LaDainian Tomlinson on the Panthers offense

[JARROD]

17 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Are you sure you read it, because it doesn't say what you think it does.

You linked an article that gives a quick blurb on each head coach's base philosophies and highlights a favorite play, then tried to make that say something it doesn't.

It's a fun read, but it's not trying to make a statement.

I hear ya, not trying to make it more than it is but the point is that there are no coaches in the nfl that conform to one pure system. They add, evolve, etc 

I still say there are much better offensive innovators out there that would do a much better job with Cam.

andrew luck for example had Chud for years— his stats are pretty impressive,..

Cams were under Chud,..

we just didn’t have the defense we needed for that level of aggression. Ron got it in 2013 but Shula was of course much more of a face man for Rons conservative nature.

the point there is Chud was able to allow cam to have some real timing, threw Steve smith open on timing routes on many occasions.

that doesn’t support this anti cam passer narrative people keep trying to sell, so it gets forgotten.

[Mr. Scot]

8 minutes ago, JARROD said:

I hear ya, not trying to make it more than it is but the point is that there are no coaches in the nfl that conform to one pure system. They add, evolve, etc 

I still say there are much better offensive innovators out there that would do a much better job with Cam.

andrew luck for example had Chud for years— his stats are pretty impressive,..

Cams were under Chud,..

we just didn’t have the defense we needed for that level of aggression. Ron got it in 2013 but Shula was of course much more of a face man for Rons conservative nature.

the point there is Chud was able to allow cam to have some real timing, threw Steve smith open on timing routes on many occasions.

that doesn’t support this anti cam passer narrative people keep trying to sell, so it gets forgotten.

See above. There never was.

Coaches have always operated within the rules of their systems, but they're not slaves to them. There's no defined list of Coryell plays that you're not allowed to deviate from. It's all conceptual, and it always has been. This isn't something that just came about in 2018.

Now with that said, players have different skill sets don't always fit within certain attacks. You wouldn't take a Devin Funchess and put him in a West Coast offense. He doesn't fit. In a Coryell system though? Sure, especially in one run by a guy like Turner who loves big receivers.

And again, none of this is an insult to Cam Newton.

[JARROD]

On 10/15/2018 at 11:13 AM, Mr. Scot said:

I get that a lot of people like the hurry up offense idea. I would add one caution to that.

The downside of hurry up offenses is that they don't give defenses much time to rest. Given the state of our defense right now, that's something to think about.

I agree— at Auburn Cam would run the no huddle, but sometimes it was right up until the playclock, and sometimes it was hurried...

i think Cam should run no huddle but the tempo can be varied by situation—

thats how many coaches including Pederson, Belicheck, Sean McVae and others have said they adapted Chip Kelly’s concepts.

there is no always or the only way— it’s just meshing concepts to be used at the right moments. 

[Mr. Scot]

12 minutes ago, JARROD said:

I agree— at Auburn Cam would run the no huddle, but sometimes it was right up until the playclock, and sometimes it was hurried...

i think Cam should run no huddle but the tempo can be varied by situation—

thats how many coaches including Pederson, Belicheck, Sean McVae and others have said they adapted Chip Kelly’s concepts.

there is no always or the only way— it’s just meshing concepts to be used at the right moments. 

No, but there are good ideas and bad ideas.

If Gus Malzahn took over the Saints, I'm sure you could try very hard to adapt his offense so that Drew Brees could run it, but that wouldn't exactly be the best use of his time and resources.

Mind you, I don't know that Turner is trying to turn Newton into a "three-step, plant and throw" passer. In the offseason talk was that Norv was going to work in what Newton did best. Watching the offense over the last few weeks though, it feels more like Newton's the one being asked to adapt.

All of this is speculation, of course. None of us really knows what's going on back there. I doubt Tomlinson does either. He knows Turner, but there's no indication that he's talked to him about this. 

[JARROD]

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

No, but there are good ideas and bad ideas.

If Gus Malzahn took over the Saints, I'm sure you could try very hard to adapt his offense so that Drew Brees could run it, but that wouldn't exactly be the best use of his time and resources.

Mind you, I don't know that Turner is trying to turn Newton into a "three-step, plant and throw" passer. In the offseason talk was that Norv was going to work in what Newton did best. Watching the offense over the last few weeks though, it feels more like Newton's the one being asked to adapt.

All of this is speculation, of course. None of us really knows what's going on back there. I doubt Tomlinson does either. He knows Turner, but there's no indication that he's talked to him about this. 

That would be an interesting debate— is a coach so glued to his system that he wouldn’t mold and evolve to help Drew Brees be the best he can be?  Some would be for sure, others wouldn’t. That wasn’t my post though,.

my post on this one was in regards to up tempo the whole game... it puts a lot of pressure on your defense with the NFLs short play clock,.. even if the drives are resulting in points every time, you put your defense on the field a lot,..

so I said some teams, Patriots, Eagles, Vikings and others vary their tempo,.. even when they go to a no huddle, the tempo still is varied.

