Fox can't win without Seifert's picks

[Jangler]

Aww man, you didn't neg him did you?

[1789Cardiac Cats9020]

Nah..not worth it

[jpo287]

Dude, I commend you for fighting so hard to support your ....idea....but it doesn't mean your idea isn't foolish. 12-4......was achieved with only Julius Peppers as the original remaining Panthers defensive lineman.

1 winning season out of four is hardly anything to get excited about. And in case you forgot, their defense started bleeding like a sieve half way through last season and has continued through this season.

The worst part of it all is, you actually conveniently omit the gems like Beason, Davis, Harris, Kemo......all players that I feel were better than their Seifert counterparts with the exception of Kemo. What about Gross and our O-line?

I addressed all those players as they were brought up in responses...just like I'm responding to you. Like I said earlier, Beason and Davis are good replacements but it cost two first round picks to get them. And while I like Harris, I would hardly say he's shown much since his first season. He certainly isn't a "gem". And KEMO is nothing more than a big body. Granted he is good at taking up space--but that's it. Again, hardly a "gem".

The worst part of it is you claim not to be slamming Fox, yet you are here saying basically..had it not been for his predecessor, he would have put together a team of scrubs. You don't like where this team is headed, when the most recent seasonal record we had was an NFC South championship. You make no sense, no logic, you simply wanted to start a thread, and now you're seeing the people on this forum aren't as gullible or easily convinced of idiotic ranting, as you'd like to believe.

Again, 1 winning season out of 4 tells me the team is headed in the wrong direction. Maybe you like only going to the playoffs once every four years and then getting blown out--I don't. As far as logic, I looked up his record and the roster. I noted how the wins have vanished as the original players have left and claimed there was a causal relationship between the two. Seems logical to me. To me, calling Harris is a "gem" and defending your statement with single winning season out of four is more "idiotic rambling" than my statements.

Mods...we need a good solid neg rep system. It won't cure the foolishness, but hey..it's a start

On that we agree.

[jpo287]

Also worth remembering that Fields didn't play in the 2003 Super Bowl season.

What this thread ignores is that the guy who was in charge of college scouting under Seifert remained so under Fox up through 2005. After what was arguably one of the worst drafts in team history, he went on to the Rams (who have sucked ever since).

From 2006 on, Don Gregory's been running that end of the show, and the results have been mostly good. Marc Koncz was running the pro scouting under Seifert, and still is.

First, regardless of who's heading up the scouting, it's still ultimately Fox/Hurney who make the choices. Secondly, it's not so much the players they picked, but the positions they are picking.

Currently, the linebackers position consist or two 1st round picks and two 3rd round picks. That's 4 quality draft picks used for 3 starting position. The D-line in comparison has only had one 1st round pick, one 2nd round and one 3rd round used on it. That's only 3 quality picks for 4 staring positions. They did pick up Kemo as a FA but the other players were released by other teams. Their safety picks are always project/transplants and I don't think I need to bring up the receivers position. Two first round picks on RB's but none on receivers. Again, it's not necessarily who they pick, but the position they are picking for.

[1789Cardiac Cats9020]

1 winning season out of four is hardly anything to get excited about. And in case you forgot, their defense started bleeding like a sieve half way through last season and has continued through this season.

I addressed all those players as they were brought up in responses...just like I'm responding to you. Like I said earlier, Beason and Davis are good replacements but it cost two first round picks to get them. And while I like Harris, I would hardly say he's shown much since his first season. He certainly isn't a "gem". And KEMO is nothing more than a big body. Granted he is good at taking up space--but that's it. Again, hardly a "gem".

Again, 1 winning season out of 4 tells me the team is headed in the wrong direction. Maybe you like only going to the playoffs once every four years and then getting blown out--I don't. As far as logic, I looked up his record and the roster. I noted how the wins have vanished as the original players have left and claimed there was a causal relationship between the two. Seems logical to me. To me, calling Harris is a "gem" and defending your statement with single winning season out of four is more "idiotic rambling" than my statements.

