect into said roster isn't going to fix those problems. We're still in year 0 of a re-build at the moment, stop trying to force a square peg into a round hole. This is not the draft to reach for a QB, you build up the roster for a season, take your lumps, and then take one in what is supposed to be a QB loaded draft next year.

Taking the 3rd QB in a weak QB class because you "have the opportunity to do so" is exactly how bad teams continue to suck

Was just weird post to compare my love of the best player in school history, from the school I graduated from, to your love of a random team/player that you have zero connection to. No poo I'm going to love him more than you love Colorado/Hunter/Sanders lol If we don't draft him, T-Mac is going to be the only player who has a chance to take over my "favorite non Panther in NFL history" from Gronk. But even then, it's going to be real hard if not impossible for him to do that, seeing as Gronk not only turned out to be the best TE of all time, his 2 years in college (injured his whole 3rd season and didn't play) were my last 2 years in school, so I got to watch him in person in college too. Gronk is also the only other Arizona football (or basketball) player that I've ever talked about being so sure they'll be a superstar in the pros like I have with T-Mac. That's how sure I am of him being a star, it's one of those things that's hard to exactly put into words, but watching them, they just look and feel different. I was telling my friends Gronk was the next big TE after literally his first college game as a Freshman when he carried 3 players hanging on his back almost 10 yards. You could just see it right away, there was something different about him, and I see it in T-Mac as well.

I'll actually defend Hunter here and say he is a better pairing with Horn than Johnson would be. Johnson is a bigger more physical corner while Hunter is smaller and faster. We have the big physical corner in Horn, and most teams don't have two big imposing WRs you need to be physical with, so pairing him with a speedster who would better align with what we already have. Not that I wouldn't want Johnson if we can't get T-Mac in the end, but just saying I think it would be duplicating a little bit of what we already have.

Tell me one point I'm wrong about in all of that? And yea, if you love Colorado, a school/players you have zero connection to, more than I love maybe the best player in school history, from the school I graduated from, then it would be a really bad sign for you, not me, lol The fact that my NFL team could be in a position to draft that player and is at a position of need for them as well, yea... I'm going to defend him at any and every opportunity. It's not often the best player in your school's history might get drafted by your favorite NFL team.

I mean, I'm fine when people want to have differing opinions about a player and their potential. But when your arguments against one player are just nonsense that don't align with who they are, then yea, I'm going to call it out. It's so comical for someone to literally say, "you need to look beyond the stats" and then talk the player down because of his... checks notes... "lack of stats outside of one big game" despite that also, just factually being incorrect for a number of reasons. The guy has 174 rec, 2,700 yds and 18 TDs over the last two seasons, but sure, his stats are inflated because of one or two big games, LOL (and that's ignoring his 700 yards and 8 TDs as a Freshman too). Then to talk about him as a possession WR who lacks speed or agility, again, comical. Most "expert breakdowns" of his game specifically talk about how someone his size shouldn't be able to move like he does. No... he's not going to move like Jefferson, Chase, Nabers, etc... because he's not 6' tall and a speedster type of player like those guys are. But those guys also don't have the catch radius that T-Mac has, given that he is 5" taller and a better leaper than those guys as well. It would be like Bucs fans complaining that Evans can't do the things they do while ignoring the things that Evans does that they can't. It's all a trade off, you might not get certain things out of T-Mac that those others would provide, but you're going to get things from him that they just can't do because of the size difference. Hell, I have less of an issue with people saying they don't see him as a #1 WR (even though he is), because everyone is entitled to their opinion of what they see. But when you start to spout off things that prove you clearly haven't watched near enough of his tape (if any at all), then yea, I'm going to call it out for the nonsense that it is.