 

[bigdavis]

19 hours ago, iamhubby1 said:

 

    So, you can use punctuation. 

That's what I call a severe aversion to run-on sentences.

[Mr. Scot]

22 minutes ago, JARROD said:

That would be an interesting debate— is a coach so glued to his system that he wouldn’t mold and evolve to help Drew Brees be the best he can be?  Some would be for sure, others wouldn’t. That wasn’t my post though,.

my post on this one was in regards to up tempo the whole game... it puts a lot of pressure on your defense with the NFLs short play clock,.. even if the drives are resulting in points every time, you put your defense on the field a lot,..

so I said some teams, Patriots, Eagles, Vikings and others vary their tempo,.. even when they go to a no huddle, the tempo still is varied.

 

Tempo and timing aren't the same thing though.

You can run an up tempo offense no matter what scheme you use; Coryell, WCO, E-P, Zone Read, Spread, whatever. It's just a matter of getting the play call in, getting to the line and making the snap.

The timing that Tomlinson is talking about is where the quarterback drops back 3, 5, or 7 steps, plants and throws the to an assigned spot or receiver. it's all based on precision, rhythm and structure.

Mechanical quarterbacks like Brees and Manning (guys whose passing mechanics look identical from one pass to the next) thrive in those sorts of systems. Stick them in a situation that's more "wing it" though, and they're less effective, but guys like Newton and Roethlisberger are ideal.

Can you adapt those guys to systems that don't fit their skill sets? You can certainly try, but it's generally more efficient and effective to just find a guy that works with what you do.

[bigdavis]

23 minutes ago, JARROD said:

That would be an interesting debate— is a coach so glued to his system that he wouldn’t mold and evolve to help Drew Brees be the best he can be?  Some would be for sure, others wouldn’t. That wasn’t my post though,.

my post on this one was in regards to up tempo the whole game... it puts a lot of pressure on your defense with the NFLs short play clock,.. even if the drives are resulting in points every time, you put your defense on the field a lot,..

so I said some teams, Patriots, Eagles, Vikings and others vary their tempo,.. even when they go to a no huddle, the tempo still is varied.

 

Kudos to you and Mr. Scot for a reasoned, civil, and informative back and forth discussion.  It's uncommon around here, and much appreciated by the saner minds.

[Mr. Scot]

3 minutes ago, bigdavis said:

Kudos to you and Mr. Scot for a reasoned, civil, and informative back and forth discussion.  It's uncommon around here, and much appreciated by the saner minds.

Eeehhh, bite me 

[bigdavis]

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

Eeehhh, bite me 

Cut the sweet talk, bub.

[Mr. Scot]

Speaking of sweet talk, here's one further illustration for the sake of clarity.

Let's say you're a figure skating coach. You've got two skaters: one is the Tonya Harding type (minus the kneecapping issues) all power, flash and tricks. The other girl is more like a Nancy Kerrigan or a Katarina Witt; all grace, elegance and artistry.

Now you could ask girl number two to perform a routine full of jumps and tricks, and you can ask number one  to do something artistic based on a classic ballet. And heck, maybe you're even a good enough coach to teach them some things that are outside of their comfort zone.

But why?

Why spend all that extra effort when you could just get them to do what you know they already do well, especially knowing that you can win with either approach?

To me, that just sounds more like an exercise in ego than it does sound decision making.

[bigdavis]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Speaking of sweet talk, here's one further illustration for the sake of clarity.

Let's say you're a figure skating coach. You've got two skaters: one is the Tonya Harding type (minus the kneecapping issues) all power, flash and tricks. The other girl is more like a Nancy Kerrigan or a Katarina Witt; all grace, elegance and artistry.

Now you could ask girl number two to perform a routine full of jumps and tricks, and you can ask number one  to do something artistic based on a classic ballet. And heck, maybe you're even a good enough coach to teach them some things that are outside of their comfort zone.

But why?

Why spend all that extra effort when you could just get them to do what you know they already do well, especially knowing that you can win with either approach?

To me, that just sounds more like an exercise in ego than it does sound decision making.

Personally, I don't need any "further illustrations."  I got, and was sincere in appreciating what you were saying. the first time. Did you think I was being sarcastic?

[Mr. Scot]

Just now, bigdavis said:

Personally, I don't need any "further illustrations."  I got, and was sincere in appreciating what you were saying. the first time. Did you think I was being sarcastic?

Nah. Not really directed at you. I just thought of that analogy and wanted to throw it out there.

I mean, how often do you get to use figure skating analogies on a football message board? 

[bigdavis]

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

Nah. Not really directed at you. I just thought of that analogy and wanted to throw it out there.

I mean, how often do you get to use figure skating analogies on a football message board? 

I suggest you don't try it again.  Probably half the posters here never heard of any of those gals, and the other half are suspicious of us that we did.