Taking plays off...who does and who doesn't?

[Urrymonster]

The point was Fiz, that all of those DEs and the other DEs that have been mentioned in this thread are not able to hit the level that everyone expects Peppers to achieve.

You can go an analyse every sentence that I type but you are a fool to disagree with plain facts.

Fact - Kerney could not impact games EITHER in pressure or sacks once teams gameplanned more heavily on him - which as Stan pointed out are exactly the same thing

Fact - Abraham is used as a pass rush specialist all the other Des in this thread are used as every down DEs.

Fact - Kampman DID NOT generate either as much pressure (which include sacks) as Peppers because he had to constantly fight double teams as the rest of his DL was useless. Peppers also faced double teams but produced more, Kampman may have seen more double teams but unless we go through every single game objectively then that is an impossible statistic to determine

The reason these are facts are because they show in the stats AND they are very evident from watching the games.

The reason why I mentioned them as elite DEs is simply because you used them as a comparison to a player that in my opinion I termed elite. There is also strong evidence that Tuck, Allen and even Osi when fit struggle at times, just as Peppers does.

[Fox007]

It is kind of amusing.

Would you rather have a player who only plays 60% of the time, but gets more stats than your guys that play 100% of the time?

Or

Would you rather have a guy that gives you 60% of the stats, but plays 100% of the time?

Peppers is probably the best bum to ever play the game.

[Fiz]

The point was Fiz, that all of those DEs and the other DEs that have been mentioned in this thread are not able to hit the level that everyone expects Peppers to achieve.

i don't know what everyone else in this thread thinks, or what they expect for Peppers to do. I expect him to put forth consistent effort, comparable to the other DEs I mentioned. He doesn't. Unfortunately there's not an easily referenced "effort" stat for you to look at.

You're stating very obvious things about other players, then using those tautologies as evidence of whatever your point is, which I honestly can't even decipher. I doubt you actually have one.

Peppers does not have what those other DEs have, he doesn't consistently try as hard, using stats in football is misleading, he's not worth the money, the team is better off without him if we have to commit that much money, this forum is awful right now, im not going to argue with someone who selectively addresses points then ignores what they can't argue against, blah blah blah peace

[Fiz]

just ask yourselves this for everyone that lives in a small world where Julius is an elite player and all that matters are three stats at the end of the year.

How many games can you look back at and say definitively "we won this game because of julius peppers" ?

[Urrymonster]

Peppers is probably the best bum to ever play the game.

If that is what you think then fair enough.

I just get the impression that people have always held him to too high standards.

I have seen the times when he did stand up and got caught as the play came back round, but that was one time.

I have also seen him chasing around behind the line of scrimmage, from one sideline to another, deflecting what must be a team high field goals and extra points, latching onto lateral passes and taking them to the house and then sacking, forcing the fumble and then recovering all in quick movements. The guy has literally made plays in ALL facets of defense and special teams and yet he is lazy in comparison to the guys who simply are on par with him in terms of generating pressure. I doubt any of the other DEs have changed as many games as Peppers has both defensively and on special teams.

Peppers has not really had help on this line for some time now and yet is constantly accused of taking plays off, yet still producing. That just does not add up. He plays a ridiculous amount of downs for us and would probably produce better with some rotation and yet he still has produced for us.

Anyone saying he turned up this year because he wanted to get paid are not looking at the facts. He would have been paid last year as well. Just he did not want to sign with us. He would have been the highest paid defensive player after his worst season and yet he didn't sign. He is not dictated by money. He wants to be the best and wants a fresh start. I just get frustrated that a lot of people on here have gone from saying he is a great player to saying that he is motivated by money and lazy and should get off the team. Ridiculous over reactions to the best De we have ever had.

[Urrymonster]

just ask yourselves this for everyone that lives in a small world where Julius is an elite player and all that matters are three stats at the end of the year.

How many games can you look back at and say definitively "we won this game because of julius peppers" ?

If you honestly do not think he has won games for us then I will stop discussing this with you. It's just not worth it.

[stankowalski]

then go back and watch any other what you would consider elite defensive end. Do they do that? Do you ever see Justin Tuck getting single teamed by tight ends?

I've actually seen Tuck not being blocked at all.

Do teams run right at Mario Williams in the 4th quarter?

um...yes.

does dwight freeney come out of his stance to standing up straight on 3rd down?

Even if he hadn't I couldn't care less, this has nothing to do with anything.

i'll save you effort: no, no they don't.

Yes, yes they do.