So... your argument is to not look at stats... and then talk about his stats? First things first, his stats aren't propped up by one game. Remove that one 300 yard game from his stats and he still had just over 1,000 yards on the season while still being 20th in the nation in yards, and of course then while playing one less game. Hell, if he even "only" had 165 yards in his big game instead of 300, he still would have finished 3rd in the nation in yards without those extra 135 yards. Remove Hunter's biggest game from his season and he drops just below 1,000 yards. So to say T-Mac's stats are artificially inflated because of one big game is just inherently flawed from the start. You also say his stats are against a weak schedule, but how about looking at last year when Arizona played 7 ranked teams and he had 1,400 yards and 10 TDs (including 688 and 5 in the games against the ranked teams). He also did that last year while we had another WR who had 90 rec, 850 yds, and 13 TDs on that team. Which again points back to what I've been saying all year for people who clearly haven't watched enough of his film from both this and last season. This team was a MESS, from every standpoint, the fact that he even put up the stats he did this year was ridiculous. That mess was compounded by having no other offensive threats for the defense to pay any attention to and allowed them to double/triple cover T-Mac constantly. Just your point of him being a redzone asset but not getting a lot of TDs shows how little you watched of him/Arizona this year, as we just weren't in the red zone all that often because we were a terrible team. It also shows you don't know him best because again, as good as he is in the red zone (and yes he is great), what he's best at is as a downfield big play threat. Even beyond that, half the time when we were in the red zone, the defense wouldn't even hide it and just line up 2 DB's in front of him so they couldn't throw to him if they wanted to. When they did put single coverage on him, it was usually a TD (see the UCF TD he had against someone I believe is a decently rated CB prospect, the guy got a PI flag and T-Mac still tipped the ball to himself and caught it for a TD). That you don't think he moves like those other guys you listed is also comical. He's more smooth, fluid, agile, etc, than Mike Evans (Evans is bigger/stronger than him, but T-Mac is more of an athlete than him). Even Colston and Sutton, he's faster than those guys as well. All 3 of them ran the 40 at the combine OVER 4.5 seconds, when T-Mac runs it sub 4.5 (as he will), are people still going to keep saying this nonsense that he isn't fast enough for them? When people say this kinda stuff about him not moving well, it's just a clear cut sign that they haven't watched him play enough. He's regularly used in the screen and short crossing route game just to get the ball in his hands and let him get YAC. He was 5th in the Big 12 in YAC this year, not bad for a possession WR who doesn't have enough speed or agility to his game like people here love to say about him.

And this is all exactly why Hunter isn't even on my draft board. I don't think he's going to be happy when a team won't let him play full time both sides of the ball. And when that team plays him on defense and the offense is struggling, he's going to be even more of a diva because he's going to be upset that he's not getting offensive snaps. Just avoid.

Don't get me wrong, he's great at the 10 yard crossing routes to pick up a first down, his big body and hands allow him to excel doing that. But the thing he does best is make big plays downfield because of his ability to make contested catches, he's a guy that you can throw to even when he's covered and have a decent chance of him coming down with the ball over the defenders. Thielen is a possession WR, T-Mac is nothing like him. The popular comps are Evans, London, Higgins because they are all current players, but to me, he's always reminded me of AJ Green, who again, is no possession WR

To my point about the numbers T-Mac would have put up if he was there instead of Hunter T-Mac had 84 rec, 1,319 yds, 8 TDs Hunter had 92 rec, 1,152 yds, 14 TDs Shedeur had 1,000 more yards and 17 more TDs than T-Mac's QB... on only 24 more attempts on the entire season. The 2nd highest receiving yardage by any Arizona player was a WR with 323 yards, after that it was a RB with 245 and a TE with 217... nobody else had over 196. Colorado had WRs with 880, 617, 617, 434, 277, and 216 Arizona had 10 receiving TDs other than T-Mac... Colorado had 21 other than Hunter T-Mac also only had 5% more of Arizona's catches than Hunter had, so it's not like you can say T-Mac's numbers are because of volume. They spread the ball around plenty, but there was nobody else who could make plays or even scare the defense into not sending extra guys T-Mac's way. Put him in that offense with a better QB, scheme, and other WRs to make sure he can't be double or tripled on every single snap, the numbers he'd have put up would have been absolutely crazy and people would be talking about him as the second coming.

