tukafan21

Because we don't see it with him, we see a system that was built for him to put up big stats like his dad intended to do, and we see a player with serious red flags outside of his actual on field abilities as well. Even if you think he will make it in the NFL, coming to a franchise as much of a mess as we are, is not how a player like him will succeed at the next level, it's only going to create problems. The Deion show is going to be wild in the NFL, our franchise isn't in a state to handle it properly (and that's ignoring that many don't see him as an elite prospect at the same time).

I just said this in another thread and it's still not a pro T-Mac post here either. But if XL and Coker are your Top 2 WRs heading into next year, that is a bottom 5 WR room in the NFL. In what way is WR a luxury pick right now? Outside of an elite edge rusher (and the QB situation), a true #1 WR is the biggest hole on our team at the moment and until it's filled, we'll struggle to pass the ball.

XL and Coker could make for a decent pair of WRs in a few years, but they will never both be good enough to be a Top 2 WR pairing on a contending team. And if those are your top 2 WRs going into next season, that's one of the 5 worst WR rooms in the NFL, no doubt about it. This is NOT a T-Mac post, it's just a general and accurate statement about our WR room at the moment.

I'm fine, I just want us to draft with our head's for once and not the media darling of the year. Can you breath with Deion's nuts so far down your throat?

That you still can't or refuse to see the fact that Shedeur doing things like that is a red flag, is pathetic. I can't ever remember a player trying to force their way to a specific team (or two) in the NFL draft. And no, Eli doesn't count, as the Manning family made it very clear at the start that they weren't trying to get to the Giants or anywhere else specifically, it was that they refused to let him play for the Chargers as their ownership and never shown being serious about winning. I want no part of any player Deion has a hand in. If we were a great franchise, with a ton of locker room leaders, strong front office and coaching staff, all of that, then it's not as big of a problem or risk to take one of these two guys. But we don't have any of that, you put those players into this franchise right now, and it's going to be a problem. If you draft one of them and that ends up being the case then we can forget about winning anytime soon. You take a team as struggling as much as we are and you create that type of locker room problem, it's going to get so much worse than just missing on a pick.

Here's the best realistic case scenario for the rest of the season....... Giants lose out, Raiders beat Jags, Titans beat Jags, Jags beat Colts, Browns beat Dolphins in Cleveland. Even if we sneak out one more win, if the above all plays out, we still could be picking as high as 4th depending on SOS of us, Jags, Titans (Browns will be too high of an SOS to be in the mix there with us all having 4 wins). But if we also then lose out and the above happens (except if we do, Browns don't have to win again), we're then most likely picking 3rd after the Giants and Patriots (unless the Patriots beat the Bills in Week 18 and we move up to 2nd, which could happen if the Bills have nothing to play for and rest everyone). The key though in all of that is that the Raiders are then picking 4th behind us. Giants take a QB, Patriots hopefully fall in love with Hunter and take him, and we're able to bluff the Raiders into us trading the pick to someone else, we get their 2026 1st (and maybe more) to swap picks with them and we get to take the same player we'd have taken at #3 but get great additional draft capital at the same time. If Deion won't let us draft Hunter, then I want the above all to happen and then the Bills rest everyone and the Patriots beat them. That way it's Giants, Panthers, Raiders, Patriots and we don't have to worry about the Raiders making the trade with the Patriots at #2, as I'd love to be able to swap back one pick to get draft assets for free and still get the player we want. But I'd rather the Patriots be there to take Hunter if Deion doesn't tell us no, because I'm so much against drafting him that I want him off the board when we're picking, I think he's going to be a huge locker room problem in the NFL and be more like an Antonio Brown in a few years and pure locker room cancer.

literally what I pointed out like 2 hours ago, that we were more likely to be in the 5th spot than the 3rd before today ended. And we could very well move right back up to 4th before this week's games are over anyways. No matter who wins the Bears/Vikings game, the Jags SOS improves as their SOS is below .500. But if the Vikings win, as expected, ours will fall because of it. Unfortunately the same thing is set up in the Raiders/Falcons game but in reverse, and worse, as both us and the Jags played the Raiders, but we play the Falcons twice, so if the Falcons win, it hurts our SOS double. A Falcons though would hurt out SOS doubly, and thus help our draft positioning). But then if the Packers beat the Seahawks tonight, that then also hurts the Jags SOS. I'm not going to try and do the math on it all to figure out, because it doesn't really matter with 3 weeks still to play, but it just goes to show how volatile SOS can be in the end and is the first tiebreaker for draft positioning (worse SOS gets the higher pick). Especially as the Jags and Raiders play each other next week, and with the Raiders much tougher SOS than us and we're tied with the Jags, if we lose next week, we jump ahead of whoever wins that game anyways (and if the Raiders beat the Jags, it could also mean we jump both if the Jags SOS ends up going higher than ours too).

