MasterAwesome

Are you suggesting that other teams’ fans know Nicole Tepper by name?

What about Micah Parsons?

Okay cool so it was a Freudian slip...you very clearly don't like the team (i.e. the Panthers' organization/staff)...do you deny that? So that doesn't change anything I said. Again you're being pedantic. You're totally not riled up, yet I'm "freaking out". I hate to break it to you but we're both exuding the same energy here...if I'm freaking out then you're freaking out. You sorta lose your right to play the chill zen carefree card when you've spent 20 pages arguing with 9 different people back and forth. If they're just basically doing "coachspeak" (which you acknowledge is a thing that all coaches around the league do) then what I don't understand is why you always time and time again make such a big deal and get pissy about it when it happens. I think most of the rest of us can recognize it and ignore it because it's a rather meaningless leaguewide norm, yet it for some reason drives you crazy to the point that you're jumping into rants about PR bs and how everyone is lying etc. like that one crazy grandpa at Thanksgiving dinner. I don't think I've ever witnessed a constructive discussion between you and anyone else because you simply never attempt to engage with anything anyone actually says, rather than all this performative drivel about "Sorry you can't handle what I'm saying" and "you're such a ________ fanboy" and "I'm just telling it like it is" and all these other meaningless platitudes. You just come across as some kind of rhetorical debatelord, but not an effective one. I've never seen someone post so many paragraphs, while saying so little. You have the same energy as the people in here who get so mad any time the bot does bot things and posts a fluff piece from the Panthers website. While the rest of us can recognize that the Panthers PR/website is just doing its job churning out content about the team, and subsequently ignore it without getting triggered every time. So to the rest of us who hear some throwaway line during the offseason like "The Panthers are a QB away from competing" or "we have the best WRs in the NFL" or w/e and pay it zero mind, here you are months and months later still bringing it up like it wronged you to your very core. You think the rest of us eat up whatever the team's PR spoonfeeds us...but in reality, the difference between us is we are capable of ignoring all the clear PR nonsense while you let it eat away at you for some reason.

The bolded is honestly the most important and relevant part of everything you said thus far, and basically summarizes the last 10 pages of you saying very little of substance. Your dislike for the team is the basis as to why you view everything they say and do through the most uncharitable and disdainful and conspiratorial lens possible. Everything they say, you assign the most nefarious possible interpretation to. "We are just a QB away from competing" = pure PR bs that they're deliberately feeding the fans...instead of them actually believing something and being wrong. Hyping up our "trash WR corps" = despicable BOLOGNA that they should be ashamed for lying to us about...instead of them actually feeling good about who they signed in the offseason. Actions speak louder than words...so if they're signing a guy like Miles Sanders to a significant contract in free agency, do you think it's more likely that they actually were genuinely high on him? Or was that a PR move to artificially drum up hype for a player they knew sucked? Your whole shtick of "I'm so enlightened that I see through all of the Panthers' BS and you are all SHEEP for buying all of the PR" is just bordering on Panthers Derangement Syndrome at this point. So apparently the PR angle of crediting Brown with the development of the playbook was to make him look as good as possible...that still makes no sense. Their priority is to hype up our OC who 90% of casual fans had never heard of? Why would people get hyped about a relative nobody designing a playbook? If anything, people would probably be more hyped about Frank Reich (a proven offensive coach with decades of experience) creating the playbook himself. Saying our OC created the playbook, and our HC is calling plays from a playbook that someone else created, seems like a counterintuitive PR move to me. It'd instill more confidence to know that one guy is calling plays from his own playbook that he created. Maybe Frank hasn't even been calling the plays all along...that could be a lie/PR stunt, right? He's been taking the fall for Thomas Brown all along and it's just the organization making him the scapegoat for when he gets fired and Brown slides in as interim HC. I get why you dislike the team...that's fine, it's warranted. But don't let it poison the well so much that if Frank Reich were to go up to the podium and say he had a roast beef sandwich for lunch, you freeze frame and zoom in on his teeth and say "what a load of horsepoo...that looks more like a piece of salami between his teeth. What a lying piece of poo". The things you're choosing to be pedantic and argumentative about is honestly very silly. Like you trying to clarify that you're not saying they're lying...only that they're feeding us PR bs. What a silly pedantic distinction to get hung up on. The substance of what you're saying is clear, regardless of what word you want to use.

Just stop breadcrumbing and get to the point. It shouldn't take 27 posts back and forth before we get to your actual argument. This isn't a 4-season Netflix series.

When did I ask you why you dislike Frank's offense? Huh? How do I post the same question twice and you still somehow answer a different one? But okay ignoring that weird comment...okay so this is clearly a Frank Reich offense because it runs out of shotgun a lot. Okay...hardly the compelling argument I was hoping for, but I guess we can leave it at that. We don't even know what a "Thomas Brown offense" would even look like, which seems like a pretty important detail when trying to determine how much of an offense is Reich vs. Brown. You choose to believe a Brown offense would be similar to a McVay offense because...why? Brown said so? So was it PR bs when he said he developed the playbook, but not PR bs when he said he integrated elements of McVay's offense? This gets complicated when we gotta pick and choose from the same guy's comments which are BS and which are factual. Can you now answer whether Ryan Kalil's full-page ad guaranteeing the Super Bowl was PR bologna or not?

Can you relax a little? I don't think I've ever seen you this riled up before. I find it odd that you state over and over again how this is a classic Frank Reich offense but you seem unable to articulate any details about what a Frank Reich offense is. Or at least I asked you for specifics, and you did not even attempt to answer that, so I am left to assume you don't know. Okay so at least you gave me one example of what you think is PR bs. The PR angle of saying we are a QB away from competing is obvious...it's trying to drum up hype this season. But can you explain the PR angle of our OC saying *before the season* that he created our playbook? Was that supposed to drum up hype? "HELL YEAH OUR OC WROTE THE PLAYBOOK, LET'S FREAKING GOOOOOOO" doesn't quite pass the sniff test to me. When Ryan Kalil took out an ad in the Observer guaranteeing we were gonna win the Super Bowl but then we proceeded to go 7-9 and miss the playoffs, was that PR bologna? Or was that something he actually believed that simply didn't come to fruition? Because if you are claiming Reich saying "we're a QB away from competing" is PR bs rather than something he believed that didn't come to fruition, then you would have to somehow prove that he didn't actually believe that. Hell, I believed we were a QB away from competing considering we almost made the playoffs last year with Baker Mayfield/PJ Walker/Sam Darnold at QB. It's pretty logical to believe that if you upgrade the far-and-away most important position in the NFL, then you can improve your record by a few games.

Can you give some specifics on the unique elements of a Frank Reich offense that convince you that his fingerprints are all over the playbook rather than Thomas Brown? Also, can you be more specific on some of these lies that Frank and co. gave before the season started that have since proven to be untrue? I've only heard you mention something about Frank saying Miles Sanders would be a 3-down back and yet he was subbed out on some 3rd downs. Or something...that's the closest thing to a "lie" that I've heard you mention so I'm curious what are some others?

Just curious, what's the sentiment in here on a Luvu extension? He's my favorite player on the team and I'm probably going to be buying a Franklin Luvu jersey the minute he hopefully gets extended, but I know historically most of you are super opposed to paying big money to linebackers. He will in all likelihood be getting paid big money...Roquan Smith just set the market earlier this year with a 5-year $100 million contract with $60 million guaranteed.

I would've agreed with you two staffs ago...but this is the third consecutive staff who apparently has no idea what to do with him. First it was Snow, then Wilks, now Evero. We're all still clinging to his amazing rookie season, but that was three years ago at this point.

14 carries for 20 yards is not a 0.7 YPC average. You're mixing up the numerator and the denominator.

No wonder David Gettis's career never blossomed He just barely missed the cut.

This is what appears to boil down to. We clearly have different criteria for what "shutting down" means. If you're at QB and Justin Jefferson is immediately running free on every play with 10+ yards of separation and the CB is getting juked out left and right but you just throw the ball into the dirt on every play, I wouldn't say the CB "shut him down". That would be quite a silly characterization IMO. You appear to be arguing from a Box Score perspective, the best I can tell? Like how many catches did the CB allow? That's why I explicitly stated in my initial post that the *tape* will shed light as to whether he's a shutdown CB or not. Same thing as a LT vs. DE matchup. If a LT technically doesn't allow a single sack or pressure but the QB immediately snaps the ball and scrambles right on every play and gets the ball out within 2 seconds while the LT loses literally every pass rush snap, immediately getting pancaked on his ass...I wouldn't say that the LT shut the DE down. My assessment is similar to the PFF approach, where they evaluate every single snap of a 1-on-1 matchup (like CB vs. WR, LT vs. DE) regardless of whether it was ultimately relevant to the play or not. It's possible that a CB could allow one catch for 11 yards all game and still end up with a 40.0 coverage grade.

Can you elaborate on that first point? How does a CB's *coverage* of a WR depend upon which QB is throwing the ball? If you're a CB who can stick to the WR like glue step for step on every play (which is more-or-less what a "shutdown CB" would entail), then again...what is an elite QB going to do? Basically just throw a 50/50 ball at that point. Maybe Mahomes gives Hill a better chance to catch that ball vs. Clausen, but coverage is coverage...it would be an amazing pitch and catch rather than an indictment of the CB's coverage. I think you're making an intuitive argument instead of actually thinking through the rationale. I can only assume you didn't read the second half of my post because I acknowledged that I don't know if Jaycee Horn is a shutdown corner or not...so why are you asking me to prove that he's a shutdown corner? You want me to prove an argument I never made? I was arguing conceptually that you can still be a shutdown corner without having played against an "elite" QB. Also, to your very last sentence: I know you posted in the Bill Barnwell thread where he put Horn's trade value as a 1st round pick, so I don't know why you would argue that no one outside of the Huddle considers him a shutdown corner. I didn't have access to the full article so I don't know if the actual term "shutdown corner" was used, but the OP paraphrased Barnwell's explanation as Horn "only" being worth a single 1st because of his injury history. That kind of value certainly seems in line with what a shutdown corner would fetch. So I think you meant to say "no one outside of the Huddle that I agree with is talking that".

If Reich coaches a good game and Brown has a strong performance in his playcalling debut and we ultimately win, I think that'll still reflect favorably. Especially if that success continues throughout the season. I doubt anyone within the Panthers' FO or any of us fans will hold onto a grudge about the first 6 games if Bryce and the offense starts firing on all cylinders and we start popping off some wins. Well, definitely some Huddlers will...but I'm guessing Frank's seat will still cool down a bit with Tepper.

I don't think bad QB play precludes you from judging a CB's coverage skills. You can always evaluate the matchup between a CB and a WR, independent of what the QB does. If a CB gets beaten on a double move but the QB doesn't see him and instead throws a checkdown, can we not say that was bad coverage on that play? Or if a WR has three steps on the CB but the ball is underthrown and allows the CB to make a play on it, we can still call that bad coverage right? On the other hand, it's of course very much possible for a CB to legitimately shut down his WR even if his QB stinks. If a CB is covering his WR step for step, what's a great QB going to do? Throw a catchable 50/50 ball? Then it's essentially a toss-up at that point. I don't think the "shutdown CB" label for Horn is as murky as you're making it out to be. I imagine there is more-or-less an objective truth to that question, which is revealed on the full game tape. Not what's shown on our TV screens at home on our couches, or what's revealed in box scores online. I won't pretend to know the answer to that question because I acknowledge that my perspective is limited as a fan who simply watches the weekly broadcast coverage. But I am guessing NFL GMs probably have an idea as to whether he's fitting of that label.

I would almost propose a different perspective on the Seattle game altogether. To me, the Seattle game was a cautionary tale and in part affirmed that our offense isn't built for the deep pass. Did Dalton take a few more deep shots? Yeah sure...did he also take a hell of a lot of hits, far more than we'd be comfortable with our expensive investment rookie QB taking? Anyone who watched the game would see that Dalton was routinely getting hit as he threw, certainly in part due to the extra fractions of a second it took to let those deep plays develop, en route to 10 QB hits for the game. I wouldn't want Bryce taking 10 hits a game. Dalton did an admirable job, I was genuinely very impressed with his poise and decision-making. But no way in hell is that kind of performance sustainable over the course of a season if he's having to stand there and take 10 hits a game and is routinely under pressure. That is exactly the type of game where I could easily see 3-4 interceptions thrown if the timing isn't absolutely perfect on those throws. It's just a crazy small margin of error. Also, "markedly different" offenses? Do you just mean there were actually a few "deep" shots completed...4 to be exact, out of 58 throws? The vast, vast majority of throws are still in that 0-15 yard range. I guess maybe we have different criteria for what "markedly different" means but it basically looks like the same exact scheme and pass distribution, just with a few deep passes completed. Which isn't crazy to imagine when you're talking about a QB who threw almost 60 passes. To be clear, I like that a few more deep throws were sprinkled in there and I do want that out of Bryce. I just think people are very much exaggerating how crazy different our offense looked with Dalton under center instead of Bryce. Most (not all) of the difference can be explained simply by the sheer volume of passes from Dalton.

I think the Young - Thielen connection goes beyond simply his ability to get open. Young is an anticipation thrower, and anticipation throws are predicated on a high degree of trust that your receiver is going to break exactly when he's supposed to and run his route at exactly the depth he's supposed to. I don't think Bryce necessarily needs elite receivers who can get open on every play (although that would obviously be ideal), rather than smart receivers who excel in route running who he can trust to be exactly where they are supposed to be when he releases the ball. TMJ, Mingo, Chark, and Shenault don't strike me as proficient route runners. What worries me about anticipation throws is that they seem like they have such a slim margin for error. I've seen some elite anticipation throws from Bryce, but I don't think it's sustainable to rely on it as your bread and butter.

I don't really disagree with much of this, but mainly because you've now arrived to my same argument lol. Your post I quoted literally said "This says it all, no need to dive in much deeper" and now you are actually diving deeper beyond the statistic, which is what I was advocating. It's not enough to say "hey look at this damning stat" - you've gotta evaluate what is contributing to that statistic. Same thing you just did with Joe Burrow. It would be foolish to go "Look at Joe Burrow...worst in the league in Y/A. Enough said, no need to go any further than that". The application of nuance and critical thinking seems to often be selective on these boards; people are willing to go to great depths to offer rational comprehensive analyses of other QBs, but when it comes to Bryce, it's all of a sudden extremely black and white for some reason. So yeah, our offense clearly emphasizes the short to intermediate passing game to where we're too one-dimensional, but we can't say for sure why that is. Sure it could be in part because the staff views Young as limited, or it could be because our o-line struggles to hold a block beyond 2 seconds, or because we seemingly only have one reliable receiver who seems to know how to run a proper route (and he's the furthest thing from a deep threat), or a number of other reasons.

I would say IAY/PA is the more reliable stat you're looking for. Y/A doesn't control for things like YAC where your receiver catches a short pass and takes it 80 yards to the house (we're among the worst in the league for YAC). Young is actually 0.1 yards higher than Mahomes, the best QB in the league who has largely been dinking and dunking his way to basically a top-2 QB statistically this year. He threw for over 400 yards and 4 TDs last night in a game where his longest throw was 22 yards. So is this a useless metric? Not at all, but it's just one chapter of a bigger story. I think people like to point to this stat as one of the most indicting testaments to Young's struggles but awkwardly ignore several of the elite QBs who are right there with him in that same statistic.

This is what you get with Fields. He’s a QB with the highest peaks, but the lowest valleys. He’s got two 300-yard 4 TD games sandwiched between two games of <100 passing yards and 1 combined TD. I don’t recall ever seeing a QB so wildly inconsistent…and it feels like if we’re talking about hoping for more consistency for a QB halfway into his third season, the odds don’t look great for him. I imagine 32/32 NFL GMs would rather have a less talented but more consistent QB. You can’t win with a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde at QB in the NFL, and Fields’ record shows that.

Maybe as a more dominant Taysom Hill type weapon.

Well this trash Saints team beat the Patriots 34-0. They're pretty awful.

There are some totes chill vibes in here.

OP is one of the biggest Bill Barnwell shills...may even be the man himself if you ask me.