Yep, and as I just said in my previous post, I didn't expect him to win it, his stats have been depressed all year because of the team. Put T-Mac in that Colorado offense this year though and he's putting up bigger numbers than Hunter did. He had more yards and yards per catch than him on a worse team with nobody else to take coverage from him and a worse QB, he's have crushed it in Colorado.

I honestly didn't think T-Mac was going to win the award anyways, but it being Hunter is absolutely shocking to me and makes literally zero sense. Nash won the triple crown, he lead the nation in catches, yards, and TDs (as well as having more yards per reception than Hunter too). I'm not collegiate historian, but I have a feeling it's very rare for any player to win the triple crown in college, just far too many players out there putting up video game numbers at this level for someone to be tops in all 3. I said all year how T-Mac's stats were being held back by his QB play, play calling, and overall state of the team. That he still was 3rd in the nation in yards was ridiculous if you watched every Arizona game this year and saw how much of a mess we were (especially compared to last year).

Exactly I'd love to draft a Center in say the 3rd round, which is where you can find rookie starting Centers a lot of times. But if we go T-Mac in the 1st like I hope, even if we spend all our cap room on defense, it's only going to fill so many holes and I think using both our 2nd and 3rd rounders on defense there would make more sense than using one on a Center at the moment. If the right one falls to the 4th, I'm not against that either, but not sure if we're going to get a rookie starter at that point, and if we're not, I'd rather use that on a fast twitch slot WR or go for a DB or ILB at that point in the draft (after hopefully using the 2nd and 3rd to get pass rushers and/or another DT who is good against the run). Also wouldn't be against packaging up multiple 4-6 round picks if it can get us another 3rd rounder if we see a Center there that we like. We might not have any 6ths right now, but with a 4th, three 5ths, and three 7ths, we probably have the ammo to get another 3rd if there is someone we want.

uh, where to begin XL will never be the player T-Mac will be, so not taking him because we have XL and would need contracts around the same time would be an asinine reason to not draft a player of T-Mac's potential You talk about how rookies need time to develop, well rookies on the defensive side of the ball usually take longer to develop than elite WR prospects, so going back to your other post about drafting defense and spending the cap on a WR, it's just backwards for who will be more ready to contribute from day one. And no, paying Higgins doesn't help Bryce more, as T-Mac is already equally as good as him, if not already better. And Higgins doesn't have T-Mac's hands, in fact, not many current NFL WR's do, he has vice grips covered in glue for hands. But more importantly, to your point about Higgins doing everything T-Mac can do but faster... uh, Higgins ran a 4.59, he's not a speedster, I would bet my bottom dollar that T-Mac runs a sub 4.5 40 at the combine. You seem to think he's just a contested catch guy, but he's not, he is regularly used in the screen and short crossing route game because he is actually really good after the catch. I again go back to, if these are your opinions of T-Mac, it means you haven't watched enough of him. Even if you want defense over WR, that's a much more fair argument, but your comparison of him to Higgins and thinking paying Higgins 30 million a year instead of drafting T-Mac is smarter, just makes no sense (and that's before even factoring in Higgins injury history).