And they might, but that has no bearing on the fact that we're not going to be in the 3rd pick position by the end of this weekend. My dream scenario is the Raiders end up one pick behind us and we can leverage the threat of trading the pick to another team into them giving us their 1st rounder next year (and maybe more) so they can get their QB and then we still get to pick whatever other player we wanted.

Hunter had no business winning this award, he was a great player on both sides of the ball, but he wasn't near the best at either position. In the end, what I go back to, is that Colorado had the Heisman winner on both sides of the ball and a Top 10 Heisman finisher at QB, and they couldn't even make the expanded playoffs. If those two players were actually as good as things like this (and other awards) voting seemed to say, then they 100% should have been in the playoffs. Hunter won this award because he was supposed to be so amazing on both sides of the ball. How can you make that argument while ignoring that it wasn't enough to help them get into the playoffs? If he was THAT good, he should have been able to drag his team there the way someone like Jeanty did. If he was the best CB or WR and then really good at the other, then maybe, but he wasn't. The fact that he won the best WR award is an absolute joke. I've always said stats don't matter when you're projecting a player for the NFL, but they do matter when voting on collegiate awards based on their play during the season. He won a popularity contest, not a "who was the actual best player" contest.

There is a better chance we're in the 5th slot at the end of the day than the 3rd Patriots are down 10-0 already, once they lose, we fall to 4th. We're also now currently tied with the Jags on SOS. I'm not about to do the research to figure out who has to win/lose the rest of the day (and tomorrow) to change each team's SOS, but I'm sure there are scenarios where our SOS becomes tougher than the Jags before this weekend is over and we then fall to 5th at the moment.

So first of all, we didn't actually move up to 3rd in the draft, the Patriots just haven't played yet. And second, I will stand by this until the end of time... Hunter will be a bust in this league because his ego will end up getting the best of him. It has nothing to do with his talent, but Hunter and Shedeur are tied with the biggest red flags of any 1st rounder since Manziel. He's going to be drafted by a team as a CB and told he'll get 5 or so offensive snaps a game. The team will struggle on offense, he will piss and moan about not being used both ways, it's going to cause problems. He doesn't have a head coach, he has a pseudo father figure slash big brother who lets him do whatever he wants whenever he wants. If people can't see he's being set up for a rude awakening in the NFL where he isn't given preferred treatment, then I can't help you. I've said it before and it's not a joke, he's not on my draft board, period. And it has nothing to do with his football ability, at all. I still go back to Deion thinking Hunter stealing shoes from him from his office was funny and Deion posting the video of it on social media himself. What other player at any level of any sport can do that and their coach find it funny? There are more things than just that one video, but it's a perfect microcosm of what I've been talking about with him. Deion was great for Shedeur's and Hunter's college careers, but I think he did a big disservice to both of them for getting them ready for life in the NFL, and I've said this for 2 years now.

Overdrafting a non elite QB prospect just because they're better than the awful QB you already have is exactly how bad teams continue to suck. People are far too focused on figuring out the QB situation to realize just how bad this roster is and inserting the wrong QB prospect into said roster isn't going to fix those problems. We're still in year 0 of a re-build at the moment, stop trying to force a square peg into a round hole. This is not the draft to reach for a QB, you build up the roster for a season, take your lumps, and then take one in what is supposed to be a QB loaded draft next year.

Taking the 3rd QB in a weak QB class because you "have the opportunity to do so" is exactly how bad teams continue to suck

Was just weird post to compare my love of the best player in school history, from the school I graduated from, to your love of a random team/player that you have zero connection to. No poo I'm going to love him more than you love Colorado/Hunter/Sanders lol If we don't draft him, T-Mac is going to be the only player who has a chance to take over my "favorite non Panther in NFL history" from Gronk. But even then, it's going to be real hard if not impossible for him to do that, seeing as Gronk not only turned out to be the best TE of all time, his 2 years in college (injured his whole 3rd season and didn't play) were my last 2 years in school, so I got to watch him in person in college too. Gronk is also the only other Arizona football (or basketball) player that I've ever talked about being so sure they'll be a superstar in the pros like I have with T-Mac. That's how sure I am of him being a star, it's one of those things that's hard to exactly put into words, but watching them, they just look and feel different. I was telling my friends Gronk was the next big TE after literally his first college game as a Freshman when he carried 3 players hanging on his back almost 10 yards. You could just see it right away, there was something different about him, and I see it in T-Mac as well.

I'll actually defend Hunter here and say he is a better pairing with Horn than Johnson would be. Johnson is a bigger more physical corner while Hunter is smaller and faster. We have the big physical corner in Horn, and most teams don't have two big imposing WRs you need to be physical with, so pairing him with a speedster who would better align with what we already have. Not that I wouldn't want Johnson if we can't get T-Mac in the end, but just saying I think it would be duplicating a little bit of what we already have.

