Greedy <> Lazy

[teeray]

and smartly stayed in school for another year didn't he? ;)

Good point. But be honest. If he came out you were ready to take him. His one hit wonder didn't matter in that case I guess. Only with Cam.

[teeray]

At UNC there was a lot of smoke with Devon Ramsey in the NCAA investigation. To the point that he was ruled ineligible.

Last week it was ruled that actually he hadn't committed a violation and he was reinstated.

Again I am not trying to say Cam is definitely innocent, I just would hope you wouldn't be so quick to make a conclusive stance on his guilt.

[MHS831]

You guys have already determined he is a bust, a convict, greedy, selfish, and a bad teammate.

But some of these conclusions has come from things he may or may not have even done. In several of these "red flags" situations they are based on allegations that have never been proven.

I said something similar in another thread and someone (I think MHS) said, "Where there is smoke..." Knowing a little bit about the law I can tell you the "Where there is smoke.." phrase comes from prosecutors who lack proper evidence to convict someone. I can also tell you that every day in courtrooms across the country there are people acquitted who were charged because of a lot of smoke but later was found to be innocent.

It is a meaningless saying designed to convey guilt in the absence of concrete proof.

.

1. No. We are saying the red flags increase his chances to become a bust.

2. We are not judging to determine guilt or innocence, we are evaluating risk vs. return. His history is important. I doubt UF will release information to me, the Panthers, or the NFL. When red flags form a pattern, you have to decide if you TRUST the investment you are about to make. Since I consider myself a stockholder of sorts, I would seriously question the decision of the Panthers' leadership to invest in such a questionable venture. All investments contain risk, but there are safe risks. Good investors do their homework, and when they come across so many red flags they don't have court, they take their business elsewhere.

Do I need more than suspicious red flags to decide he is too much of a risk for the #1 pick? Nope. Have you all looked into the fact that these concerns could be the tip of the iceburg?

[teeray]

1. No. We are saying the red flags increase his chances to become a bust.

2. We are not judging to determine guilt or innocence, we are evaluating risk vs. return. His history is important. I doubt UF will release information to me, the Panthers, or the NFL. When red flags form a pattern, you have to decide if you TRUST the investment you are about to make. Since I consider myself a stockholder of sorts, I would seriously question the decision of the Panthers' leadership to invest in such a questionable venture. All investments contain risk, but there are safe risks. Good investors do their homework, and when they come across so many red flags they don't have court, they take their business elsewhere.

Do I need more than suspicious red flags to decide he is too much of a risk for the #1 pick? Nope. Have you all looked into the fact that these concerns could be the tip of the iceburg?

I guess my counterpoint to that is that a red flag is only a red flag if they actually exist. That is what we don't know, and we have to determine that in the evaluation process.

You guys have already decided these red flags are real and have made up your mind. But say some of these things turn out to be bogus. Are they still a red flag??

[teeray]

All investments contain risk, but there are safe risks. Good investors do their homework, and when they come across so many red flags they don't have court, they take their business elsewhere.

Safe investments in the investment world protect your wealth.

Risky investments make you rich. There is a flip side to rich though (but that helps your argument too much so i won't say it) :)

I don't think he is as risky as you guys do.

Plus do you give credit to personal testimony on the guy or just what opinion reporters who haven't spent five minutes with the kid say.

To me if I were taking testimony I would put a lot more stock in people who were there than people who just heard about it.

To put it another way. When the Panthers do their research they won't be calling Tony Kornheiser. They will be calling the people who know him.

[MHS831]

Talent: Superior Athletic ability; Good arm, makes all the throws, good runner.

Mechanics: A ways to go before he is consistently reading defenses. Footwork and throwing mechanics need work.

Football IQ: No evidence on film that suggests Cam is a student of the game. No testimonials from coaches or experts about above average or superior football intelligence. Reports say things like, "Does not anticipate WRs getting open..."

Character: Repeated concerns involving theft and academic cheating. Father also involved in NCAA violations. Comments suggest an undesirable perspective of what it will take to succeed.

Work Ethic:Physical conditioning is excellent. Mental conditioning is not obvious. Not many reports indicate that he is working to address these weaknesses or even has the realization of how much work he has ahead of him to be a franchise quarterback. Not too many reports that talk about his film study or chalk room understanding.

One positive, four that are not.

First overall pick?