LOL if you think he'd rank behind anyone you named after Odunze, and I think he's going to end up with draft grades in the exact same range as him and Nabers. Just the fact that you think those other WRs would rank ahead of him is proof that you haven't watched enough of him to know him as a player, that's just comical. Then that you don't think he'd be a #1 on the Panthers is also one of the dumbest things I've ever read on here, he's already better than any WR on our roster. And if Higgins were to sign here, we would have to make him a Top 5 paid WR in the league. Paying someone that kind of money who isn't worth the contract instead of spending it on vet defenders who can be impact starters from week 1 next year is exactly how you keep screwing up a franchise. T-Mac is equally as good as Higgins right now, within a year or two of NFL experience it won't even be a debate anymore. Spending the money he'd need to sign with us instead of drafting T-Mac and spending that money on defensive free agents would be a fireable offense for Morgan. It can be a "down WR year" in comparison to last year given how many went in the 1st round, but that doesn't mean the players at the top of the draft wouldn't have been drafted highly last year (again, assuming this year's version of them, it's not fair to judge a Sophomore T-Mac last year against them as he's being drafted now). Burden will go in the 12-15 range this year, he probably would have fallen back into the late 20's last year, but T-Mac and Hunter wouldn't, they might not be Top 5 because of those QB's and Harrison last year, but they'd have been Top 10 graded guys like Nabers and Odunze (who went over who would all come down to team preference I think, but all about the same grades).

For starters, there isn't going to be any #1 WR available in Free Agency. Higgins will be the best option and he's going to want way more than we should be paying for a non true elite #1 Wr right now anyways. And second, saying he wouldn't be Top 5 last year is a bit disingenuous. QB's went 1-3 and then no WR was going to be drafted before Harrison with the hype around him (not to mention that neither of the 2 QBs who will go in the Top 5 this year would have been drafted ahead of last year's 6 QB's that went in the 1st). So really there was only 1 possible draft slot for him to go in the Top 5 last year from that standpoint. Even beyond that, no, a Sophomore T-Mac of last year wouldn't have gone ahead of Nabers or Odunze. But this year's T-Mac after another big season and year of getting better 100% would have been in the mix for the 2nd WR to be drafted if in the same class as those guys. If T-Mac played for Ohio State, LSU, Alabama, Georgia, etc, he would be viewed very differently by normal fans. The fact that he played for a bad Arizona team that couldn't make a bowl game makes it hard for a lot of people to understand just how good he is and the bonkers numbers he'd put up if he had an elite QB and team around him. He was the only option on a bad team, worse coaching staff, and nobody else to draw coverage and he still finished 3rd in the nation in yards and had more regular season yards than he did last year (came up 83 yards short of last year, but he also had 160 yards in the bowl game last year). I've said it before, by the time T-Mac needs his 2nd contract, he's going to be universally viewed as a Top 10 WR with many people ranking him in their personal Top 5

T-Mac wouldn't be a developmental rookie, this isn't drafting a raw WR in the late first or early 2nd who needs to work on a lot of things before they can make an impact, but any edge rusher we might draft in the 1st round would be. This isn't a good free agent WR class, there's Higgins and then a big drop off, and even then, Higgins isn't a true elite #1, more of an elite #2 or low end #1. It's much easier to find impact defensive players in free agency these days than on offense, teams make sure to lock up their offensive weapons before the defensive ones.

Maybe it's because Hunter and Colorado is almost all you ever talk about on here anymore, so almost any conversation you have with someone is about him/them. Also if you noticed, my initial post on this wasn't even responding to you, but someone else anyways, but don't let those little details get in the way of your agenda of me against Hunter/You

You can be a Hunter fanboy all you want, but there is no denying there is a lot of logic and sense to my argument for Jeanty winning the award. Take Hunter off Colorado and they're not going to be as good of a team, but they're still going to be solid. Take Jeanty off of Boise State and they're not sniffing the playoffs and are going to be closer to a .500 squad. Voting for Jeanty is not a knock on Hunter If Charles Woodson's Michigan team didn't win the NC and was more of like the 15th ranked team at the end of that season, odds are Peyton or Leaf wins that Heisman and not Woodson. No, Woodson didn't do on offense what Hunter did, but he was a better CB than Hunter

