MasterAwesome

This dude has led his team to 11 PPG since taking over, which would be an NFL-worst by more than 3 PPG this season. He just put up 3 points at home for his offense against the Falcons two weeks ago. Even Rattler has averaged 5 more PPG this season, and he was benched for how poorly he was leading their offense. Rattler is a second-year 5th round pick with only 14 starts in his NFL career and is younger than Shough, so I think it’s still fair game to compare the two with the exact same supporting cast around them. Becoming a Shough fanboy is what happens when I guess you just read box scores on ESPN. You can fawn over Completion % and YPG but at the end of the day if a QB isn’t leading his offense to score points, that’s a pretty giant elephant in the room that I can’t just hand-wave. Is Shough an awful bust? Of course not, his career has barely started, and has a lot of good and a lot of bad like most rookies. But do I think he has been super duper impressive so far? Naw. We should decide as a fanbase if we’re actually serious about wanting better than mediocrity, or if we glaze starting QBs who score 11 PPG. I don’t think those are compatible positions.

I agree with you that AJ Brown and Mahomes were deserving of being nominated. I just find it odd that among these 6 nominees, Bryce is the guy you’re singling out as undeserving? Are you that impressed with Swift and Achane’s ~130 yards and 1 TD? It’s a lot easier to do a 1 to 1 statistical comparison between a RB and WR than it is to compare a QB to a WR. So it’s basically 130 yards and 1 TD (Swift/Achane) against 130 yards and 2 TDs (Brown). That’s way more clear and egregious than trying to argue a QB’s 200 yards and 3 TDs is worse than a WR’s 130 yards and 2 TDs. My vote would be swapping in AJ Brown for Swift, if you consider that Swift’s 7th round back-up had basically an equal stat line. And if you want to replace someone else on this list with Mahomes, may I nominate the opposing QB who he faced and outperformed? Dak wasn’t even the best QB in his own stadium that day. They were both very similar in yardage (if you include Mahomes’ 30 rush yards), but Mahomes had 4 TDs and 0 INTs to Dak’s 2 TDs and 1 INT. And you’ve talked a lot about your understanding of this award being largely statistics-based. But you have neglected two key stats here: the first being QB Rating, which I believe Bryce led the league in this week (someone fact check me). I know QB Rating is a bit different than a traditional metric that you can objectively evaluate on its own, but it’s arguably the most valuable singular stat since it encompasses all those other key objective metrics in quantifying a QB’s overall performance via a structured formula. And the other key stat which appears to be quite significant in their criteria when doling out nominations? WIN VS LOSS. You’ll notice the only nominee here that was on a losing team was Bijan Robinson who had almost 200 scrimmage yards and a TD. That also explains why guys like AJ Brown and Mahomes didn’t get nominated. I went back and revisited the nominees each week going back to Week 9 and you see roughly the same pattern each week: vast majority of nominees from winning teams, and the rare nominee from a losing team having a HUGE statistical performance. Examples being Bowers and London after their ~120 yard 3 TD games, Brissett after his 450 yard game where I think he broke some kind of NFL record for completion percentage, and Jameis Winston last week when he had 400 yards and 3 TDs including a 33-yard touchdown RECEPTION. In fact, those are the only nominees on losing teams over the last 5 weeks (5 total, averaging 1 per week). Bijan Robinson had arguably the most lackluster stat line of all the losers, with only 200 scrimmage yards and a TD. So yeah apparently it takes quite a monster game for a loser to get nominated and Brown/Mahomes apparently didn’t meet that threshold.