[carolinanimal]

has anyone saying pep is lazy, produced one fact that shows he is lazy?

i have a question. how do you define him being lazy? what does he do specifically that makes him lazy or take plays off? which plays where they? do you guys know what his defensive assignments were or even what happened in that play?

also people say he gets handle one on one by rookies and such, but my question is who hasnt? one time or another you will lose a battle agianst someone it has happened to the best players. when steve smith almost got shut out by nnamdi when we played the raiders, does that mean he sucks or takes plays off.

and for those looking at what buckner is saying, it is hard to take the word of a former player that was cut from the team.

one more thing, have you ever heard on any of our games from the commentators or anybody for that matter, say that julius peppers was lazy or takes plays off? they always talk about his HUSTLE, running plays down from BEHIND after they get through our "vaunted" dline. how many de do you know that can do that or are doing that.

bottom line, if i had to choose between a player that "takes plays off":rolleyes: and produces like he has this season, versus one who has all this so called "heart" but only produces have of what he does, i am taking option #1. The nfl is a business, and it is about production "heart" doesnt matter. just something for us to talk about on messageboards.

[carolinanimal]

This isn't hard to refute. The sacks are obviously plays that weren't taken off. What about the other hundreds of plays where Peppers didn't do much more than scratch the offensive line (and no, I'm not saying any play that doesn't result in a sack is "taken off")? And Peppers being one of our best players doesn't make him immune to justifiable criticism. If you abuse the Panthers and speak out like the ass you are, you're going to be "villified" for the right reasons.

Terrel Owens used to be a pretty good wide receiver. I guess 49ers and Eagles fans are wrong for speaking ill of him? And don't try to attack me on the grounds that Owens is far worse than Peppers in the locker room. Both have acted immaturely and inappropriately despite being given numerous opportunities to perform. Peppers was lauded for years as one of the best defensive ends in the league, treated like a god by Panthers fans and NFL players/fans across the board, and overall accepted as a one-of-a-kind talent that would do tremendous good for the Panthers. Obviously, that wasn't "good enough" for the defensive line messiah that is JPep. If you're not with us, you're against us. And Pep is certainly not with us.

are you SERIOUSLY comparing this situation with what terrel owens has done?

[stankowalski]

This isn't hard to refute. The sacks are obviously plays that weren't taken off. What about the other hundreds of plays where Peppers didn't do much more than scratch the offensive line (and no, I'm not saying any play that doesn't result in a sack is "taken off")? And Peppers being one of our best players doesn't make him immune to justifiable criticism. If you abuse the Panthers and speak out like the ass you are, you're going to be "villified" for the right reasons.

Terrel Owens used to be a pretty good wide receiver. I guess 49ers and Eagles fans are wrong for speaking ill of him? And don't try to attack me on the grounds that Owens is far worse than Peppers in the locker room. Both have acted immaturely and inappropriately despite being given numerous opportunities to perform. Peppers was lauded for years as one of the best defensive ends in the league, treated like a god by Panthers fans and NFL players/fans across the board, and overall accepted as a one-of-a-kind talent that would do tremendous good for the Panthers. Obviously, that wasn't "good enough" for the defensive line messiah that is JPep. If you're not with us, you're against us. And Pep is certainly not with us.

Ridiculous analogy, and I'm not even going to bother pointing out why.

Peppers is right. This team hasn't used him to his ability. He is better suited in a defense that will not only play to his abilities but allow the defense to do more than rely on one fuging guy to make plays. If he goes to a team with a good defensive coordinator, he will be even better than he is now, while our defense becomes more porous and lackluster. Unless something dramatic happens in the way our defense does things next year, i.e. major scheme changes, we will see a continuation of the shitty play we've seen over the last half of this season. Beason won't be able to stop what's coming all by himself.

[Urrymonster]

This is stupid. Apparently, the only stats that matter are quantitative variables; categorical variables are for losers who don't know what they're talking about and just want to pick on Peppers.

No not at all. Just explain why you think he is lazy. Explain why when he hustles behind the line of scrimmage to catch the ball carrier from behind is lazy. Why defelcting field goals and extra points is lazy. Why his production, whilst comparable to all the other top DEs, is considered lazy.

[Fox007]

If that is what you think then fair enough.

I was being sarcastic................

These Peppers cry babies are getting to you

[carolinanimal]

This is stupid. Apparently, the only stats that matter are quantitative variables; categorical variables are for losers who don't know what they're talking about and just want to pick on Peppers.

what? :confused:

All Stan and me are asking is that if you say peppers is lazy, SHOW US why? i could reason over any sensible argument, but not just, "pep is lazy!", " He takes plays off because I saw him" "Watch the games", "He disappears".

What plays were they? What made you think you took the play off? Were there other plays that he went above and beyond?

P.S

stan, good research on pep and allen comparison. i had done the same thing for him, allen and even demarcus ware.

[Fox007]

just ask yourselves this for everyone that lives in a small world where Julius is an elite player and all that matters are three stats at the end of the year.

How many games can you look back at and say definitively "we won this game because of julius peppers" ?

How many games can you look back at and say definitively "we lost this game because of Julius Peppers"?