On that we agree.

1 season out of 4? Did I miss something? We made the superbowl under Fox with the likes of Julius Peppers and Deshaun Foster....we made it to another NFC championship game with the likes of Drew Carter, Foster again and heck....Marlon McCree....and then last season we went 12-4. Get your facts straight. This "One" winning season you happen to disclaim just happens to be the best record in Panthers history....

[mr beauxjangles]

Your argument has had so many holes blown through it that it doesn't even resemble an argument anymore.

[Mr. Scot]

First, regardless of who's heading up the scouting, it's still ultimately Fox/Hurney who make the choices. Secondly, it's not so much the players they picked, but the positions they are picking.

Currently, the linebackers position consist or two 1st round picks and two 3rd round picks. That's 4 quality draft picks used for 3 starting position. The D-line in comparison has only had one 1st round pick, one 2nd round and one 3rd round used on it. That's only 3 quality picks for 4 staring positions. They did pick up Kemo as a FA but the other players were released by other teams. Their safety picks are always project/transplants and I don't think I need to bring up the receivers position. Two first round picks on RB's but none on receivers. Again, it's not necessarily who they pick, but the position they are picking for.

Your original point was that he needed Seifert's picks. It just doesn't fly.

Also worth noting that the best regular season record in Panthers history was achieved under Fox in the third year removed from Tony Softli's influence. And the playoff meltdown that followed had a lot more to do with the coaches and a free agent pickup than it did any draft pick.

[pantherj]

brenston buckner > damione lewis

[Mr. Scot]

In his prime? Yeah.

In 2006? Not really.

[pantherj]

I don't mean old fart Buckner, he held on every other play.

[jpo287]

I don't mean old fart Buckner, he held on every other play.

I can't argue with that.

[jpo287]

1 season out of 4? Did I miss something? We made the superbowl under Fox with the likes of Julius Peppers and Deshaun Foster....we made it to another NFC championship game with the likes of Drew Carter, Foster again and heck....Marlon McCree....and then last season we went 12-4. Get your facts straight. This "One" winning season you happen to disclaim just happens to be the best record in Panthers history....

Go back and reread the original post. I gave him props for his first four years. I mentioned the 2 winning seasons, 7 playoff appearances, etc., etc. But those 4 years were built upon a roster he inherited with some great FA additions his first two years--and yes he does get credit for Delhomme, Davis, Peppers and Gross. But that 4 year run was 4 years ago. In his last 4 years, he has only had 1 wining season and has only gone to 1 playoff game. It's the last 4 years that give me concern and the difference between the first four years and the last four years is the roster--particularly with the defense.

[megadeth078]

Did we not go 12-4 last season?

[jpo287]

Your original point was that he needed Seifert's picks. It just doesn't fly.

Also worth noting that the best regular season record in Panthers history was achieved under Fox in the third year removed from Tony Softli's influence. And the playoff meltdown that followed had a lot more to do with the coaches and a free agent pickup than it did any draft pick.

The original post states his success was built upon the players already on the roster. As those players have left, so have the wins. Yes, they did win 12 games last year but that's one season out of the last 4.

What I see is a team with a great O-line and running backs. Yes, that's all Fox/Hurney. But at what cost. He still has the exact same receivers he inherited, no QB prospect behind Delhomme whatsoever, the D-line is in disarray, the only quality DE he has publicly stated he did not want to play for the Panthers and is only here because he was forced to stay at great cost, the safety spot has been a concern for at least 3 seasons now and it still hasn't been addressed adequately. I know drafts and FA deals are hit-or-miss but there are some serious holes on the roster--it's brittle

One last thing; Steve Smith is one of the last players still playing that Fox inherited. If Smith were to get injured and not be able to play (God forbid), how good do you think the offense would be? Fox has had 8 opportunities through the draft and free agency to find someone able to compliment him but there's nothing or no one there. Or at least, there is no one there that I am aware of.