You kinda gloss over this, but this is really at the crux of this whole argument....which Flacco are we talking here? You bring up that he played with 3 different teams but ignore the fact that his performance varied quite a bit from team to team. 2024 Colts: 65.3% completion, 12 TDs, 7 INTs, 220.1 YPG, 7.1 Y/A, 90.5 rating 2025 Browns: 58.1% completion, 2 TDs, 6 INTs, 203.8 YPG, 5.1 Y/A, 60.3 rating 2025 Bengals: 63.4% completion, 12 TDs, 3 INTs, 290.6 YPG, 6.8 Y/A, 96.2 rating 2025 Flacco (Browns + Bengals): 61.1% completion, 14 TDs, 9 INTs, 252.0 YPG, 6.1 Y/A, 80.8 rating vs. 2025 Bryce: 62.7% completion, 14 TDs, 7 INTs, 196.2 YPG, 6.2 Y/A, 86.0 rating I bolded the comparison that I think objectively makes the most sense...just simply comparing the two QBs for the entire season. Otherwise you'd be cherry-picking Flacco's time with the Bengals and ignoring his earlier stint with the Browns, which sounds an awful lot like people cherry-picking Bryce's stats in the second half of last season. So again, which Flacco? Basically the only thing consistent with Flacco across each of these teams was his W/L records: 2-4, 1-3, and 1-4 respectively. I'd say if we're comparing each version of him to Bryce this year: Colts Flacco > 2025 Bryce, Browns Flacco <<< 2025 Bryce, Bengals Flacco >> 2025 Bryce, and 2025 Flacco < 2025 Bryce - Flacco this year only beats out Bryce on YPG but in part because he throws significantly more passes (almost 60 YPG more than Bryce, despite a lower Y/A which is pretty telling) . Flacco is maybe the most apt case study about how important a QB's circumstances are to his success. He was easily a bottom 3 QB in Cleveland and arguably top 10-15 in Cincinnati...and we're talking about the same player from the same season. All that happened was taking him from one team and plopping him onto another team; nothing inherently changed about him as a QB. Funny enough I think that's all that one dude on here was trying to say when he made that long poorly-received post after having an epiphany working for PFF behind the scenes or w/e. That it's largely short-sighted to just try to evaluate QBs in a vacuum when there are so many variables at play that ultimately decide whether a QB is successful or not. I think Bryce has been mediocre at best this season and I'm ready to move on regardless of how he ends this season - I'm highly skeptical a strong end to the season will carry over into next year considering how last year ended and this year began. I would certainly agree that he's a bottom-third QB this year. I just don't understand you scoffing indignantly at anyone holding the opinion that Bryce has had a better season than Flacco...I can only assume it's recency bias. Or maybe you know the stats don't support you, which is why you're conjuring up the god-forsaken arbitrary "eyeball test" which is the kinda thing people in here were saying about Fields for years, pinky promising that he really truly was a franchise QB despite his awful stats. Perhaps it's called the eyeball test because I roll my eyes anytime I hear someone bring it up seriously as an argument.

I’m not making any arguments for or against McMillan. But to those saying WRs don’t need to watch film - is there no benefit to studying the opposing CB he’s going to be lined up against? I would think any matchup-based positional battle can benefit from studying film on the opposition. Especially a top WR who can expect to be shadowed by the #1 CB…if they can learn the CBs tendencies, strengths/weaknesses, etc and use that to exploit their matchup, that’s a part of film study.

I'm sorry if fact-checking is uncomfortable for you since you just blindly accepted what he said as the truth. I mean why not just say Jaycee Horn has never played a single game and has had both legs amputated in the offseason if you want to be hyperbolic and think it's acceptable to lie about statistics? We can acknowledge that he has serious injury concerns while also not making stuff up.

That's not even true... Jeff Otah started 29/64 games (missed all of 2010) = 45%. Horn started 37/68 games = 54%.

You think Jaycee Horn of the Carolina Panthers is out here winning popularity contests? Hell if anything, it's more likely he suffered from the fan portion and had to make up a lot of ground among player and coach voting. Remember this graphic from a year ago? Somehow I don't think our fans are coming out in droves to campaign for Pro Bowl selections for our players. I don't hold the Pro Bowl in super high regard but if the claim is that no reasonable person thinks Jaycee Horn is a Top 10 cornerback, I think pointing to his Pro Bowl selection is surely a valid rebuttal to that. It would appear a lot of NFL players and coaches think he's a Top 10 cornerback, which I find rather compelling.