Unfortunately he's going to be right about Hunter winning the Heisman, even though it should be Jeanty. The main thing I can't get past in regards to Hunter winning the Heisman is that Colorado couldn't make get into the Playoffs. No, making the playoffs shouldn't be needed to win the Heisman of course, but in this particular instance, I have a hard way of not factoring it in. Hunter won't win the Heisman because he was the best offensive or defensive player in the nation, he'll win it because he's so good on both sides of the ball. But if he's THAT good and impacts both sides of the ball SO MUCH, shouldn't that have made Colorado a better team? Then add in that Shedeur was also a Heisman contender and will be one of the first 2 QB's to be drafted in the Top 5, and they still couldn't make it into the playoffs, in the first year they extended it out to 12 teams, and something doesn't exactly add up. I know a team is more than 2 players, but if you have 2 Heisman candidates, one who plays both sides of the ball, you really should be making the playoffs. When another player is going to end up with one of the most rushing yards in a season of all time, plus he single handedly carried his team to the playoffs, I just have a hard time not giving him that award. And no Cam.... this isn't an attack on Hunter, I'm clearly saying he's probably going to win the award and what he's doing is amazing, but I'd still have him #2 on my Heisman ballot to Jeanty. If there wasn't a player putting up the numbers he's putting up this year it wouldn't be a discussion, Hunter wins it going away. But when you combine the lack of team success with 2 Heisman candidates and a historically good season for a player who dragged his team into the playoffs, it factors in with my vote.

Yes, winning can breed winning, but 1 or 2 meaningless wins at the end of a lost season isn't going to do that. Winning 4 out of 5-6 games to close out a season is the type of thing you'd need to carry over into the offseason and into the next. I think it's MUCH easier to make an argument that our improved play and winning say 2 more games could significantly hurt our future than if we were to have been playing awful the last few weeks and the rest of the season. If Bryce hadn't shown this improvement the last few weeks, he would be gone in the offseason, traded to the highest bidder and we try to move on. But now that he's shown improvement, he's going to be the week 1 starter next year. If we win another game or two, it also could take us out of the T-Mac/Hunter/Johnson range of player that we'd be looking at in the Top 5 of the draft. What happens if Bryce then doesn't show any more improvement next year, or even worse, reverts back to his rookie season or early this season's play? We'd have lost that elite difference maker at the top of the draft and then wasted another season on Bryce before trying to move on from him in 2026, except without having T-Mac, or Hunter, or Johnson, and instead having more of a raw prospect from that 10-12 spot in the draft who may not become the superstar those other players could be. That's not a far fetched scenario, if anything it's probably more likely to happen than not, as personally, I still don't think Bryce has a snowball's chance in hell at becoming a franchise QB and we're going to be looking to replace him after next year anyways. If you're a true Bryce believer, maybe you look at it differently, but even if you are that true Bryce believer, wouldn't you then want to be in position to give him a true elite weapon in T-Mac? Would you really rather get 1 extra meaningless win this year if it meant not being able to get him that weapon next year? Is that one more win this year going to help Bryce succeed next year more than getting T-Mac would? In the end, I'm playing the odds. And the odds are that our franchise will be better off 5 years from now if we end up in the Top 5 of the draft than if we fall to that 10ish range of the draft.

So don't look at it as hoping your team will lose, look at it as hoping your team can add an elite difference maker in the draft, because that's what you're really hoping for and in reality, that's what you're rooting for. Would people have rather won an extra couple of games back in 2010 at the expense of being in position to draft Cam? Or how about the next year when we got Kuechly? If we won an extra game or two that previous year, we'd have likely missed out on him in that draft too. Again, we're not one or two players away from contending next year. We're not already sitting in that 10ish pick range where there might not be a big difference if we fall back a couple extra picks. If we were those things, then yes, you want the team to win to help them build upon next season. As I said earlier, it's like the Lions of 2 years ago, they were only a couple pieces away from having a really competitive team, they won a bunch of late games to build their momentum and turned that into an NFCCS appearance last year and are now the best team in the NFC. That's not us right now, we're more like the Lions of Campbell's first season where they ended up with the 2nd pick in the draft and took Hutchinson. Once you're sitting in that Top 5 of the draft and still have as many holes as we do, meaningless wins only hurt the franchise overall in the long term. Winning at this point is cutting off our nose to spite our face.