Tell me one point I'm wrong about in all of that? And yea, if you love Colorado, a school/players you have zero connection to, more than I love maybe the best player in school history, from the school I graduated from, then it would be a really bad sign for you, not me, lol The fact that my NFL team could be in a position to draft that player and is at a position of need for them as well, yea... I'm going to defend him at any and every opportunity. It's not often the best player in your school's history might get drafted by your favorite NFL team.

I mean, I'm fine when people want to have differing opinions about a player and their potential. But when your arguments against one player are just nonsense that don't align with who they are, then yea, I'm going to call it out. It's so comical for someone to literally say, "you need to look beyond the stats" and then talk the player down because of his... checks notes... "lack of stats outside of one big game" despite that also, just factually being incorrect for a number of reasons. The guy has 174 rec, 2,700 yds and 18 TDs over the last two seasons, but sure, his stats are inflated because of one or two big games, LOL (and that's ignoring his 700 yards and 8 TDs as a Freshman too). Then to talk about him as a possession WR who lacks speed or agility, again, comical. Most "expert breakdowns" of his game specifically talk about how someone his size shouldn't be able to move like he does. No... he's not going to move like Jefferson, Chase, Nabers, etc... because he's not 6' tall and a speedster type of player like those guys are. But those guys also don't have the catch radius that T-Mac has, given that he is 5" taller and a better leaper than those guys as well. It would be like Bucs fans complaining that Evans can't do the things they do while ignoring the things that Evans does that they can't. It's all a trade off, you might not get certain things out of T-Mac that those others would provide, but you're going to get things from him that they just can't do because of the size difference. Hell, I have less of an issue with people saying they don't see him as a #1 WR (even though he is), because everyone is entitled to their opinion of what they see. But when you start to spout off things that prove you clearly haven't watched near enough of his tape (if any at all), then yea, I'm going to call it out for the nonsense that it is.

So... your argument is to not look at stats... and then talk about his stats? First things first, his stats aren't propped up by one game. Remove that one 300 yard game from his stats and he still had just over 1,000 yards on the season while still being 20th in the nation in yards, and of course then while playing one less game. Hell, if he even "only" had 165 yards in his big game instead of 300, he still would have finished 3rd in the nation in yards without those extra 135 yards. Remove Hunter's biggest game from his season and he drops just below 1,000 yards. So to say T-Mac's stats are artificially inflated because of one big game is just inherently flawed from the start. You also say his stats are against a weak schedule, but how about looking at last year when Arizona played 7 ranked teams and he had 1,400 yards and 10 TDs (including 688 and 5 in the games against the ranked teams). He also did that last year while we had another WR who had 90 rec, 850 yds, and 13 TDs on that team. Which again points back to what I've been saying all year for people who clearly haven't watched enough of his film from both this and last season. This team was a MESS, from every standpoint, the fact that he even put up the stats he did this year was ridiculous. That mess was compounded by having no other offensive threats for the defense to pay any attention to and allowed them to double/triple cover T-Mac constantly. Just your point of him being a redzone asset but not getting a lot of TDs shows how little you watched of him/Arizona this year, as we just weren't in the red zone all that often because we were a terrible team. It also shows you don't know him best because again, as good as he is in the red zone (and yes he is great), what he's best at is as a downfield big play threat. Even beyond that, half the time when we were in the red zone, the defense wouldn't even hide it and just line up 2 DB's in front of him so they couldn't throw to him if they wanted to. When they did put single coverage on him, it was usually a TD (see the UCF TD he had against someone I believe is a decently rated CB prospect, the guy got a PI flag and T-Mac still tipped the ball to himself and caught it for a TD). That you don't think he moves like those other guys you listed is also comical. He's more smooth, fluid, agile, etc, than Mike Evans (Evans is bigger/stronger than him, but T-Mac is more of an athlete than him). Even Colston and Sutton, he's faster than those guys as well. All 3 of them ran the 40 at the combine OVER 4.5 seconds, when T-Mac runs it sub 4.5 (as he will), are people still going to keep saying this nonsense that he isn't fast enough for them? When people say this kinda stuff about him not moving well, it's just a clear cut sign that they haven't watched him play enough. He's regularly used in the screen and short crossing route game just to get the ball in his hands and let him get YAC. He was 5th in the Big 12 in YAC this year, not bad for a possession WR who doesn't have enough speed or agility to his game like people here love to say about him.

And this is all exactly why Hunter isn't even on my draft board. I don't think he's going to be happy when a team won't let him play full time both sides of the ball. And when that team plays him on defense and the offense is struggling, he's going to be even more of a diva because he's going to be upset that he's not getting offensive snaps. Just avoid.