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/panthers-are-working-to-finalize-a-deal-with-eagles-dt-milton-williams I think hopefully we're still okay?

I don't think any of these moves in FA takes anyone off our board. Teams should be using FA to address their needs so that they can take BPA in the draft, instead of reaching out of desperation. I'm sure we have even stated as such.

How is this not a variation of the argument people gave for not drafting CJ Stroud because "look at this long list of failed Ohio State QBs"? I think it makes a lot more sense to judge a prospect on their own merits, rather than dinging them for the accomplishments (or lack thereof) of randos like Daniel Graham from 2002. All those players you listed have their own strengths/weaknesses and failed/underachieved for one reason or another unique to them as individuals. If you want to argue positional value, then that's different. I don't know anything about Tyler Warren, but if I could theoretically draft a Greg Olsen or a Brock Bowers with the 8th overall pick? I'd take that.

https://www.si.com/nfl/panthers/nfl-carolina-panthers-predicted-shaq-thompson-eddy-pineiro-ian-thomas-move-on It links to the same article in the OP but I don't have a subscription to see which interpretation is more accurate as to whether Person thinks the Panthers "could" move on from Ian Thomas (as Juan characterized) or whether Person expects the Panthers to move on from Ian Thomas (as SI characterized).

Poor CJS4LIFE

I only compared Legette and Coleman because the post I was responding to had compared them. Not sure why you're still claiming I said Legette "was solid", even after my last post was entirely dedicated to clarifying that he struggled. Even the other guy you think said Legette was solid, seemed to more be pointing out the double standard to praise an "impact rookie" like Troy Franklin who had far less production. Even if you want to go with the "more targets" angle, the Troy Franklin comparison doesn't really make sense either. Legette had 58% more targets than Franklin, but 89% more yards and technically 100% more TDs, although TDs are harder and less reliable to extrapolate. So Franklin still underproduced Legette if you normalize for target share. His point remains valid even under your reasoning. Yes Franklin was a 4th round pick and I think that's the key difference, but again that circles back to nobody disputing that Legette struggled this year, despite you misinterpreting a couple of posts in here. Anyways, sounds like we largely agree.

I don't know why you're arguing as if I'm claiming Legette had an incredible rookie season. I argued: 1) Legette is acknowledged as the most raw among these prospects. You don't evaluate a raw high-ceiling prospect like Legette against a polished pro-ready prospect like Ladd solely on the basis of their rookie seasons. If you think we should stop drafting the raw athletic guys and take the sure thing, then that's a separate discussion. But Ladd was always going to have the easier transition to the NFL and so nothing should be surprising about him vastly outperforming the other receivers drafted around him in year 1. 2) It felt like the timing was off between Bryce and Legette for a good number of the incompletions. So those are the justifications for the lack of production, from my point of view. If I'm explaining why I think Legette struggled, your rebuttal that Legette did in fact struggle doesn't make a lot of sense. Do you not put any of the responsibility on Coleman for the lack of targets? The Bills were desperate for somebody to emerge as their WR1 after trading Diggs. That WR room was wide open for Coleman to seize that opportunity. Instead, a guy like Shakir has less snaps than Coleman but almost double the targets. There has to be a reason Coleman isn't getting targeted more...and that reason (from 20 seconds of Googling) seems to be that he really struggles with separation. I understand being upset about passing over Ladd, but I don't know why Coleman is even in this conversation with his underwhelming rookie season.

Coleman had very similar production to Legette in their respective rookie seasons, but in a much better offensive situation. If you're acknowledging XL is the rawest of the three, then it doesn't make sense to compare them on the basis of their rookie seasons. Ladd's floor and ceiling may be mere inches apart (which is still a very good receiver), whereas Legette has miles to go to hit his potential. So it's all about his trajectory over the next 1-2 seasons. We're not built to win now anyways, so if Legette can turn into a 1000-yard receiver by Year 3 then that's still a win in my book, even if it took him longer to get there than it did Ladd. We have obviously been focusing on his drops this year, but also the timing between Bryce and Legette just seemed off at times. He had his fair share of underthrown and overthrown balls, at a seemingly higher rate than with Thielen, Coker, David Moore, and Tommy Tremble. I expect the two of them to build their chemistry in the offseason and the production should follow.