BTW: Red flags are real. They are concerns. Based on real events. We are not making them up. Risk that is not safe is not smart. You minimize risk to get rich. You invest in risk to go broke.

[logic1977]

There is one connection that i can't seem to make. What in these "red flags" indicate that Cam would not be successful?

The pay to play thing is by far the most ridiculous one imo. For the sake of argument, let's assume he knew exactly what his dad was doing (which i think he did), this has been going on for decades with the elite athletes in college. Whether it is cash or other benefits the top tier athletes are gonna get perks and its the schools who are more criminal in this act than the athletes. You can't demand a pay to play scheme without someone wishing to pay, so please enough with this one.

Now the laptop and cheating issues, and please if you think he didn't know the laptop is stolen, just jump off a bridge now and ensure your genetic material doesn't dilute humanity's potential, are these really that big of an issue? I can't count the hundreds of examples i saw in college of someone using stolen PCs, or software, software especially. Many of these people were highly intelligent, capable, and are now currently highly successful in their fields. Good or Bad, it sounds a lot like Cam worked hard at football and skated on the other stuff, and i could care less as long as he still works hard at football. I cheated on tests in college on occasion, not because i thought it was right, or because i couldn't handle the work, i generally was one of the top students in any of my classes, but sometimes it was a class i didn't care about in the least, or i simply ran out of time, and knew that in the grand scheme of things that a test in school didn't count for anything.

[teeray]

Talent: Superior Athletic ability; Good arm, makes all the throws, good runner.

Mechanics: A ways to go before he is consistently reading defenses. Footwork and throwing mechanics need work.

Football IQ: No evidence on film that suggests Cam is a student of the game. No testimonials from coaches or experts about above average or superior football intelligence. Reports say things like, "Does not anticipate WRs getting open..."

Character: Repeated concerns involving theft and academic cheating. Father also involved in NCAA violations. Comments suggest an undesirable perspective of what it will take to succeed.

Work Ethic:Physical conditioning is excellent. Mental conditioning is not obvious. Not many reports indicate that he is working to address these weaknesses or even has the realization of how much work he has ahead of him to be a franchise quarterback. Not too many reports that talk about his film study or chalk room understanding.

One positive, three that are not.

First overall pick?

BTW: Red flags are real. They are concerns. Based on real events. We are not making them up. Risk that is not safe is not smart. You minimize risk to get rich. You invest in risk to go broke.

It is amazing that with all these negatives that 6 teams would have him number one overall and he would be in serious discussions to be the top pick in the draft.

So some people who's job's are on the line disagree with you.

[Mother Grabber]

No that isn't it at all. They are on his ass because he stole a laptop and tossed it out his dorm window as the cops arrived. they are on his ass because he was about to be perminately tossed from Florida for THREE instances of academically cheating.

They are on his ass because he is a one hit wonder. He couldn't beat out The Golden Calf of Bristol at florida, played against much lesser talent at JR college and only had one season at D1 where he actually performed. There are questions about his maturity and his dumb assed Icon comment didn't endear him to any GM's.

Look the Cam lovers need to take a step back and see this kid has very legit concerns surrounding him.

Nice little rant. In your blind anti-Newton rage, however, you completely missed my point...which is...*ahem*

If you think Cam Newton is greedy, you shouldn't count that as a negative against him, and you can quite possibly count it as a positive for him.

I never said anything about laptops or getting kicked out of school. If you want to disregard him for other reasons, that is a completely different discussion. I'm on the fence with Newton myself. But then, I'm on the fence will all of our options at #1.

[teeray]

BTW: Red flags are real. They are concerns. Based on real events. We are not making them up. Risk that is not safe is not smart. You minimize risk to get rich. You invest in risk to go broke.

Like I said. You think they are real. Even though the cheating allegations have been denied and were leaked by unnamed sources. Even though the NCAA themselves say he didn't know the pay for play scheme existed.

So if he didn't cheat, didn't know the computer was stolen, and he really didn't know about pay for play scheme. Does he still have red flags??? No. And we don't know that yet. The Panthers will investigate these things and make that determination. I ask you to trust that process.

Oh yeah, Warren Buffett and Donald Trump disagree with you. Both say you have to take risks most people wouldn't to get to their level of wealth.

[MHS831]

There is one connection that i can't seem to make. What in these "red flags" indicate that Cam would not be successful?