Don't get me wrong, he's great at the 10 yard crossing routes to pick up a first down, his big body and hands allow him to excel doing that. But the thing he does best is make big plays downfield because of his ability to make contested catches, he's a guy that you can throw to even when he's covered and have a decent chance of him coming down with the ball over the defenders. Thielen is a possession WR, T-Mac is nothing like him. The popular comps are Evans, London, Higgins because they are all current players, but to me, he's always reminded me of AJ Green, who again, is no possession WR

To my point about the numbers T-Mac would have put up if he was there instead of Hunter T-Mac had 84 rec, 1,319 yds, 8 TDs Hunter had 92 rec, 1,152 yds, 14 TDs Shedeur had 1,000 more yards and 17 more TDs than T-Mac's QB... on only 24 more attempts on the entire season. The 2nd highest receiving yardage by any Arizona player was a WR with 323 yards, after that it was a RB with 245 and a TE with 217... nobody else had over 196. Colorado had WRs with 880, 617, 617, 434, 277, and 216 Arizona had 10 receiving TDs other than T-Mac... Colorado had 21 other than Hunter T-Mac also only had 5% more of Arizona's catches than Hunter had, so it's not like you can say T-Mac's numbers are because of volume. They spread the ball around plenty, but there was nobody else who could make plays or even scare the defense into not sending extra guys T-Mac's way. Put him in that offense with a better QB, scheme, and other WRs to make sure he can't be double or tripled on every single snap, the numbers he'd have put up would have been absolutely crazy and people would be talking about him as the second coming.

Yep, and as I just said in my previous post, I didn't expect him to win it, his stats have been depressed all year because of the team. Put T-Mac in that Colorado offense this year though and he's putting up bigger numbers than Hunter did. He had more yards and yards per catch than him on a worse team with nobody else to take coverage from him and a worse QB, he's have crushed it in Colorado.

I honestly didn't think T-Mac was going to win the award anyways, but it being Hunter is absolutely shocking to me and makes literally zero sense. Nash won the triple crown, he lead the nation in catches, yards, and TDs (as well as having more yards per reception than Hunter too). I'm not collegiate historian, but I have a feeling it's very rare for any player to win the triple crown in college, just far too many players out there putting up video game numbers at this level for someone to be tops in all 3. I said all year how T-Mac's stats were being held back by his QB play, play calling, and overall state of the team. That he still was 3rd in the nation in yards was ridiculous if you watched every Arizona game this year and saw how much of a mess we were (especially compared to last year).

Exactly I'd love to draft a Center in say the 3rd round, which is where you can find rookie starting Centers a lot of times. But if we go T-Mac in the 1st like I hope, even if we spend all our cap room on defense, it's only going to fill so many holes and I think using both our 2nd and 3rd rounders on defense there would make more sense than using one on a Center at the moment. If the right one falls to the 4th, I'm not against that either, but not sure if we're going to get a rookie starter at that point, and if we're not, I'd rather use that on a fast twitch slot WR or go for a DB or ILB at that point in the draft (after hopefully using the 2nd and 3rd to get pass rushers and/or another DT who is good against the run). Also wouldn't be against packaging up multiple 4-6 round picks if it can get us another 3rd rounder if we see a Center there that we like. We might not have any 6ths right now, but with a 4th, three 5ths, and three 7ths, we probably have the ammo to get another 3rd if there is someone we want.

uh, where to begin XL will never be the player T-Mac will be, so not taking him because we have XL and would need contracts around the same time would be an asinine reason to not draft a player of T-Mac's potential You talk about how rookies need time to develop, well rookies on the defensive side of the ball usually take longer to develop than elite WR prospects, so going back to your other post about drafting defense and spending the cap on a WR, it's just backwards for who will be more ready to contribute from day one. And no, paying Higgins doesn't help Bryce more, as T-Mac is already equally as good as him, if not already better. And Higgins doesn't have T-Mac's hands, in fact, not many current NFL WR's do, he has vice grips covered in glue for hands. But more importantly, to your point about Higgins doing everything T-Mac can do but faster... uh, Higgins ran a 4.59, he's not a speedster, I would bet my bottom dollar that T-Mac runs a sub 4.5 40 at the combine. You seem to think he's just a contested catch guy, but he's not, he is regularly used in the screen and short crossing route game because he is actually really good after the catch. I again go back to, if these are your opinions of T-Mac, it means you haven't watched enough of him. Even if you want defense over WR, that's a much more fair argument, but your comparison of him to Higgins and thinking paying Higgins 30 million a year instead of drafting T-Mac is smarter, just makes no sense (and that's before even factoring in Higgins injury history).