7th round pick, NFL minimum salary PK Harrison Butker

[Immortal]

It wasn't even about Gano being better in practice. Butker had great competition with him as a ROOKIE vs a what 8 year vet?

 

It was more about loyalty and showing favor in a player. Its fuging weird that we do that with Gano and not Thomas Davis or Steve. It was like a pat on the back for Gano that we believe in him giving him another chance. Thomas Davis has proven again and again he's one of the top LBs in the NFL. Yeah some unseen qualities we don't see like leadership and toughness. Someone will get mad at this post...

[Porn Shop Clerk]

A lot of us knew it was a mistake to keep Gano over Butker.  Not sure why that would hurt someone's feelings.

[Porn Shop Clerk]

I'm starting to think Gano has several alts on the Huddle, based on his twitter meltdowns.

[MasterAwesome]

1 hour ago, tiger7_88 said:

Your basic philosophy above is a Ron Rivera mantra... the utter and unquestioning fear of CHANGE.

NOTHING about Butker is similar to the Aguayo situation (one was a 2nd round pick, one was a 7th).

NOTHING about how Butker practiced or how he played in the pre-season pointed to "Aguayo".

He was drafted for a reason, to save the team millions of dollars that was being spent on a kicker that could be used at other positions (with important players contracts winding down).

The entire question came down to keep an overpaid kicker of questionable consistency or take a risk on a rookie with a strong leg.  Give that rookie about 90% of the chances in preseason games against actual hostile competition and see what he can do.  If can only make about 60% of his preseason kicks, then you have no reason to trust him.

Oh, wait... that was GANO's fg percentage in the 2017 pre-season.  My bad.  GIVE THAT MAN ANOTHER RAISE!

And then Gano proceeded to have one of the best FG percentages in league history, with ~97% lol.

I already said I agreed that Butker should have been given more opportunities in the preseason...but to suggest he should have been given 90% of attempts is ridiculous. Butker was drafted to provide competition at the kicker position...again you’re giving way too much credit to an unproven 7th round kicker (at the time). In an honest competition, each player should be given roughly half the opportunities. If I’m not mistaken, Gano had surgery in the off-season on his plant foot...so a fair competition was warranted at that point.

Butker being a 7th round pick vs. a 2nd round pick doesn’t exactly help your case...the point is, Aguayo was supposedly a sure thing and busted epically. Butker was a 7th rounder with higher bust potential so to act like it was a no-brainer to hand a 7th round rookie kicker the starting job after struggling in training camp is absurd. Aguayo was a recent cautionary tale to show exactly why you don’t hand a rookie kicker the starting job.

[thefuzz]

12 hours ago, MasterAwesome said:

And then Gano proceeded to have one of the best FG percentages in league history, with ~97% lol.

I already said I agreed that Butker should have been given more opportunities in the preseason...but to suggest he should have been given 90% of attempts is ridiculous. Butker was drafted to provide competition at the kicker position...again you’re giving way too much credit to an unproven 7th round kicker (at the time). In an honest competition, each player should be given roughly half the opportunities. If I’m not mistaken, Gano had surgery in the off-season on his plant foot...so a fair competition was warranted at that point.

Butker being a 7th round pick vs. a 2nd round pick doesn’t exactly help your case...the point is, Aguayo was supposedly a sure thing and busted epically. Butker was a 7th rounder with higher bust potential so to act like it was a no-brainer to hand a 7th round rookie kicker the starting job after struggling in training camp is absurd. Aguayo was a recent cautionary tale to show exactly why you don’t hand a rookie kicker the starting job.

When you have a QB on his rookie deal, and cheap young players on offense and defense, you can afford to overpay dumb positions like kicker, fullback, and ST gunners.  When you have a franchise QB on his 2nd contract, along with a very expensive MLB, DT, OT, G, OLB, etc....you have to find savings in other places....such as kicker.

Marty Hurney does not understand roster building, and Ron can't identify talent until it is literally staring him in the face, and pooping on his chest.

To add to those issues, Ron and Hurney are seemingly in agreement on most things, and have been guaranteed their jobs for far too long.  The ghost of Jerry Richardson still haunts this franchise.

[MasterAwesome]

7 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

When you have a QB on his rookie deal, and cheap young players on offense and defense, you can afford to overpay dumb positions like kicker, fullback, and ST gunners.  When you have a franchise QB on his 2nd contract, along with a very expensive MLB, DT, OT, G, OLB, etc....you have to find savings in other places....such as kicker.