It was definitely a pretty spiral and a great throw for a non-QB, but I wouldn't say he dropped it in the bucket. Sanders had to slow down quite a bit to wait on it as it did have a lot of air on it. It was exactly the type of floater that Bryce would've gotten criticized for, but we're talking about a 1st overall QB vs. an undrafted WR so it's more than justified to assign a double standard here lol. It was an impressive enough throw that I think we can definitely add a few more trick plays in the playbook for him. I think it was a nice play design too.

I'm intrigued by Jarrett Kingston who we picked up in waivers from SF. I feel like he has potential to become a RT. There's no way I trust him to slot in for Moton now...but he's one of the guys I'm most interested in keying in on for next preseason.

His season is actually remarkably similar to Funchess's rookie season. Except Funchess got a good bit less targets/opportunity (only started 5 games). I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, I wasn't as down on Funchess as a lot of people here and Funchess actually progressed to have a pretty good season with us in his first year as a full-time starter (840 yards, 8 TDs). Obviously we would hope for more given Legette's ceiling, but I still wouldn't hate it if he could consistently give us that kind of production.

So you think there are people who are taking this one extremely specific chart and making a broad sweeping judgment about which QBs are *good* or *bad*? You're really grasping at straws there, buddy. That doesn't even make sense: the people who read too much into charts and graphs are the same people who say that stats don't tell the whole story? Maybe you can explain that one...sounds a bit contradictory. It's not that complicated. Use statistics to supplement what you see with your eyes on gameday. They're both a part of the equation. To me, this chart corroborates what we've seen Bryce do time after time this season - throw accurate passes into very tight windows. Do you dispute seeing him do that at a high rate, in accordance with the chart? If they released this exact chart last year with Bryce positioned very favorably for this metric, I think we'd all agree it's completely bogus cause it contradicts what we witnessed from his rookie season. Same principle with a PFF score or a 40 time at the NFL combine. Maybe you'll get a surprising result that will make you revisit the game tape, but nobody takes those at face value to formulate their entire opinion of a player.

Or in other words, you seem like you're just always trying really hard to take the contrarian/unpopular stance at any given moment. If consensus is high on Bryce, you become a critic. If consensus is low on Bryce, you become an apologist. Like you see yourself as some noble counterbalancing force to temper sentiment around here. Not sure if that's a mod thing or what. We just put up 44 points in a W against a hated divisional rival in their stadium to end their season with playoff aspirations on the line...behind a dominant performance by our much-maligned sophomore #1 overall QB who just put an exclamation point on what, by all accounts, was an impossible redemption arc. Yeah I think calling him a top 10 QB is rather hyperbolic, but if you'd rather go all "Ackchyually" guy meme than to "Huddle" up (pun intended) in excitement around a thrilling season finale, it's just an odd way to invest your time and energy IMO.

Yeah but that's every week harder to do that when pressure is coming from everywhere. I'm not taking anything away from Bryce, just saying give the man some adequate protection and LET HIM COOK.

O-line/protection was by far the biggest difference from last week to this week. And that was the difference between scoring 14 points and 44 points.

I’m not sure if there was a single “epic” throw all through his rookie season. Now there are arguably multiple each game. Our little man with the “big time” throws.

I'd like to see Tremble come back; it seems like he's developing good rapport with Bryce. That one long pass where Bryce scrambled outside the pocket and Tremble turned upfield right in sync as Bryce let the ball go, was some beautiful mind meld improv between QB and receiver that I haven't seen in a while from this team. But I also support Tremble to pursue what I believe to be his lifelong dream, of becoming an Olympic hurdler. Three things in life are certain: death, taxes, and Tommy Tremble making an unnecessary hurdle in the open field.

Come on man…lol. This requires the bare minimum level of critical thinking. The tweet doesn’t say “passing TDs”.