The pay to play thing is by far the most ridiculous one imo. For the sake of argument, let's assume he knew exactly what his dad was doing (which i think he did), this has been going on for decades with the elite athletes in college. Whether it is cash or other benefits the top tier athletes are gonna get perks and its the schools who are more criminal in this act than the athletes. You can't demand a pay to play scheme without someone wishing to pay, so please enough with this one.

Now the laptop and cheating issues, and please if you think he didn't know the laptop is stolen, just jump off a bridge now and ensure your genetic material doesn't dilute humanity's potential, are these really that big of an issue? I can't count the hundreds of examples i saw in college of someone using stolen PCs, or software, software especially. Many of these people were highly intelligent, capable, and are now currently highly successful in their fields. Good or Bad, it sounds a lot like Cam worked hard at football and skated on the other stuff, and i could care less as long as he still works hard at football. I cheated on tests in college on occasion, not because i thought it was right, or because i couldn't handle the work, i generally was one of the top students in any of my classes, but sometimes it was a class i didn't care about in the least, or i simply ran out of time, and knew that in the grand scheme of things that a test in school didn't count for anything.

I want to hear that he lives in the film room, studies hard, and has character. Are these synonomous with Cam Newton? When there is so much negative energy surrounding a player, you draft him #1?

When I don't hear these things, when I know he has no background in an NFL system, what do you have left? A 6'5" guy with quesitonable character who can throw a football and run a 4.65 40 yard dash.

Cam gets by on what God has given him and he is ready to be paid for his potential. He promotes his strengths and ignores his weaknesses.

The guy will have some good plays and make a few highlight reels in the NFL. But he will have to change his work ethic to succeed.

Cam supporters are saying he will change. Cam "haters" are saying he will not-especially after being paid.

Go on the Raiders and the Titans' sites and ask their fans how their opinions changed after drafting their "franchise" qbs who lacked the same intangibles.

[teeray]

I want to hear that he lives in the film room, studies hard, and has character. Are these synonomous with Cam Newton? When there is so much negative energy surrounding a player, you draft him #1?

When I don't hear these things, when I know he has no background in an NFL system, what do you have left? A 6'5" guy with quesitonable character who can throw a football and run a 4.65 40 yard dash.

Cam gets by on what God has given him and he is ready to be paid for his potential. He promotes his strengths and ignores his weaknesses.

The guy will have some good plays and make a few highlight reels in the NFL. But he will have to change his work ethic to succeed.

Cam supporters are saying he will change. Cam "haters" are saying he will not-especially after being paid.

Go on the Raiders and the Titans' sites and ask their fans how their opinions changed after drafting their "franchise" qbs who lacked the same intangibles.

Did you miss this from his actual teammates???

Ziemba remembers seeing Newton over the summer. Players put a great deal of stock in how hard a teammate works when there's no coach forcing him to do it.

"He was in the rain, throwing passes on the weekend when we were at the lake," Ziemba said. "He was dragging receivers out there with him. That kind of work ethic prepared our guys to follow him."

During winter workouts, Newton so impressed his offensive teammates in the weight room that they named him -- a quarterback -- to a five-man tug-of-war team to take on the defense. The offense won.

"You look at the Peyton Mannings, the Tom Bradys, the Andrew Lucks, the Jake Lockers, Terrelle Pryor," Newton said. "All these guys have something different they bring to the table. I'm a fan of all those guys. I'm continuously trying to see what they do, what makes them that good player or that great player and apply it to my own [game]."

"For me, I really wanted to go into Auburn and earn everything that I got with the team respect, trying to be that leader on this football team," Newton said. "And I knew it was a price I had to pay."

The coaches saw that work ethic. They took note of how the players responded to Newton.

"They really believe in him," Malzahn said. "That's really one of the main reasons he won the job. In the spring, we saw that. They really trust him. So his leadership is definitely a big reason we're here."

But Mike Maycock didn't say it so......

[MHS831]

It is amazing that with all these negatives that 6 teams would have him number one overall and he would be in serious discussions to be the top pick in the draft.

So some people who's job's are on the line disagree with you.

I didn't realize the other teams had the first overall pick.

Do you understand that the risk drops rather dramatically from the first pick?

[teeray]

I didn't realize the other teams had the first overall pick.

Do you understand that the risk drops rather dramatically from the first pick?

6 teams had him as the number one player overall in the draft. Even if they pick 15 they rate all of them. They don't start at 15 and go from there :rolleyes: