tukafan21

There isn't a thing that XL or Coker does better than T-Mac If T-Mac is there and we pass on him because of the WRs we currently have, every person involved in that decision should be immediately fired on the spot. If they pass on him because they like someone else better, that's different, but in no world can any NFL front office look at a WR room of XL, Coker, and 87 year old Thielen on the last year of his contract (if we even bring him back instead of letting him go try to play for a contender) and say, "you know what, we're good enough at WR and don't need to take T-Mac because of it" Everyone is complaining about XL's drops, but sure, let's pass up on a player with some of the best hands I've seen in a college WR in a long long time.

He got cut because it was just the smart decision for the franchise. If he got hurt, his contract next year became guaranteed, which was something they couldn't have. He wasn't going to play again this year, let alone even be active for any games, keeping him around would just be a distraction for everyone and be messy.

That is really weird, makes no sense I do think it's pretty cool though that for the 2nd round the Rose Bowl is getting Oregon/OSU though

Uh, what? Colorado and BYU are playing each other in a bowl game? Since when do bowls have teams from the same conference play each other???? (not counting playoffs of course)

The Browns chances of beating the Dolphins go up dramatically if Tua ends up not playing, and he's now listed as doubtful. There is a very real chance we are sitting in the 4th spot after this weekend This is also why winning last week wasn't a good thing, as it quite possibly cost us the 3rd pick if we end up losing out, as I'm convinced the Patriots will end up winning next week. As if the Bills beat the Jets tomorrow, they're then locked into the 2 seed no matter what happens in week 18. When that happens, the Bills are going to be resting all of their regulars, and playing in NE against a team with a bunch of coaches and players who's jobs are on the line. And for those who have been screaming "trade back" for a while now, being behind both the Patriots and Jags in the draft are an absolute worst case scenario for anyone wanting to trade back. Nobody is trading up in this draft for a non QB, and there are only 2 QB's who teams are trading up to get, and the Giants will take one of them at #1 assuming they don't sneak out a win. Winning an OT game isn't going to do anything to carry over to next year, it didn't allow us to evaluate players more than a loss in the end would have been. This is exactly why I can't understand the "I'd rather win and enjoy it" argument over losing a game such as that. That "joy" of winning has already worn off for those people, but sure, let's keep pretending that it wasn't a bad thing for the future of the franchise. Nobody is saying we should purposefully play bad and lose, but wanting us to play well, be competitive, but end up not being able to pull out a win is what every REAL Panthers fan should have been hoping for over the last month or so once the season was officially shot.

I'd rather be celebrating playoff wins in a few years than December wins in a 4 win season. I'm not against rooting for us to win meaningless late season games, I did it in the early Cam years without hesitation. The difference is we had so many key players in those years, that winning was what was best for our future. Right now, I don't see it, we have a couple great players and then a bunch of JAGs across the board, if even that good. We just beat a team that is historically bad on the road, who has only beaten 2 playoff teams this year (and that's assuming the Rams still get in). It's not like we just beat some great team soundly, I don't see this win as a turnaround for the franchise.

Just as the majority of fans have been rooting for that at the end of seasons for years. How's that working out for us right now? We're not here because we haven't had a winning culture, we're here because we haven't had good enough players to build a winning culture, regardless of the coaching staff.

Eh, you're looking at it in a vacuum by draft slot, not how they got the picks. Gibbs and Laporta were because they had the 6th pick in the draft and traded back to get those additional picks to get those guys. They had the 6th pick in the draft from the Goff trade. The Rams lost in OT in Week 18 the previous season, if they win that game, the Lions fall back 2 more draft picks and probably aren't able to make that same trade to get both of them. They got Sewell because we won a meaningless game in Week 17 the season before, if that doesn't happen, we're drafting Sewell before them as LT was our biggest need at the time. All of that is also a moot point, because them going on that winning steak to close out the 2022 season didn't affect them getting any of those players. They already had most of them, and the ones they added after that season, was mainly because of the 6th pick in the draft that they held and was only that high because the Rams didn't win a late season game. And THAT is the point in all of this. As you said, it's a combination of having the players and building a winning culture. And 9 times out of 10, you can't build the winning culture and then add the players afterwards, it's the other way around, you get the players and then build the culture. The Lions had the players and then built the culture, that's how it's done in the NFL.

Good freaking lord. How many times does this have to be explained, it really is not a hard concept. NO... players and coaches will never intentionally lose games, and fans shouldn't want them to. But as FANS, we can hope we end up losing games because it is what is best for the franchise, even if the players and coaches are trying to win them. Losing is not the same as tanking, they are two entirely different things, one is acceptable, one is not.

Hey guys, remember when we won those meaningless games in 2010 and it cost us the #1 pick and the chance to draft Cam? Oh.... right I get that's more of an extreme example because it got us a HOF caliber QB. But it's the general concept, you want to win late season games when you have the pieces in place to make a run the next season, we currently are not in that place. Herbert and Sewell are the ones I point to so much, because we literally lost out on 2 franchise different makers by 1 draft slot. Give us those two players while we still have CMC, Moore, and the rest of the picks we gave up for Bryce, and we'd have been a legit playoff contender the last few years. Draft position matters in the NFL more than any other sport (other than the #1 pick in the NBA in a year with a generational talent).

You're right, good teams don't worry about where they are drafting. The problem with that... WE ARE NOT A GOOD TEAM We have a solid OL, we have a good RB in Hubbard, we have an elite DT in Brown, and we have a possibly elite CB in Horn if he can continue to stay healthy. Outside of those players, right now, who do you see on this roster that has a shot at being a Pro Bowl caliber player in the next few years? This roster is so void of high end talent that saying things like "good teams don't worry about where they are drafting" is one of the more asinine statements I've heard on here in a while.

If you think the Lions are who they are today solely because of Dan Campbell, then you just don't get it. Don't get me wrong, he's a huge part of it, but........... Amon Ra, Gibbs, Goff, Sewell, Ragnow, Hutchinson, Branch all off the top of my head are better than any player on our roster not named Derrick Brown (and some of them are better than DB anyways). And that's before you even talk about guys like Montgomery, LaPorta, Smith, Campbell, all of whom would be starting over players on our team right now as well (and there may be others too, I don't have their full roster memorized). Culture is great and all, and no, you can't win without it. But more important than culture is actually having the players you need to win, and we just don't have that right now, our roster is still a mess. If you don't think the franchise would be in a better place if we were picking 1 draft slot better in 2020 and 2021 and have gotten Herbert and Sewell in those drafts, then you're kidding yourself. We could have had an offense of Herbert, CMC, Moore, and one of the game's best LT's. But sure, that extra win in each of those seasons still give me all the good feels all these years later, who needs to have an offense with all those guys in their prime.

Again, how has winning late season games over the past 5 years or so helped change our culture and turned this franchise around? It hasn't, all it's done is hurt our draft position and caused us to possibly miss out on the players who actually would have helped turn things around. This same group of fans who are "anti tanking" because of "building culture" are the same ones who say it every year at this time. When are you going to realize that the best thing for the future is having the better draft picks to help build up your team? Better players > meaningless late season wins It's not even a matter of the specific players in this upcoming draft, it's a general principle.... If you are a franchise devoid of elite talent and won't be in a position to contend the following season, late season wins hurt more than they help. If you are a team on the rise, with a lot of quality pieces, that's when you want to win those late season games to help you build upon that the following season. We're the former, not the latter. I'm not against winning late season games, I'm against it when we're in the state our franchise is currently in. We are NOT contending next year, no matter how this offseason goes, it's just not going to happen, we still have far too many holes and not enough elite players. I point to the 2021 and 2022 Lions as the perfect example of this. Yes, the 2021 team had some late season wins, but they didn't hurt their draft positioning (key difference). Then the 2022 team, that had a lot of great young pieces, started off rough at 1-6, but then 8-2 to close out the season. They were then able to carry that over into the next season and made it to the NFC Championship. That's where you want to win those late season games, because they had the majority of the pieces in place already. That's just not us right now, this win isn't going to carry over into next season like it did with them. If you can't see the difference there, then that's a you problem, not a me problem. This win (and any others in the final few weeks) is NOT equal to the 2021 Lions late wins, as this is hurting our draft positioning and it didn't for them. Wins/Losses aren't in a vacuum, they're all relative to the rest of the league in that given season and how it affects the standings.

Having a playoff caliber team is fun. Being 3-11 and winning a meaningless game in December if a lost season is t fun, it’s pointless. What has been fun about us winning all these meaningless late season games over the last 5 years or so? We do it every year, where has it gotten us? Where is that winning culture everyone claims it leads to? Thats why I can’t understand people saying that stuff, as it clearly has lead to helping turn this franchise around when we do it EVERY SEASON. It’s not like we rarely do it. We literally have done it every season since the Cam years, we win late season games, hurt our draft position, miss out on elite players, and still suck the next year. So please, tell me why this season is any different?

Because they still ended up with the 2nd pick of the draft and then got bailed out when the Jags didn’t take the best pass rusher in the draft anyways. This win very well could end up costing us 4-6 spots in the draft depending how things close out. Those two things are not the same

I’d rather enjoy being a yearly contending team instead of enjoying meaningless late season wins in lost seasons, every single year. We do this all the time, lost season, win a couple late season games, hurt our draft position, miss out on the players we really would have wanted, and repeat. It’s how teams get stuck in NFL purgatory. Never bad enough to get the true elite prospects that can change your franchise and never good enough to contend for the playoffs. Have you really enjoyed the last 5 or so seasons? Does this one win really make you that happy to where it’s going to carry over to this point next year when we’re still not close to contending for the playoffs?

There is a 100% chance we’d have taken both of those guys had we been one pick earlier, we had no QB or LT in those seasons.

At that part of the draft, every pick you fall can be a MASSIVE difference maker. In 2021, picking 7th instead of 6th cost us Justin Herbert In 2022, picking 8th instead of 7th cost us Penei Sewell When winning meaningless games causes you to fall from say the 12th pick to the 15th, it’s not as big of a deal. But when a meaningless win could drop you from 4th to 7th, then it could cost you significantly.

It’s because they’re both coming back that I’d rather lose. Momentum from winning one game this late in a lost season doesn’t carry over. You need to close out with like 4-5 wins out of 5-6 games for that type of thing to carry over. All this win did was hurt our draft position, nothing else

Losing > winning at this point in a lost season Losing isn’t tanking, why is that such a hard concept for people to understand? Tanking is losing on purpose, which no team will ever try to do. But losing is better for the franchise. As a player/coach you want to win, as a fan, you should want what is best for the team, which is losing. Your joy of this win will be gone within a few days, it’s not going to make next season (or future seasons) any better when we’re drafting later because of this pointless win.

No idea who this guy is but this video was the first result on youtube for T-Mac's name and I thought it was a good short breakdown of him. Went over his hands and catch radius, and then touched on the speed discussion as well.

When his 2nd contract is kicking in, he's going to be a Top 5 WR type of guy I don't understand the "he looks slow" analysis either, outside of people just wanting every WR to have track star speed. No, he's not a speedster, he doesn't have Jefferson or Chase type of speed, but he's 5" taller than them, of course he's not going to be as fast as them. But he's plenty fast, I think he's going to run a sub 4.5 time at the combine. If you watch his highlights and think he looks slow, then you're not watching enough of them, he's constantly making defenders miss and running away from them off screens and crossing routes where he's often used. And he's not going to be Tyreek taking the top off the defense with his speed, but the deep ball is his specialty because of his ability to high point the ball and make plays over multiple DB's at once. His size and hands also allow his lack of elite speed/separation to not be a problem as the QB is able to keep the ball away from the defenders with his catch radius and his ability to block them out. This is where the Mike Evans comp comes from, as he's not some elite separator but it's never mattered, that's T-Mac's game. He can run every route there is, yes he may need to crips some of his cuts up, get a little quicker off the line, but every Junior in college still has things they need to work on. To think he won't improve on those things is crazy, it's not like he's a poor route runner, that's much harder to teach than for a player to build some quickness to give them even more of an advantage than they already have. I honestly think his floor is XL's ceiling, a low end WR 1, and that's if he doesn't improve at all, I think he's already that good of a WR right now.

Nobody is disrespecting Cam by saying it's Allen. Just as nobody is saying Cam didn't change the QB position to allow guys like Allen to be given a chance and then flourish. But I don't know how anyone can look at the stats between them and objectively say that Allen hasn't surpassed Cam in terms of being a better QB, even if he still needs a few more seasons to pass Cam's totals. Cam played 48 more games than Allen, which is almost 3 full seasons, but Allen is only 6,000 yards passing behind Cam, only 1,500 yards rushing behind Cam, and already only 11 rushing TDs behind him as well. Allen already has 2 more passing TDs than Cam and has 40 less INTs than Cam had (.77 per game to .83 per game in Allen's favor). Allen started his career out with a 53% and 59% completion percentages his first two seasons and hasn't been below 63.3% in the 5 years since then. Cam only has 4 seasons in his career above 60% and only 1 of those was above that 63.3% that Allen has been above for the last 5 years. (not to mention, that one season Cam had above Allen's number, was his one full season with CMC as the main RB, when he had literally 1/3rd of Cam's completed passes, mostly on screens of course which naturally would have boosted Cam's completion percentages) Yes, the Bills have done a better job at putting quality pieces around Allen than we did, but that still doesn't change that Allen has surpassed Cam as a QB at this point. And that's not a knock on Cam, he's still going to be in the HOF, he's still going to be my QB for ever. It's just appreciating what Allen has become and looking at it objectively.

I love Cam, he will always be MY Quarterback But the answer is Allen and at this point, it's frankly almost to the point where it isn't even a close debate. Cam still edges out Allen's running by a tad, but Allen's passing is already better than Cam's ever was. The reality is that over the last season or two, Allen is becoming the QB we all expected Cam to be. And for those using the Super Bowl appearance as why it's still Cam, then you're just fooling yourself because you want the answer to be Cam. Allen has been to the playoffs 5 times, 3 of them he lost to KC and Mahomes, each of them in seasons KC went to the SB themselves. If Mahomes wasn't Mahomes, Allen would have already been to a SB by now. Trying to knock Allen for that would be like saying Peyton wasn't as great as he was because of how many times he couldn't get past Brady in the playoffs. We all love Cam, but there isn't anything wrong with just being honest when comparing two great QB's who will both end up in Canton.

The main problem here though is that second part is what makes the first part incorrect. If Bryce is the guy next year in a sink or swim season, you NEED to get him a #1 WR, and the most likely path to that is drafting T-Mac, I honestly think he's our only chance at getting a #1 WR in this offseason. Hunter's main position is going to be a CB and we're going to be picking in the Top 10, higher than Burden is going to be drafted. Higgins isn't coming here unless we make him a Top 5 highest paid WR in the game, which would just be an asinine contract for him. After him, there are actually a few other decent WRs in the FA market this offseason, the problem is they are all older WRs past their prime who even if they have a year or two left in them as #1 WRs, they are signing with contenders, not us (like Diggs, Adams, Hopkins, Cooper). The closest option would be Godwin, but he's not an outside #1, he's a slot who is best as a #2 option, and coming off a bad injury. The only other option would be to try and trade for someone who's team doesn't want to give them a new contract, but any team like that is likely going to want a future 1st round pick for them (such as a DK Metcalf) like those trades in the past few years of AJ Brown and Tyreek, and our future 1sts need to be untouchable until we're settle on a QB. Yes, I know coming from me of all people, this seems like another T-Mac support post, but it's not, it's just pointing out the realities of him probably being the only legitimate option for us to acquire a #1 WR in this offseason.