Marty Hurney does not understand roster building, and Ron can't identify talent until it is literally staring him in the face, and pooping on his chest.

To add to those issues, Ron and Hurney are seemingly in agreement on most things, and have been guaranteed their jobs for far too long.  The ghost of Jerry Richardson still haunts this franchise.

Yes, I know...I’m not saying that I love having so much money tied into our kicker position. What you just said can apply to any position on the team. Of course you can replace any position with a cheaper option...but not at the expense of losing games if that cheaper option turns out to be a sizeable downgrade, which could easily have been the case since Butker was a huge unknown. If we’re simply just trying to replace Gano with a cheaper option, there are countless FA kickers for which we can accomplish that. Even if you want to roll the dice on an unknown college kicker, there is a countless supply of those as well.

My mind is blown as to how you can call a kicker a “dumb position” when so many games are won and lost by a kicker. Just ask the Bears how dumb of a position a kicker is...or on the other end of the spectrum, ask the Rams.

[thefuzz]

3 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Yes, I know...I’m not saying that I love having so much money tied into our kicker position. What you just said can apply to any position on the team. Of course you can replace any position with a cheaper option...but not at the expense of losing games if that cheaper option turns out to be a sizeable downgrade, which could easily have been the case since Butker was a huge unknown. If we’re simply just trying to replace Gano with a cheaper option, there are countless FA kickers for which we can accomplish that. Even if you want to roll the dice on an unknown college kicker, there is a countless supply of those as well.

My mind is blown as to how you can call a kicker a “dumb position” when so many games are won and lost by a kicker. Just ask the Bears how dumb of a position a kicker is...or on the other end of the spectrum, ask the Rams.

Yes, I will ask the Bears, hang on.

Oh, they said it's pretty stupid to pay inconsistent kickers top dollar, as their number 4 highest paid kicker just cost them a playoff game.

 

[thefuzz]

8 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Yes, I know...I’m not saying that I love having so much money tied into our kicker position. What you just said can apply to any position on the team. Of course you can replace any position with a cheaper option...but not at the expense of losing games if that cheaper option turns out to be a sizeable downgrade, which could easily have been the case since Butker was a huge unknown. If we’re simply just trying to replace Gano with a cheaper option, there are countless FA kickers for which we can accomplish that. Even if you want to roll the dice on an unknown college kicker, there is a countless supply of those as well.

My mind is blown as to how you can call a kicker a “dumb position” when so many games are won and lost by a kicker. Just ask the Bears how dumb of a position a kicker is...or on the other end of the spectrum, ask the Rams.

As to the dumb position thing, what I mean is you can afford to overpay for certain positions when you are getting players like Luke and Cam and Turner and KK on cheap rookie deals.

You can't pay kickers and fullbacks top dollar when those guys start making money, and in our cases....big money.  You just can't, but we did, like we always have.

 

[MasterAwesome]

7 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

Yes, I will ask the Bears, hang on.

Oh, they said it's pretty stupid to pay inconsistent kickers top dollar, as their number 4 highest paid kicker just cost them a playoff game.

 

Yeah, you’re arguing “don’t overpay bad/inconsistent players”...that has nothing to do with the value of the kicker position. On the contrary, that reinforces their value. That’s like saying WR is a dumb position and they shouldn’t be paid top dollar because Alshon Jeffrey dropped that pass against the Saints in the playoffs.

[thefuzz]

3 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Yeah, you’re arguing “don’t overpay bad/inconsistent players”...that has nothing to do with the value of the kicker position. On the contrary, that reinforces their value. That’s like saying WR is a dumb position and they shouldn’t be paid top dollar because Alshon Jeffrey dropped that pass against the Saints in the playoffs.

Most WR's don't get the yips.  Outside of a very select few, the kicker position is just too inconsistent to overpay for their services, unless you have a large portion on rookie deals.

Gano has been average his entire career, yet we paid him twice like Adam Vinatieri.

[MasterAwesome]

13 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

As to the dumb position thing, what I mean is you can afford to overpay for certain positions when you are getting players like Luke and Cam and Turner and KK on cheap rookie deals.

You can't pay kickers and fullbacks top dollar when those guys start making money, and in our cases....big money.  You just can't, but we did, like we always have.

 

Why exactly can you not “overpay” a kicker vs. these other positions? What is your logic? Kickers are arguably the best value considering their direct impact on games vs. how much they make. “Overpaying” a kicker can simply mean an extra $500,000-$1 million per year compared to his peers. There is very little standard deviation between kicker contracts...the difference between the highest paid kicker and the tenth highest paid kicker is less than $700,000 per year. If you overpay a LT (like Matt Kalil), that’s how you end up screwing over your salary cap...not spending an extra $500,000 on a kicker.

Hell, who do you think the highest paid kicker in the league is? Gostkowski for the Patriots...the winningest franchise in the modern era and who most people would say is the embodiment of how a franchise should be run. They are notorious for not overpaying for their own players and opting to let them leave in Free Agency, and yet they award their kicker with the top contract at the position. What does that tell you about the value of that position?

[thefuzz]

2 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Why exactly can you not “overpay” a kicker vs. these other positions? What is your logic? Kickers are arguably the best value considering their direct impact on games vs. how much they make. “Overpaying” a kicker can simply mean an extra $500,000-$1 million per year compared to his peers. There is very little standard deviation between kicker contracts...the difference between the highest paid kicker and the tenth highest paid kicker is less than $700,000 per year. If you overpay a LT (like Matt Kalil), that’s how you end up screwing over your salary cap...not spending an extra $500,000 on a kicker.

Hell, who do you think the highest paid kicker in the league is? Gostkowski for the Patriots...the winningest franchise in the modern era and who most people would say is the embodiment of how a franchise should be run. They are notorious for not overpaying for their own players and opting to let them leave in Free Agency, and yet they award their kicker with the top contract at the position. What does that tell you about the value of that position?

I cannot believe that I'm still arguing about a stupid ass decision but here I am.

The difference in Gano's cap hit, and what Butkers would have been is about 3 Million dollars in 18.  And another 3M in 19.

6,000,000.00 in cap space created over two years by keeping a kicker on the roster that is younger, and just as accurate, if not more than Gano.

To help you a little more, had we kept Butker and cut Torrey Smith, we could have afforded to keep Star or Norwell on the team this year.  That's a big fuging deal.

The Pats can afford to overpay their kicker because they get good value at other positions all over the field.  

[Toomers]

35 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Yes, I know...I’m not saying that I love having so much money tied into our kicker position. What you just said can apply to any position on the team. Of course you can replace any position with a cheaper option...but not at the expense of losing games if that cheaper option turns out to be a sizeable downgrade, which could easily have been the case since Butker was a huge unknown. If we’re simply just trying to replace Gano with a cheaper option, there are countless FA kickers for which we can accomplish that. Even if you want to roll the dice on an unknown college kicker, there is a countless supply of those as well.

My mind is blown as to how you can call a kicker a “dumb position” when so many games are won and lost by a kicker. Just ask the Bears how dumb of a position a kicker is...or on the other end of the spectrum, ask the Rams.

Ask the Patriots? Who cut Viniteri. You can bring up every miss imaginable. But when the vet K has a defining characteristic of “inconsistent”, why keep him? If they were close, why keep the expensive one? We kept BOTH on the opening day roster. Why not just cut a 7th rounder? Who would have thought much about it? Not like a 2nd rounder you HAVE to give the job to. 

  Just another awful financial decision that has become so normal it’s expected. 

[Toomers]

11 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Why exactly can you not “overpay” a kicker vs. these other positions? What is your logic? Kickers are arguably the best value considering their direct impact on games vs. how much they make. “Overpaying” a kicker can simply mean an extra $500,000-$1 million per year compared to his peers. There is very little standard deviation between kicker contracts...the difference between the highest paid kicker and the tenth highest paid kicker is less than $700,000 per year. If you overpay a LT (like Matt Kalil), that’s how you end up screwing over your salary cap...not spending an extra $500,000 on a kicker.

Hell, who do you think the highest paid kicker in the league is? Gostkowski for the Patriots...the winningest franchise in the modern era and who most people would say is the embodiment of how a franchise should be run. They are notorious for not overpaying for their own players and opting to let them leave in Free Agency, and yet they award their kicker with the top contract at the position. What does that tell you about the value of that position?

  Really? How about the 5M in dead money if Gano stays “Gano”. Or are we going to be happy with his normal performance again? It’s not 500k? It’s about 3M a year. 

How about 9.3M for whatever Poe did last year? That feel worth it? 

How about 5M for Torrey Smith? Nice

 or the we either have to pay Greg Olsen 7M to play, or 7.4M to not. 

Any of those bringing value?